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arthra
Guest
Deva,
I would admit this thread has not an optimal place to learn from each other but it is all that is allowed here. My only purpose here is to respond to questions posed.
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I would admit this thread has not an optimal place to learn from each other but it is all that is allowed here. My only purpose here is to respond to questions posed.
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Servant19
Guest
Personally I would go back to sleep Deva
In terms of high opinions of ourselves, I would suggest you go back and look at how many times the Baha’is have said we don’t know something, or thankyou that was interesting learning, or I honor your fortitude and faith, when speaking with the Catholic thinkers here.
The only high opinion I have seen is of me telling Eddie that I have read every book in history 5 times!!!
People often ask what’s so unique, so new about the Faith and we are just answering the question, not boasting about ourselves.
On another note, I really struggle with the us versus you mentality, we this, we that, you this, you that.
I’d like to reiterate that we are one human race. I offer my opinion sometimes, but I generally would like to work on getting better at offering Baha’u’llahs Words more. It keeps the ME out of it, and I can remain with you all as my brothers and sisters as we explore these things together
Deva, what have you learnt from reading the whole thread? Anything you wish to contribute?
Or is sleep a better option? LOL
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Deva1234
Guest
Ain’t you a treat.Personally I would go back to sleep Deva
In terms of high opinions of ourselves, I would suggest you go back and look at how many times the Baha’is have said we don’t know something, or thankyou that was interesting learning, or I honor your fortitude and faith, when speaking with the Catholic thinkers here.
The only high opinion I have seen is of me telling Eddie that I have read every book in history 5 times!!!
People often ask what’s so unique, so new about the Faith and we are just answering the question, not boasting about ourselves.
On another note, I really struggle with the us versus you mentality, we this, we that, you this, you that.
I’d like to reiterate that we are one human race. I offer my opinion sometimes, but I generally would like to work on getting better and offering Baha’u’llahs Words more. It keeps the ME out of it, and I can remain with you all as my brothers and sisters as we explore these things together
Deva, what have you learnt from reading the whole thread? Anything you wish to contribute?
Or is sleep a better option? LOL
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daler
Guest
Not everything about the Baha’i Faith is unique to the Baha’i Faith. The roots of the religions spring from One Source. However, ancient oral accounts are not always very reliable as to absolute accuracy and are very much colored by both the interpretations and imaginations projected onto whatever was authentic when passed down. Institutions developed according to the understanding of people at the time and dogma was established from this as well as who won out at times, not what was necessarily correct.
As Baha’is, we have absolute confidence in the Founders of our Faith and still believe in the Manifestations of God from previous dispensations while recognizing projection of ideas onto events written down many decades, or in some cases many centuries later, has affected the religions of the past in their current state.
It is also apparent that people from whatever perspective often fail to appreciate that had they been born into another religious setting in another land and culture they would be very much influenced, naturally, by the prevailing beliefs surrounding them. Had you or I been born into a Mormon family or generations of Hindus, our worldview and ability to view with objectivity the “beliefs” we ourselves hold would be molded by these realities. Similarly, had these same individuals been born into Catholic families, their thinking would be along the lines current and applicable in those situations.
How do we then, independently of others and their influence, arrive at “our own” beliefs, rather than simply parrot and echo the beliefs of others? How do we validly express ourselves to others, or hear what others have to say, without resorting to emotional appeals which are the outcome of attachment to personalities and opinions expressed by authority figures who appear to dominate all of the various religious movements in the world? Only through independent investigation of truth.
O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
Baha’u’llah
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Servant19
Guest
Why thank ya!
Not sure how to take it, but I’ll take it and run with it!
Is there anything about Bahai that causes you grave concern Deva?
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Deva1234
Guest
Not really Servant.Why thank ya!
Not sure how to take it, but I’ll take it and run with it!
Is there anything about Bahai that causes you grave concern Deva?
You’ve done a good job at showing it up as a rather arrogant and pretentious religion.
Rather than going to sleep you should try waking up.
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Deva1234
Guest
Correction, they were cherry picked from many sources.
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SteveVH
Guest
But what you fail to either acknowledge or realize is that we were there 2000 years ago and spoke the same language. We understood the modes of expression and the idioms of that time and culture and the Church has been guarding this deposit of faith and this understanding against error throughout its entire history. You need to keep this in mind when you purport to tell us the true meaning of Christ’s life, words and deeds.
I would agree completely that one picking up the Bible who has no relation to its history and is lacking the understanding held by the Church through Sacred Tradition, will have a very difficult time interpreting its meaning by using modern modes of expression and understanding. This would include your own faith tradition which is barely a blip on the screen of religious history.
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SteveVH
Guest
Do you have one, just one, independent account of the ascension of Baha’u’llah? Why in the word, then, would you believe such a thing?I do value the strength and fortitude you display Steve, I really do
For me personally, I have some reservations about the historical accuracy of the Boblival accounts.
For example, when in Matthew it is written
…I would suggest that such a supernatural event as having many holy bodies arising out from their graves and walking amongst the people would at least have one, just one independent record of such an event. There is nothing outside the gospels.
On the one hand, I hear the Baha’i say that they believe the Bible to be true Scripture. And then they proceed to deny the very historical events and messages it contains. You can’t have it both ways. Either believe it or deny it, but you can’t just choose what you want and throw the rest away.…I again would at least expect one external record of this slaughter of all children under 2 years old. This is not even recorded by Josephus.
My point is not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just saying things are not so black and white
Why would such a story just be made up? Secular historians may not have recorded this specific event, I doubt many were hanging around Bethlehem at the time, but history has certainly recorded evidence that shows that this was not at all out of character for King Herod, who was a true historical figure. Take a look at the secular rulers mentioned in the biblical texts. They line up perfectly with the secular of historians, each and every time.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, of course. I don’t think anyone here believes that any religion, save that of a cult, disagrees with anyone having a "personal opinion’.
The question for you is: how do we as non-Bahais know when you all are expressing a personal opinion, or that which is representative of the Bahai faith?
With Catholicism, we all know what it is that the CC teaches–and if you don’t know you can look at the Catechism, which is the “sure norm” for the faith.
So, if a Bahai here says, “Divorce and re-marriage is absolutely an option for Bahais”, how are we to know if this is mere personal opinion or not?
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SteveVH
Guest
:tiphat:I do value the strength and fortitude you display Steve, I really do
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arthra
Guest
Merger asked:
*The question for you is: how do we as non-Bahais know when you all are expressing a personal opinion, or that which is representative of the Bahai faith?
*
Usually if a Baha’i expresses their own view they will say so… “This is my personal view”;
otherwise we’ll quote the Writings, the interpretation of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the House fo Justice directly.
Whenever there’s a discussion among us and say a difference of opinion we’ll refer to the Writings… People also can directly ask the Universal House of Justice for clarification…this practice has been part of our Faith from the beginning… addressing questions to Baha’u’llah and after Him Abdul-Baha and the Guardian…today it’s the Universal House of Justice.
*The question for you is: how do we as non-Bahais know when you all are expressing a personal opinion, or that which is representative of the Bahai faith?
*
Usually if a Baha’i expresses their own view they will say so… “This is my personal view”;
otherwise we’ll quote the Writings, the interpretation of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the House fo Justice directly.
Whenever there’s a discussion among us and say a difference of opinion we’ll refer to the Writings… People also can directly ask the Universal House of Justice for clarification…this practice has been part of our Faith from the beginning… addressing questions to Baha’u’llah and after Him Abdul-Baha and the Guardian…today it’s the Universal House of Justice.
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PRmerger
Guest
So when Servant argued that use of an archaic language ought to give one pause, he did not mention this as being his own personal opinion.Merger asked:
*The question for you is: how do we as non-Bahais know when you all are expressing a personal opinion, or that which is representative of the Bahai faith?
*
Usually if a Baha’i expresses their own view they will say so… “This is my personal view”;
otherwise we’ll quote the Writings, the interpretation of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the House fo Justice directly.
Whenever there’s a discussion among us and say a difference of opinion we’ll refer to the Writings… People also can directly ask the Universal House of Justice for clarification…this practice has been part of our Faith from the beginning… addressing questions to Baha’u’llah and after Him Abdul-Baha and the Guardian…today it’s the Universal House of Justice.
Sen was required to voice the position that this was NOT representative of Bahai faith.
It appears that this is actually NOT the case that what Bahais posit, when it is their own personal opinion, they will actually confirm this.
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PRmerger
Guest
Now, tony gave this comment. He did not say that it is his own personal opinion, so am I to assume that it is true Bahai teaching?Merger asked:
*The question for you is: how do we as non-Bahais know when you all are expressing a personal opinion, or that which is representative of the Bahai faith?
*
Usually if a Baha’i expresses their own view they will say so… “This is my personal view”;
otherwise we’ll quote the Writings, the interpretation of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the House fo Justice directly.
Whenever there’s a discussion among us and say a difference of opinion we’ll refer to the Writings… People also can directly ask the Universal House of Justice for clarification…this practice has been part of our Faith from the beginning… addressing questions to Baha’u’llah and after Him Abdul-Baha and the Guardian…today it’s the Universal House of Justice.
It does appear that this is in contrast to what you have been saying, which is that the thoughts of the Shoghi while not the Pure word are indeed authoritative?
Or is that your opinion only?
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arthra
Guest
Merger asked:
*if a Bahai here says, “Divorce and re-marriage is absolutely an option for Bahais”, how are we to know if this is mere personal opinion or not? *
The terms of marriage and divorce are part of Baha’i law revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas revealed around 1870’s when He lived in Akka…then part of the Ottoman Empire.
Also since Baha’i marriage and divorce are handled through the Local Spiritual Assembly certain procedures have to be followed.
Here’s an example of the guidance:
*"… no sanctions should be imposed merely because the believer has commenced a civil action for divorce before the expiration of the year of patience. However, the believer will be subject to sanctions if he should marry a third party within the year of patience itself, but also because even though a civil divorce has been granted, the Bahá’í divorce cannot be granted until the end of the year of patience. For this reason no marriage is possible during the running of the year of patience unless the parties to the divorce re-marry each other again in a civil ceremony."
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Alaska, March 29, 1966)*
If there’s an issue which seems problematic the Local Spiritual Assembly can defer to the National Spiritual Assembly…ultimately the Universal House of Justice is the last word on procedures.
The couple can consult with an Assembly that they wish to divorce and a year of patience is then set up.
Re-marriage after a year of patience is permitted but again must meet the same requirements for Baha’i marriage…
*if a Bahai here says, “Divorce and re-marriage is absolutely an option for Bahais”, how are we to know if this is mere personal opinion or not? *
The terms of marriage and divorce are part of Baha’i law revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas revealed around 1870’s when He lived in Akka…then part of the Ottoman Empire.
Also since Baha’i marriage and divorce are handled through the Local Spiritual Assembly certain procedures have to be followed.
Here’s an example of the guidance:
*"… no sanctions should be imposed merely because the believer has commenced a civil action for divorce before the expiration of the year of patience. However, the believer will be subject to sanctions if he should marry a third party within the year of patience itself, but also because even though a civil divorce has been granted, the Bahá’í divorce cannot be granted until the end of the year of patience. For this reason no marriage is possible during the running of the year of patience unless the parties to the divorce re-marry each other again in a civil ceremony."
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Alaska, March 29, 1966)*
Code:
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 52)The couple can consult with an Assembly that they wish to divorce and a year of patience is then set up.
Re-marriage after a year of patience is permitted but again must meet the same requirements for Baha’i marriage…
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PRmerger
Guest
What was the understanding before 1870?
And are the writings of the House of Justice just their opinions, since it is not the Pure word? (This is Tony’s premise.)
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arthra
Guest
My opinion:
Archaic languages (Aramaic) in and of themselves are not of concern to us… that is it isn’t so much an issue for Baha’is. It’s a matter where you would defer to academic opinion. We are free to speculate.
There is however an interest in the process of translating languages of the Writings…so we are sometimes focused on how Farsi and Arabic are translated into English and this is where the Guardian Shoghi Effendi made a major contribution…an he was the designated interpreter and he translated many of the writings into English.
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arthra
Guest
My opinion:
Actually the laws of the previous dispensation of the Bab regarding marriage were enforce…that and civil and Muslim law.
Some of the laws of the Bab and Islamic laws were abrogated by the Aqdas.
After the Kitab-i-Aqdas was revealed only portions were enforced and this is a process that will continue …
The Aqdas itself gives the House of Justice the authority to implement laws:
Today the Universal House of Justice has authority to state how these laws will be implemented and when they will be enforced.
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PRmerger
Guest
So there you go. The point about archaic languages being a concern for Servant was not verbalized as an opinion.
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PRmerger
Guest
So prior to 1870 Bahais were permitted to marry multiple women (as is permitted by Muslim law)?
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