BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

It is bizarre, but it’s not Bahai. In fact I don’t think you’ll find any “objection against Christianity” in the Bahai teachings. If you hear one here, it’s just somebody’s personal bug, or you may have misunderstood. In either case, let it pass.

Great.

Except, from what I understand, there is no person who speaks for the Baha’i faith today, so how are we to know what is someone’s “personal bug” and what is true Baha’i theology?

With Catholicism, one can distinguish between what Catholics say, and what Catholicism proclaims, quite easily: we look to the Magisterium as the representation of the Catholic faith.

The Baha’i faith has no such parallel.

 

[PRmerger]

My point is not trying to be disrespectful,** I’m just saying things are not so black and white**

And yet here you are making a black and white statement.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, I’m happy to hear which part of my post is bizarre.

It is your argument that is bizarre, Servant.

As Steve so eloquently and succinctly summed up: It is the exact argument that you use against Christian beliefs and when that same argument is turned on Baha’i history and belief you find it bizarre.

So it’s bizarre that what you object to in Christianity (it was founded in an archaic language) could be applied to the Baha’i religion just as easily in a century or two.

 

[PRmerger]

Acknowledged Aramaic is not extinct today, but the evolution of languages dictates that what was spoken 2000 years ago is unlikely to be very well understood today, but again I’m happy to be proven incorrect

This is not correct, as anyone who learned Latin at school can attest. The Latin of Julius Caesar is perfectly readable today. The poets can be translated without any difficulty. On the other hand, part of Baha’u’llah’s writings, and much of the Bab’s writings, is difficult. It depends on the type of text, not the age of the language

 

[tonyfish58]

Great.

Except, from what I understand, there is no person who speaks for the Baha’i faith today, so how are we to know what is someone’s “personal bug” and what is true Baha’i theology?

With Catholicism, one can distinguish between what Catholics say, and what Catholicism proclaims, quite easily: we look to the Magisterium as the representation of the Catholic faith.

The Baha’i faith has no such parallel.

Now there is a good question! and an interesting observation

Anything but quotations from the Pure word is someones thoughts, quotations from the Baha’i Scriptures are available here - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/

How someone views these writings is up to them and if they make comments based on them it is there point of view.

And yes as Baha’is we will get it wrong at times. We are all just learning how great the Faith of God is. If we stumble please let us know

I think Sen put a good perspective on some of the latest discussion

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

Great.

Except, from what I understand, there is no person who speaks for the Baha’i faith today, so how are we to know what is someone’s “personal bug” and what is true Baha’i theology?

With Catholicism, one can distinguish between what Catholics say, and what Catholicism proclaims, quite easily: we look to the Magisterium as the representation of the Catholic faith.

The Baha’i faith has no such parallel.

We go to the sacred texts of the Bab, Baha’u’llah, and Abdul Baha, as well as Shoghi Effendi. We have guidance under the Universal House of Justice.

 

[arthra]

Great.

Except, from what I understand, there is no person who speaks for the Baha’i faith today, so how are we to know what is someone’s “personal bug” and what is true Baha’i theology?

With Catholicism, one can distinguish between what Catholics say, and what Catholicism proclaims, quite easily: we look to the Magisterium as the representation of the Catholic faith.

The Baha’i faith has no such parallel.

There may not be any “parallel” because we have no priesthood or ecclesiastical hierarchy in the sense of the Catholic church…however we have an order nonetheless.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are the scripture (the Writings) and authoritative interpretations…

The Universal House of Justice does “speak” for the Baha’i Faith… It is the Center of the Faith today and it defers to the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and Abdul-Baha along with the interpretations of Shoghi Effendi…

**The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá’u’lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of the Centre of the Covenant and the Guardian of the Cause - who, after `Abdu’l-Bahá, is the sole authority in the interpretation of Bahá’í Scripture - constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation. The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong all authority and power.

bahai-library.com/uhj_constitution

**The Universal House of Justice has conferred infallibility and anything not specifically mentioned in the Writings concerning the Baha’i community are within it’s purview.

Authority in our institutions today is centered in the House of Justice… The House is elected internationally every five years … It has powers to appoint counselors that have authority over certain areas such as protection and propagation of the Faith carried out by appointed Auxiliary Board Members.

The elective institutions start at the local level as Spiritual Assemblies in each jurisdiction…Unit Conventions then elect delegates that meet in a National Convention and elect a National Spiritual Assembly …Delegates from the National Assemblies meet every five years to elected the House of Justice that administers the Faith from Mount Carmel.

 

[Servant19]

https://imgur.com/jFi4HM3

First of all, if this is the condescending look you are giving me while we have this dialogue PR, then I would question your motives

I am trying to learn…you don’t look like you are trying to learn at all in this photo

 

[Servant19]

It is your argument that is bizarre, Servant.

As Steve so eloquently and succinctly summed up: It is the exact argument that you use against Christian beliefs and when that same argument is turned on Baha’i history and belief you find it bizarre.

So it’s bizarre that what you object to in Christianity (it was founded in an archaic language) could be applied to the Baha’i religion just as easily in a century or two.

Secondly, I struggle to believe that language, especially oral traditions passed down from generation to generation (which is what we are talking about here after all), don’t change at all over the course of 2000 years.

Sen talked about written Latin. That may well be little changed, and I agree maybe the CONTEXT of the environment surrounding the language expressions is more important, but to emphasize and insist that Aramaic has not changed over the course of 2000 years goes against established science.

nsf.gov/news/special_reports/linguistics/change.jsp

again, I’m happy to be proved wrong, but the language nuance changes over a 2000 year period, in contrast to a 150 year period is vast.

 

[Servant19]

This is not correct, as anyone who learned Latin at school can attest. The Latin of Julius Caesar is perfectly readable today. The poets can be translated without any difficulty. On the other hand, part of Baha’u’llah’s writings, and much of the Bab’s writings, is difficult. It depends on the type of text, not the age of the language

Sen, as a Bahai scholar, I would be interested to hear your perspective, therefore, on the historical accuracy of the Resurrection as a literal event, and also how you view it from a Bahai perspective

 

[tonyfish58]

Resurrection how to view it from a Bahai perspective

Servant - We view it as per our Scripture

A couple of links

bahairesearch.com/english/Baha%27i/Baha%27i_Studies/Compilations/Extracts%20Concerning%20the%20Resurrection.aspx

A blog with quotes

bahaiscripturesjesus.blogspot.com.au/

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

With Catholicism, one can distinguish between what Catholics say, and what Catholicism proclaims, quite easily: we look to the Magisterium as the representation of the Catholic faith.

The Baha’i faith has no such parallel.

That is correct. The equivalent of the Magisterium would be the roles of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as authorized interpreters of the Bahai teachings and scripture. Their expository writings are the magisterium, But the office of Guardian died with Shoghi Effendi, so there is nobody who can answer a question you may have authoritatively. On the other hand,

1. the volume of scripture and interpretation Bahais have is enormous, so that with someone to help you find things, an authoritative answer from the past can usually be found, and
2. new questions that come up, such as same-sex marriage, are in the hands of the House of Justice, which has scriptural authorities to make rulings for the day. These tell us “what is to be done,” not what the Bahai teachings are. They are applications of principle for a time and setting, and they can be changed by a later House of Justice, or varied for local conditions. So in that sense there is an ongoing and flexible magisterium, but it practical, not doctrinal. .

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

again, I’m happy to be proved wrong, but the language nuance changes over a 2000 year period, in contrast to a 150 year period is vast.

Latin also changed enormously. Medieval Latin and church Latin are not the Latin of Julius Caesar’s campaign diaries, which again differ somewhat from the earlier Plautus and Terence. This is absolutely no problem: if one wants to read Medieval Latin, one studies Medieval Latin; if one wants to read the Latin of the golden age, study the Latin of that period. In the same way, to translate Abdu’l-Baha, writing about the turn of the 19th-20th centuries, I use a dictionary from that time and the translations of a genius translator who knew him - Shoghi Effendi. I do not use a contemporary dictionary or the practice of today’s Persian speakers; I do discuss things with those who also know Qajar era literature. Similarly, to read Shakespeare, don’t ask a native-speaking Englishman, ask an Elizabethan or Shakespearean scholar.

The New Testament is written in Koine Greek, not in Aramaic. Greek is not an endangered language, but knowing modern Greek will not get you far with reading Koine Greek.

 

[PRmerger]

There may not be any “parallel” because we have no priesthood or ecclesiastical hierarchy in the sense of the Catholic church…however we have an order nonetheless.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are the scripture (the Writings) and authoritative interpretations…

The Universal House of Justice does “speak” for the Baha’i Faith… It is the Center of the Faith today and it defers to the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and Abdul-Baha along with the interpretations of Shoghi Effendi…

**The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá’u’lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of the Centre of the Covenant and the Guardian of the Cause - who, after `Abdu’l-Bahá, is the sole authority in the interpretation of Bahá’í Scripture - constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation. The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong all authority and power.

bahai-library.com/uhj_constitution**

The Universal House of Justice has conferred infallibility and anything not specifically mentioned in the Writings concerning the Baha’i community are within it’s purview.

Authority in our institutions today is centered in the House of Justice… The House is elected internationally every five years … It has powers to appoint counselors that have authority over certain areas such as protection and propagation of the Faith carried out by appointed Auxiliary Board Members.

The elective institutions start at the local level as Spiritual Assemblies in each jurisdiction…Unit Conventions then elect delegates that meet in a National Convention and elect a National Spiritual Assembly …Delegates from the National Assemblies meet every five years to elected the House of Justice that administers the Faith from Mount Carmel.

The above seems quite different from what is said below:

Now there is a good question! and an interesting observation

Anything but quotations from the Pure word is someones thoughts, quotations from the Baha’i Scriptures are available here - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/

Which one is personal opinion, and which one is the official Baha’i understanding?

And would I need a quotation from the Pure word in order to have a definitive answer, or something from the Univesal House of Justice?

 

[PRmerger]

First of all, if this is the condescending look you are giving me while we have this dialogue PR, then I would question your motives

I am trying to learn…you don’t look like you are trying to learn at all in this photo

Condescending? I am* never *condescending. :nope:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...oWuQS5PlfcgrbiQ4FrsV4EZfBzlSt5xVKti1B3L0vp8ag

 

[PRmerger]

Secondly, I struggle to believe that language, especially oral traditions passed down from generation to generation (which is what we are talking about here after all), don’t change at all over the course of 2000 years.

Can you give an example of Catholic Tradition which has changed over the course of 2000 years?

 

[PRmerger]

That is correct. The equivalent of the Magisterium would be the roles of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as authorized interpreters of the Bahai teachings and scripture. Their expository writings are the magisterium, But the office of Guardian died with Shoghi Effendi, so there is nobody who can answer a question you may have authoritatively. On the other hand,

1. the volume of scripture and interpretation Bahais have is enormous, so that with someone to help you find things, an authoritative answer from the past can usually be found, and
2. new questions that come up, such as same-sex marriage, are in the hands of the House of Justice, which has scriptural authorities to make rulings for the day. These tell us “what is to be done,” not what the Bahai teachings are. They are applications of principle for a time and setting, and they can be changed by a later House of Justice, or varied for local conditions. So in that sense there is an ongoing and flexible magisterium, but it practical, not doctrinal. .

Interesting.

And yet here is another perspective on who speaks for the Baha’i faith, as far as its teachings go.

It seems that there is no consensus here among the Baha’i?

So who do I appeal to, in order to have my question answered? Only the Pure word? The Universal House of Justice? Or “nobody can answer it authoritatively”?

 

[PRmerger]

Latin also changed enormously. Medieval Latin and church Latin are not the Latin of Julius Caesar’s campaign diaries, which again differ somewhat from the earlier Plautus and Terence. This is absolutely no problem: if one wants to read Medieval Latin, one studies Medieval Latin; if one wants to read the Latin of the golden age, study the Latin of that period. In the same way, to translate Abdu’l-Baha, writing about the turn of the 19th-20th centuries, I use a dictionary from that time and the translations of a genius translator who knew him - Shoghi Effendi. I do not use a contemporary dictionary or the practice of today’s Persian speakers; I do discuss things with those who also know Qajar era literature. Similarly, to read Shakespeare, don’t ask a native-speaking Englishman, ask an Elizabethan or Shakespearean scholar.

The New Testament is written in Koine Greek, not in Aramaic. Greek is not an endangered language, but knowing modern Greek will not get you far with reading Koine Greek.

 

[arthra]

The above seems quite different from what is said below:

Which one is personal opinion, and which one is the official Baha’i understanding?

And would I need a quotation from the Pure word in order to have a definitive answer, or something from the Univesal House of Justice?

Baha’is are always allowed to give their personal opinion on an issue… Personal opinions are allowed for a process we call consultation… a process that’s enjoined for Baha’is:

**"Let us … . remember that at the very root of the Cause lies the principle of the undoubted right of the individual to self-expression, his freedom to declare his conscience and set forth his views…

“Let us also bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority, but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation. Nothing short of the spirit of a true Bahá’í can hope to reconcile the principles of mercy and justice, of freedom and submission, of the sanctity of the right of the individual and of self-surrender, of vigilance, discretion and prudence on the one hand and fellowship, candour and courage on the other…”**

(From a letter dated 23 February 1924 written by Shoghi Effendi to the Bahá’ís of America, published in “Bahá’í Administration: Selected Messages 1922-1932” pp. 63-64)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 107)

As an individual Baha’i you can give your opinion on any matter… and another Baha’i can do the same… It’s when you are representing an institution on a matter that there could be some authority involved.

 

[Deva1234]

Baha’is are always allowed to give their personal opinion on an issue… Personal opinions are allowed for a process we call consultation… a process that’s enjoined for Baha’is:

**"Let us … . remember that at the very root of the Cause lies the principle of the undoubted right of the individual to self-expression, his freedom to declare his conscience and set forth his views…

“Let us also bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority, but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation. Nothing short of the spirit of a true Bahá’í can hope to reconcile the principles of mercy and justice, of freedom and submission, of the sanctity of the right of the individual and of self-surrender, of vigilance, discretion and prudence on the one hand and fellowship, candour and courage on the other…”**

(From a letter dated 23 February 1924 written by Shoghi Effendi to the Bahá’ís of America, published in “Bahá’í Administration: Selected Messages 1922-1932” pp. 63-64)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 107)

As an individual Baha’i you can give your opinion on any matter… and another Baha’i can do the same… It’s when you are representing an institution on a matter that there could be some authority involved.

Yawwwwnnnnnn.

Yet again something that is not unique to Bahais.

You certainly seem to have very high opinions of yourselves.

If only the size of your egos was matched by the size of your knowledge of Christianity.

I’ve been following this thread for a while and I have to say that apart from sen mcglinn the Bahais are not coming across very well.