BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Lochias]

To wit: I admonished another poster for calling the leader of the Mormon faith, “Joe”. This dismissal of Joseph Smith was found offensive by our Mormon guests here on the CAFs, and I called the Catholic poster to task for that.

And for the record, I totally agree with calling him “Joe.” The guy contributed absolutely nothing of value to the world of religion. He was a crackpot, and ***history ***shows that rather starkly.

And, to your credit, you have received my gentle nudging with much greater grace than the previous poster.

I appreciate your candor. But religious leaders who mount attacks against the truth of the Faith, and therefore put souls in jeopardy, will always receive my scorn and derision. They’ve shown themselves to be unwise in the extreme.

 

[eddie_too]

if nothing else, the gospels and sacred tradition are PERFECTLY clear that Jesus rose body and soul from the dead. He ate with them. they touched Him.

hypothesize and rationalize to your hearts content, but it is and has been the firm and constant teaching of the Church founded by Jesus that Jesus’ body rose from the grave and encountered His followes physically.

Jesus, through His own will, defeated death. no other human being ever has or will do that.

it seems to me less than intelligent to give your allegiance to any human being other than the only human being to defeat death.

 

[eddie_too]

i fail to understand how it can be considered reasonable to believe that the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ in some manner detracts from the mystery of salvation He bring to all human beings.

the only reason i can fathom for denying the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ is to enable the deniers to continue in a false faith system.

for even the simplest of human beings can understand that it is the height of incoherence to give allegiance to another human being other than Christ when Christ is the sole human being to ever defeat death.

 

[Lochias]

if nothing else, the gospels and sacred tradition are PERFECTLY clear that Jesus rose body and soul from the dead. He ate with them. they touched Him.

hypothesize and rationalize to your hearts content, but it is and has been the firm and constant teaching of the Church founded by Jesus that Jesus’ body rose from the grave and encountered His followes physically.

Jesus, through His own will, defeated death. no other human being ever has or will do that.

it seems to me less than intelligent to give your allegiance to any human being other than the only human being to defeat death.

NOW we’re talkin’.

 

[daler]

I appreciate your candor. But religious leaders who mount attacks against the truth of the Faith, and therefore put souls in jeopardy, will always receive my scorn and derision. They’ve shown themselves to be unwise in the extreme.

. Jesus and all of His disciples were accused of mounting attacks against the truth of the Faith according to the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the Jews. They accused Him of being Beelzebub.

. Saul was self-righteous and certain that the Christians and Christ were all evil and wrong. He was a most learned scholar and highly educated and was present at the stoning of Stephen. Not until he was humbled on the road to Damascus and given a vision which transcended all his intellectual reasonings did he come to recognize Christ.

. The same hatred was shown Abraham when he was cast out of Ur. The same hatred was shown to Moses, and to Noah before Them. Manasseh had his own grand-father, the great Prophet Isaiah, sawn in half.

. “Consider the former generations. Witness how every time the Day Star of Divine bounty hath shed the light of His Revelation upon the world, the people of His Day have arisen against Him, and repudiated His truth. They who were regarded as the leaders of men have invariably striven to hinder their followers from turning unto Him Who is the Ocean of God’s limitless bounty.”

 

[eddie_too]

why should a christian believe that Jesus was NOT the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity?

the bahai preach that Jesus was just a holy man, not a divine being, similar to the founder of their religion.

christians would have to choose a holy man over a Perfect Man who was also a member of the infinite and eternal Godhead to believe what the bahai teach.

why would any sensible person choose to honor a man instead of worshipping a God-manr?

 

[daler]

if nothing else, the gospels and sacred tradition are PERFECTLY clear that Jesus rose body and soul from the dead. He ate with them. they touched Him.

hypothesize and rationalize to your hearts content, but it is and has been the firm and constant teaching of the Church founded by Jesus that Jesus’ body rose from the grave and encountered His followes physically.

Jesus, through His own will, defeated death. no other human being ever has or will do that.

it seems to me less than intelligent to give your allegiance to any human being other than the only human being to defeat death.

Eddie,
. If we are to place our belief solely in the literal telling of all of the stories which are told in the Bible then we are forced into denying science and reason, accepting that the earth was made in 6 days despite all that the Hubble Telescope, etc tell us. We must accept only literal understanding and deny the use of metaphorical traditions and the myths used universally in all human cultures. We are left to figure out how Noah put 2 of every creature on earth in a boat when obviously not tenth of a tenth of known species could fit even into a supertanker of today’s size. We must believe in talking snakes and all manner of unnatural occurrences.
. In reality, methods of story telling exist throughout the world and quite obviously existed in Jewish culture. There is, in fact, a purpose to couching the truth in fantastic stories which is intentional, for it leaves those of simple understanding to themselves while at the same time communicating a deeper message to those who are awake to receive it. This is why Jesus spoke in parables.
. By these means the sheep are separated from the goats. "Let them who have eyes see… "

 

[daler]

why should a christian believe that Jesus was NOT the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity?

the bahai preach that Jesus was just a holy man, not a divine being, similar to the founder of their religion.

christians would have to choose a holy man over a Perfect Man who was also a member of the infinite and eternal Godhead to believe what the bahai teach.

why would any sensible person choose to honor a man instead of worshipping a God-manr?

By no means to Baha’is teach that Jesus was “just a holy man”.

Please, if you wish to speak intelligibly and with accuracy on this Forum which was set up to aid people to know what the Baha’i Faith is and is not, do some reading, such as the following, which will answer your questions:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… why would Perfect Being become incarnate more than once? why could not Pefect Being provide humans all of the information they need in a single incarnation?
.

It’s not a question I’ve asked myself. Off the cuff:

1. because a perfect being inspired by the All-Knowing God would have more “information” than humanity could absorb all at once.
2. because some of the needs of humanity change as new challenges arise
3. because the language of symbols that is used to communicate, gets dated. Heaven is no longer just above is in the sky, for example, so some of the language that assumes a 3-tier universe no longer communicates very well

 

[Lochias]

Eddie,
. If we are to place our belief solely in the literal telling of all of the stories which are told in the Bible then we are forced into denying science and reason, accepting that the earth was made in 6 days despite all that the Hubble Telescope, etc tell us. We must accept only literal understanding and deny the use of metaphorical traditions and the myths used universally in all human cultures. We are left to figure out how Noah put 2 of every creature on earth in a boat when obviously not tenth of a tenth of known species could fit even into a supertanker of today’s size. We must believe in talking snakes and all manner of unnatural occurrences.
. In reality, methods of story telling exist throughout the world and quite obviously existed in Jewish culture. There is, in fact, a purpose to couching the truth in fantastic stories which is intentional, for it leaves those of simple understanding to themselves while at the same time communicating a deeper message to those who are awake to receive it. This is why Jesus spoke in parables.
. By these means the sheep are separated from the goats. "Let them who have eyes see… "

The deposit of Faith in the Catholic Church doesn’t reside solely in the Bible, nor do we take all the events therein as a literal re-telling. You’re misunderstanding a great deal about the Church and the Bible.

The Bible is a collection of many kinds of writing, some historical (and real), some poetic, some mythology, and other kinds, but there is a concrete and overarching truth to what all of these writings teach.

The Bible as we have it today is a product of the authority and Tradition of the Catholic Church, as can be traced back historically to its founding by Jesus himself.

You’re getting hung up on tiny things that make sense in a larger context. You’ve got a lot of learning to do, quite a lot indeed, before you can claim to understand what the Church teaches. You’ve got it all wrong, so far.

Jesus DID rise physically from the dead, however, and that is a truth that you must learn to accept if you’re going to converse with Catholics in any meaningful way. History, tradition and authority of the Church all agree on it, and no other explanation works in context.

 

[eddie_too]

i juxtaposed “holy man” with “Second Person of the Godhead”.

i do not care how the bahai define Jesus except that they deny that He is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

try to see the forest for the trees. i may not be the greatest at expressing myself in writing, but it seems a bit disingenuous to zero in on my using the term “holy man” when my post was primarily about the juxtaposition that exists between the bahai denying Jesus membership in the Godhead and christians accepting and focusing on that membership.

i repeat. it takes a huge amount of conceptual and logical gymnastices to decide to follow a mere man (no matter how much blessed by God" when one can choose to follow the God-man, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, almighty God Himself.

 

[daler]

i juxtaposed “holy man” with “Second Person of the Godhead”.

i do not care how the bahai define Jesus except that they deny that He is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

try to see the forest for the trees. i may not be the greatest at expressing myself in writing, but it seems a bit disingenuous to zero in on my using the term “holy man” when my post was primarily about the juxtaposition that exists between the bahai denying Jesus membership in the Godhead and christians accepting and focusing on that membership.

i repeat. it takes a huge amount of conceptual and logical gymnastices to decide to follow a mere man (no matter how much blessed by God" when one can choose to follow the God-man, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, almighty God Himself.

Eddie,
. The closest idea to the Trinity in the Baha’i Writings are expressed in the quotation below. You may find that the idea expresses the relationship very well that whatsoever pertains to Jesus, His Words, or His actions, are those of God Himself.
. We do not, however, believe that God incarnates Himself in this process. We cannot, for example, say that He is 5 foot 6 inches tall, weighs 150 pounds, and has brown hair. That would be describing the physical characteristics of a Prophet or Messenger of God, but not God, because God is beyond all description.

.No man hath seen God and lived."

. “Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.
. Some, deluded by their idle fancies, have conceived all created things as associates and partners of God, and imagined themselves to be the exponents of His unity. By Him Who is the one true God! Such men have been, and will continue to remain, the victims of blind imitation, and are to be numbered with them that have restricted and limited the conception of God.
. He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.
. The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”

 

[daler]

nor do we take all the events therein as a literal re-telling

The Bible is a collection of many kinds of writing, some historical (and real), some poetic, some mythology

The Bible as we have it today is a product of the authority and Tradition of the Catholic Church, as can be traced back historically to its founding by Jesus himself.

You’re getting hung up on tiny things that make sense in a larger context.

Jesus DID rise physically from the dead, however,

Lochias,
. I was raised with teachings very similar to your own, however, I have come to view these stories in light of reason as well as tradition. If we rely solely on tradition, then whoever interprets these traditions governs our thoughts, and I much prefer to think for myself rather than simply “accept” whatever I have been told.
. God gave all of us a mind that we might distinguish that which is real from that which is imaginary. There are many images in the stories of the Bible, some fantastic. As you say, you accept that not all are literal. How can they be? How could a being with eyes like fire, feet like brass, and a two-edged sword proceeding from His mouth be real?
. Yet these are the stories that we are told as they all come from the Bible. When Daniel had his visions and asked God what these things mean, he was told “It is not for you to know.” Their meaning would not be revealed until the time of the end. The same is true for the visions of John in Revelation. Even Jesus said.

. ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.…”

. Baha’is believe that as Jesus said He would come “as a thief in the night”, that His coming has indeed already taken place, and even as happened 2000 years ago, the last to discover this are those who have taken Scripture literally.

. Baha’u’llah is not “Jesus”, even as John the Baptist was not “Elijah”. But each had a similar function and purpose. Baha’u’llah was preceded by the Bab, Who appeared in essentially the same station as John did to Jesus.
. When the rose of last year dies, it is gone, yet we say that it has returned this spring, for it has the same purpose, which is to bring the beauty and fragrances to the garden.
. We say that the One Whom we have been expecting has appeared, and that this is evident in the Words He has brought, as well as by His deeds, and the prophecies He has fulfilled.
. This is not a shallow Faith to be compared to the various personality cults which arise from time to time. Even a brief study of the Writings of both the Bab and Baha’u’llah will soon lead one to an appreciation of the depth of knowledge and discernment each of these Souls had when expressing themselves.
. That they are opposed by those who have only a superficial grasp of the true nature and essential teachings is common to every preceding Revelation. Kindly open the following link and study it for awhile before making hasty judgment. It is only one page.
. Thank you,

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-34.html

 

[Lochias]

Lochias,
. I was raised with teachings very similar to your own, however, I have come to view these stories in light of reason as well as tradition. If we rely solely on tradition, then whoever interprets these traditions governs our thoughts, and I much prefer to think for myself rather than simply “accept” whatever I have been told.

Wrong again. Catholics do not rely solely on Tradition. You are misrepresenting our Catholic Faith.

We rely on Tradition, Scripture, and the Authority of the Church…a three-legged stool.

Further, many minds greater than either of ours have pondered theological questions and come to the inescapable conclusion that the Catholic Faith has it right. Your religion cannot draw on any well-developed sense of history, as can the Church.

I also find it really, really funny that on the one hand you’ll decry the need for an interpreter for religious truth, and then on the other follow a religious leader like the Bab. It reeks of hypocrisy. Your leader has only the authority he has given to himself; namely, none. We have over 2000 years of history and tradition on which to found our beliefs.

Your religion is the house built on sand; washed away with the changing of the tide. Ours is the house built on solid ground: understanding of history, Scripture, and the Authority of the Church.

 

[daler]

Wrong again. Catholics do not rely solely on Tradition. You are misrepresenting our Catholic Faith.

We rely on Tradition, Scripture, and the Authority of the Church…a three-legged stool.

Further, many minds greater than either of ours have pondered theological questions and come to the inescapable conclusion that the Catholic Faith has it right. Your religion cannot draw on any well-developed sense of history, as can the Church.

I also find it really, really funny that on the one hand you’ll decry the need for an interpreter for religious truth, and then on the other follow a religious leader like the Bab. It reeks of hypocrisy. Your leader has only the authority he has given to himself; namely, none. We have over 2000 years of history and tradition on which to found our beliefs.

Your religion is the house built on sand; washed away with the changing of the tide. Ours is the house built on solid ground: understanding of history, Scripture, and the Authority of the Church.

Lochias,
. The Jewish leadership and its followers used the same reasoning and held to literal interpretations, such as you are doing. It is fine if you wish to belittle the Faith of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. It will not change anything, but the manner in which you do so exposes only your own failure to study objectively its history and voluminous literature and teachings. It is clear that you are here to argue and attack, what your motives and purposes are, but to dedicate oneself from a position of ignorance without investigating and discovering the underlying truths is hardly commendable.
. Why don’t you take some time and visit bahai.org and do some serious research. This will be to your credit and add to your knowledge. Spend a few hours at this at least over the next few days and then report back to us. Ok, sport?
. If you research the topic well, you may soon discover how fully numerous prophecies have been fulfilled by the coming of the Bab in 1844 AD, which is also the year 1260 AH, in the land of Elam where Daniel’s vision occurred, exactly where Jeremiah said it would.
. I suggest anything written by Hushidar Motlagh. He did the most voluminous research on the subject, compiling over 25 years of credible scholarship.
. God bless
Daler

 

[Lochias]

Lochias,
. The Jewish leadership and its followers used the same reasoning and held to literal interpretations, such as you are doing. It is fine if you wish to belittle the Faith of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. It will not change anything, but the manner in which you do so exposes only your own failure to study objectively its history and voluminous literature and teachings. It is clear that you are here to argue and attack, what your motives and purposes are, but to dedicate oneself from a position of ignorance without investigating and discovering the underlying truths is hardly commendable.
. Why don’t you take some time and visit bahai.org and do some serious research. This will be to your credit and add to your knowledge. Spend a few hours at this at least over the next few days and then report back to us. Ok, sport?
God bless

Nope. This conversation is pointless, because you’re going to stick to something that’s already been pointed out to you as non-existent, right to the bitter end. Can’t talk to the deaf.

And…don’t call me sport. Okay, chum?

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PR,
. I think that perhaps you are missing something here. Surely, if the disciples had removed Jesus’ body from the tomb it was for good reason, to secure it to some place where they felt it would not be subject to desecration and further humiliation, having just witnessed the horrible manner in which He was put to death.

. I do not believe or accept any proposition that would indicate deceit on the part of the believers.

So who was it that proclaimed that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead?

 

[daler]

So who was it that proclaimed that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead?

PR,
. I think we have been over this. Our position is that the One Who said “Before Abraham was, I am” was resurrected in such a manner as to become apparent to many of His followers, that this was not a physical occurrence, and that there are clues given in the account which attest to this, such as “He entered the room, not using the door”, which hints at an intimation of a very profound understanding being communicated by the Gospel writers.
. There is no need to reintroduce the arguments. We are well aware of them, but the position we hold is a rational one, dependent upon the instrument of insight to explain the metaphorical content of the stories.
. I will say this, that the previous poster’s emotional display betrays a lack of confidence in the arguments of reason, for when such arguments fail, emotions prevail as the only means of sustaining one’s position. In other words, anger appears on the horizon of doubt in one’s own sense of self-certitude.
. This is what the Word of God does. It separates those who follow blindly from those who seek to understand. Logic and reason are not the enemies of faith, but the partners, and when depended upon rightly, yield deeper understanding and an elevation of perspective.
. Whether one agrees or disagrees with various points of view is secondary to the manners one uses in the discussions of such matters. Descent into derogatory comments are a sure sign of something other than a sure sign of faith and confidence in one’s beliefs, no matter what they are.

 

[PRmerger]

And for the record, I totally agree with calling him “Joe.” The guy contributed absolutely nothing of value to the world of religion. He was a crackpot, and ***history ***shows that rather starkly.

I appreciate your candor. But religious leaders who mount attacks against the truth of the Faith, and therefore put souls in jeopardy, will always receive my scorn and derision. They’ve shown themselves to be unwise in the extreme.

Well, perhaps I am just sensitive to calling people what they want to be called. I am an Asian American, and I don’t like it when people refer to me as “foreign” or as “Chinese”.

Firstly, I am not foreign. I am an American citizen. Secondly, I am not Chinese. There are a multitude of other Asian ethnicities. Chinese is not the only Asian group in the US. (Nor is Japanese, BTW).

So if a person here responded with, “Well, I don’t really care what you like to be called. I’m going to label you as Chinese, because that’s what you look like to me” it would be really, really offensive.

I have always tried to be sensitive to calling people what they wish to be called. To wit: when Protestants object to being called Protestant, and prefer to be labeled as a “non-Catholic”, I happily comply.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7532344&postcount=156

I think it’s the nice and Christian thing to do.

 

[Lochias]

. I will say this, that the previous poster’s emotional display betrays a lack of confidence in the arguments of reason, for when such arguments fail, emotions prevail as the only means of sustaining one’s position. In other words, anger appears on the horizon of doubt in one’s own sense of self-certitude.
This is what the Word of God does. It separates those who follow blindly from those who

Give me a freaking break. All you’re doing is putting your fingers in your ears and going “LA LA LA LA!”.

It’s blatantly clear that you’re not here to learn about the Catholic Church at all, but to try and convert others to your cause. That’s forbidden here, and it’s also tacky. And transparent. You INSIST that we take the Bible in its entirety in a literal fashion when MULTIPLE people have told you otherwise. You’ve already made up your mind about the Church. Thing is, we’ve got facts to back it up; you’re just resorting to willful obtuseness.

It’s droll, and that’s about all I can say for it.