BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[daler]

So what do you say of the Catholic Church which has steadily grown for 2000 years. You have all of 150 years of history, about the same as the Mormons, but I think they are growing much faster than the Baha’i, claiming twice the number of faithful (14,000,000). Shouldn’t the LDS Church “be declining by now, like all the religions of previous false prophets, not growing like it is…”

Steve,
. Such comparisons with one of the sects of Christianity is an apples and oranges comparison and misses the point, I believe. There are many flavors of Christian beliefs, and Mormonism is one of the, based essentially on the Bible with an added twist of their own, but Christian nonetheless.

. I would like to point out to you that there is not competition in the religion of God. That is what Baha’is believe. There are chapters being written in the same book, moved by the same Hand of God wherever it truly is moving. The duty of the readers of all of these chapters is to look with the eye of discernment upon the claims of any who would assert that the Hand of God has once again penned new verses and added to that book.

. When the chapter of Noah was finished, Abraham added another. So did Moses. So did Jesus. The Muslims claim that Muhammad did the same. The Baha’is have made a similar claim, yet are met with the same resistance that the followers of Jesus met when He spoke.

. By now, you are familiar with many of the teachings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, but are unable to reconcile your own understanding of a few different views held by the Baha’is with your own. That is quite alright. All of us (Baha’is) have had to reconcile ourselves to new views from this religion which most of us did not inherit.

 

[daler]

Point made: good behavior may simply mean people are following a falsehood.

It may also mean that they are following the truth, which others have yet to recognize

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well Randy believe it or not I’ve been on this Forum for about ten years and usually only post if someone has questions about the Baha’i Faith… so there is no widespread conspiracy and I’ve asked no one posting here to join in…being in a “tiny group” I know a few of the posters here from another forum but never asked them to join.

Christ did turn the world upside down I agree and so did Prophet Muhammad…

You’d have to consider that our Faith is still fairly recent especially by historical standards…

There are probably Baha’is to day in most countries of the globe in 190 countries that live in oh 127,000 localities… with over eleven thousand Local Spiritual Assemblies and 182 National Spiritual Assemblies…Ive seen various estimates for Baha’i populations. Some countries do not recognize the Faith such as say Saudi Arabia or Iran.

So it is a movement that has virtually circled the globe… What effects all this will have is yet to be told… If you consider that our principles are today widely accepted I think you’d be right… Equality of men and women, world parliament, international court of arbitration and reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty are all principles thatwe espouse… so is the world turning upside down? Maybe so. At least it rotates on it’s axis..

I see your join date…and those of others who have not been here so long but have come to join the discussion in the Baha’i threads.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Steve,
. Such comparisons with one of the sects of Christianity is an apples and oranges comparison and misses the point, I believe. There are many flavors of Christian beliefs, and Mormonism is one of the, based essentially on the Bible with an added twist of their own, but Christian nonetheless.

The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormons as Christians due to invalid baptism.

I would like to point out to you that there is not competition in the religion of God. That is what Baha’is believe. There are chapters being written in the same book, moved by the same Hand of God wherever it truly is moving. The duty of the readers of all of these chapters is to look with the eye of discernment upon the claims of any who would assert that the Hand of God has once again penned new verses and added to that book.

Competition? Well, yes and no. Satan is competing with God to see how many souls he can steal. If he has to invent false religions to divert us from truth, he will.

When the chapter of Noah was finished, Abraham added another. So did Moses. So did Jesus. The Muslims claim that Muhammad did the same. The Baha’is have made a similar claim, yet are met with the same resistance that the followers of Jesus met when He spoke.

Your error is in equating all of these men. However, one of them - and only one - claimed to be God. Then proved it.

Got a resurrection? We do.

By now, you are familiar with many of the teachings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, but are unable to reconcile your own understanding of a few different views held by the Baha’is with your own. That is quite alright. All of us (Baha’is) have had to reconcile ourselves to new views from this religion which most of us did not inherit.

“Any reconciliation of views that requires the acceptance of false interpretations of God’s revelation is not worth making.”

 

[Servant19]

So what do you say of the Catholic Church which has steadily grown for 2000 years. You have all of 150 years of history, about the same as the Mormons, but I think they are growing much faster than the Baha’i, claiming twice the number of faithful (14,000,000). Shouldn’t the LDS Church “be declining by now, like all the religions of previous false prophets, not growing like it is…”

The little I know of the LDS Church indicates to me that there is plenty of Gods work being done by them too

If the will of God is to create stronger families (shared by all religions), to be of service to others (shared by all religions) why don’t we all rally to work TOGETHER with them??

Who cares what Jesus’ or Joseph Smiths’ or Baha’u’llahs station is, we are ALL here to do God’s work, we are His servants. Let us unite to work together to carry out effective, sustainable change. Change to the human heart and change to global consciousness (the collective heart of the human family)

We are not here to undermine the work of the Catholic Church, not at all, we acknowledge fully the role that the Church has played in human history, in developing human capacity for spiritual growth, all we are saying is that there are works that can be carried out that can create sustainable change for the advancement of civilization to levels never before witnessed.

We do not see the human body as evil, we see it as an integral part of civilization building. The human spirit however is the key to effective sustainable change

 

[PRmerger]

It may also mean that they are following the truth, which others have yet to recognize

True, dat.

So it seems feckless to attempt to show that Baha’i “community transformation” means anything.

It could simply mean that they, like the gullible child, is following a mistaken notion of the truth.

There is no utility in judging “community transformation”, unless one knows if the impetus is based on truth or a lie.

 

[PRmerger]

The little I know of the LDS Church indicates to me that there is plenty of Gods work being done by them too

If the will of God is to create stronger families (shared by all religions), to be of service to others (shared by all religions) why don’t we all rally to work TOGETHER with them??

Who cares what Jesus’ or Joseph Smiths’ or Baha’u’llahs station is, we are ALL here to do God’s work, we are His servants.

We care, because we care about Truth.

Take the story of the Emperor parading around butt naked, thinking that he’s dressed in finery when he’s actually acting the fool. He may be happy. He may even be able to do God’s work and hand out a few loaves of bread to his subjects. However, if he’s not steeped in truth (“You are, Your Royal Highness, actually not wearing any clothes!”) his happiness and good works are overshadowed by his astonishing lack of clarity regarding his reality.

 

[Servant19]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

You know, dear Baha’i folks, I must say that when I proposed the exact thing which you have proposed, you all did not react with the same grace and genuine spirit of dialogue that we Catholics have.

You have been proposing here for months that a literal understanding of Christ’s resurrection did not occur.

We Catholics have indulged this discourse with grace and charity.

Now, within just hours of my positing the exact same concept, this dialogue has degenerated into ad hominems and a distinctive lack of grace on your part.

Why do you not accept that it’s possible that you have erroneously applied a literal interpretation to the events of your holy leaders, while in the same breath proclaiming that Christians have erroneously applied a literal interpretation to the event?

PR it is not lack of grace in any way when we stand up against the deniers of undeniable history.

If you, like Ahmadinejad, were to deny the holocaust, then arising against such denial is to work for truth.

If you deny all the historical documents which verify Baha’i history, then arising against such a denial is to work for truth.

Whether the Biblical accounts are historically authentic or not is a question that is being debated by scholars globally. They are, in terms of historicity, not in the same league as Baha’i history or holocaust history.

 

[Servant19]

We care, because we care about Truth.

What is Truth exactly PR?

What evidence is there that Jesus even existed outside of the Gospels? (except for one passing coment in a non-Christian document)

Please don’t see this as a remark to say that I don’t believe Jesus existed, I absolutely do, but authenticity of truth is exponentially increased when there is valid documentation made by more and more independent parties.

Word of mouth, although it CAN be a valid exponent of Truth, does not in any way trump proper documentation, in a language currently being used, by multiple individuals.

I totally agree, even the Baha’i Faith may have lost some authenticity in the 150 years since its inception. Its all so relative.

You care about Truth, but you insist on absolutism on a 2000 year old verbal Tradition using a different language which has been extinct for centuries.

How is that genuine seeking of Truth?

All we can humbly say and do, is to observe what has been repeated from one religion to another, what are the similarities in all religions? What are the points of unity which enhance the human spirit, bring about wellbeing and prosperity for all?
These are independent sources of Truth…

 

[PRmerger]

PR it is not lack of grace in any way when we stand up against the deniers of undeniable history.

Would that you could have done proceeded with the same charity that we Catholics have responded to your denial of 2000 years of undeniable history.

 

[daler]

We care, because we care about Truth.

Take the story of the Emperor parading around butt naked, thinking that he’s dressed in finery when he’s actually acting the fool. He may be happy. He may even be able to do God’s work and hand out a few loaves of bread to his subjects. However, if he’s not steeped in truth (“You are, Your Royal Highness, actually not wearing any clothes!”) his happiness and good works are overshadowed by his astonishing lack of clarity regarding his reality.

Have you not heard the story of the Empress? She, too, thought she was fully dressed, your highness…

Perhaps the words of Jesus would do well to remind us all

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

 

[Servant19]

Fair enough. Let’s reason together.

Earlier I referenced a number of eye-witness accounts found in the New Testament that clearly indicate that Jesus had a physical body after the resurrection.

Luke 24:37-43
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

John 20:26-28
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

If Jesus did not have a physical body (meaning that He was literally raised from the dead), how could He challenge his disciples to touch Him as a means of eliminating their doubt? Why would He ask them to do something that they could not do?

John 20:14-17
14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). 17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

How could Jesus say “Do not hold on to me” if He had no physical body for her to hold?

Hi Randy,

Of course these are all very valid questions.

The equally valid questions are :

1. How is a physical body able to pass through walls, and enter a room without using the door?
2. How was His physical body only recognized after some time, even while walking with some disciples?
3. How is Jesus present in every single room when two or three gather in His name?

You have our Scripture which dictates a physical resurrection.
We have our Scripture which dictates a spiritual resurrection.

There are obviously questions from both angles.
What the absolute TRUTH is, is beyond me and you to fully understand.

So where do we go from here?
There is a LOT of unknowns. We can reason and speculate till the cows come home.

Is this what God wants from us?
Does God’s will REVOLVE around this mystery? Is it the be all and end all of EVERYTHING? Can we not find areas which we can unite to serve Gods creation shoulder to shoulder, walking toegther on a path of service?

Which would God want? To focus on a mystery and argue all day, OR to find points of commonality and use it to do His Works for the prosperity of all?

 

[PRmerger]

Have you not heard the story of the Empress? She, too, thought she was fully dressed, your highness…

Perhaps the words of Jesus would do well to remind us all

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Sorry. I have no idea to what you are referring.

 

[Servant19]

Would that you could have done proceeded with the same charity that we Catholics have responded to your denial of 2000 years of undeniable history.

Any reasonable person can clearly see, even if the Bible was UNDENIABLY historic and authentic in its historicity, that there are contradictions to the physical resurrection.

How can a physical body enter a room without using a door?
How can a physical body appear and disappear at will?

I refer you to my response to Randy above

 

[PRmerger]

You care about Truth, but you insist on absolutism on a 2000 year old verbal Tradition using a different language which has been extinct for centuries.

What a rather bizarre criterion to use to determine the truth of a particular theology.

You are positing that for something to be valid it has to be in your language?

[SIGN1]Even your own Baha’i faith doesn’t follow that criterion![/SIGN1]

Also, you do realize, don’t you, that you have now eliminated the possibility that thousands of years from now there may be a culture which wants to embrace the Baha’i faith, but since they will be speaking a different language, and whatever language your holy leaders spoke may by then be extinct, you will have shot your faith in the foot.

The naysayers in this future culture will simply say, “That Baha’i faith was founded using a different language which has been extinct for centuries!”

Again, what a bizarre criterion you are proclaiming here.

 

[Servant19]

This is a nonsequitur, Servant.

You made the argument that good behavior (“community transformation”) must mean that the Baha’i faith is true.

Point made: good behavior may simply mean people are following a falsehood.

PR, community transformation does not equal good behaviour.

I ask you again therefore, what IS Truth?

Maybe truth is that we should all follow Krishna who (through authentic verbal Tradition) lifted up a mountain for several days, claimed to be God Himself and said that there is no path to God except through Him, several millenia BEFORE Jesus said the same things.

What is Truth?

 

[PRmerger]

Any reasonable person can clearly see, even if the Bible was UNDENIABLY historic and authentic in its historicity, that there are contradictions to the physical resurrection

Annddd here we go again: I must remind you that you are on a Catholic Forum in dialogue with Catholics. Sheesh.

You are not on a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian forum.

We do not use the Bible to extract our doctrines.

It matters very little whether the Bible is undeniably historic.

We have the historicity of 2000 years of our faith, given once for all, to the saints.

You can see the history of each of our popes being ordained by another pope, who was ordained by a previous pope <snip 2000 years> who was ordained by Peter…who was ordained by Christ.

 

[Servant19]

What a rather bizarre criterion to use to determine the truth of a particular theology.

You are positing that for something to be valid it has to be in your language?

[SIGN1]Even your own Baha’i faith doesn’t follow that criterion![/SIGN1]

Also, you do realize, don’t you, that you have now eliminated the possibility that thousands of years from now there may be a culture which wants to embrace the Baha’i faith, but since they will be speaking a different language, and whatever language your holy leaders spoke may by then be extinct, you will have shot your faith in the foot.

The naysayers in this future culture will simply say, “That Baha’i faith was founded using a different language which has been extinct for centuries!”

Again, what a bizarre criterion you are proclaiming here.

No PR, I am positing that the language has been extinct for centuries. I don’t understand the nuances of language my 10 year old son uses today, and we “supposedly” speak the same language. Now what were some of the nuances of the Aramaic language?

Also the Baha’i Faith clearly states that another Manifestation of God will be raised up to guide mankind again in the future, and this process will continue as long as there is a God.

Language evolution is part of the reason why God does provide renewed guidance for mankind…no shooting in the foot at all

 

[Servant19]

Annddd here we go again: I must remind you that you are on a Catholic Forum in dialogue with Catholics. Sheesh.

You are not on a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian forum.

We do not use the Bible to extract our doctrines.

It matters very little whether the Bible is undeniably historic.

We have the historicity of 2000 years of our faith, given once for all, to the saints.

You can see the history of each of our popes being ordained by another pope, who was ordained by a previous pope <snip 2000 years> who was ordained by Peter…who was ordained by Christ.

So did Peter explain how Jesus’ physical body was able to appear and disappear at will, and walk through walls?

Has any Pope given an explanation?

 

[PRmerger]

What is Truth?

Truth is that which corresponds with reality. As Aquinas said, paraphrasing: it is that which IS.