BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

You see how history cannot form the foundation of ones faith PR?

All these various accounts and all slightly different with slightly different perspectives and understandings, and all eyewitness accounts written and documented almost immediately, and this was only 170 years ago

Which shows the difference between a truly divine institution, led by the Holy Spirit, and those started by mere men.

Still convinced about historical accuracy of the Gospels?

Yes. It has been divinely revealed as the inerrant word of God and truth cannot conflict with truth. True history is the friend of Catholicism.

Now, the reason why the 750 is stated as fact is simply because it is the official historical document of the Baha’is, named Nabils Narrative which is being cited.

You mean no independent verification? Why is that okay for Baha’i’s and not for Christians?

 

[PRmerger]

Which shows the difference between a truly divine institution, led by the Holy Spirit, and those started by mere men.

Right.

And history is not the foundation of our Church. Christ is, and He left us a means of understanding His revelation that would be without error.

So we need not rely on history. Rather, we rely on the Word. Tradition.

 

[SteveVH]

Right.

And history is not the foundation of our Church. Christ is, and He left us a means of understanding His revelation that would be without error.

So we need not rely on history. Rather, we rely on the Word. Tradition.

Precisely.

 

[Servant19]

Ok, does anyone else have any other questions about the Bahai Faith?

I remember flame opened a Bahai mysticism thread, since that was what he was interested in. If flame is reading, I will try to revisit that one and contribute since it was started during a very busy period.

But if there’s other questions please go ahead

 

[Servant19]

It would be if you applied the common meaning of “ascension”. This reminds me very much of the Mormon faith. They take commonly understood definitions and meanings of words and, unilaterally, give them a different meaning to fit with their preconceived system of beliefs.

Using the Baha’i meaning, I could easily state that my younger brother who died four years ago “ascended” into heaven. Most of the world (excluding the Baha’i) would wonder if I had ever been taught the meaning of the word.

Baha’u’llah did not “ascend” to heaven. He died and was buried and his remains are still there. I don’t know what happened to his soul, but he will face the same judgment that all people will face at the end. Jesus, however, will not be judged but rather will judge all of humanity, including Baha’u’llah.

The Bahai Faith has provided a “fulfillment”, if you were, of the meaning of several words.

Off the top of my head, the words heaven, ascension and especially “unity” have found their true meaning in Baha’u’llahs revelation

 

[Servant19]

Ok, does anyone else have any other questions about the Bahai Faith?

I remember Flameburns opened a Bahai mysticism thread, since that was what he was interested in. If flame is reading, I will try to revisit that one and contribute since it was started during a very busy period.

But if there’s other questions please go ahead

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’ll ask my question again along with one other

When will God put world and all the evils contained therein to rights?

Also, bahai have justified their prophet’s marraige history by saying the revelation hadn’t come yet. Is not Mirza Hussain an eternal entity? Why did anything need to be revealed to him?

 

[SteveVH]

The Bahai Faith has provided a “fulfillment”, if you were, of the meaning of several words.

Off the top of my head, the words heaven, ascension and especially “unity” have found their true meaning in Baha’u’llahs revelation

And from the Christian perspective we would say that the Baha’i have created their own definitions which deny the truth. Our basis for this conclusion is the deposit of faith given to us directly from Christ through the Apostles which contradicts Baha’u’llah’s “revelation”.

What is your reason for believing it?

 

[PRmerger]

Ok, does anyone else have any other questions about the Bahai Faith?

I’d like to know if you knew, prior to Sen’s commentary, that the 750 musket story was an exaggeration.

I understand that you say this is of no matter to you.

But I would like to know if you knew this piece of information prior?

 

[PRmerger]

Ok, does anyone else have any other questions about the Bahai Faith?

I remember Flameburns opened a Bahai mysticism thread, since that was what he was interested in. If flame is reading, I will try to revisit that one and contribute since it was started during a very busy period.

But if there’s other questions please go ahead

Also, I would like to know if the Universal House of Justice claims that it has the authority to interpret the Scriptures?

 

[Servant19]

I’d like to know if you knew, prior to Sen’s commentary, that the 750 musket story was an exaggeration.

I understand that you say this is of no matter to you.

But I would like to know if you knew this piece of information prior?

I knew that there was no “official” number. Really, seriously PR, who counts the number of soldiers in a regiment, all stood ready to kill a holy man? Maybe someone did. But the very fact that that number was ratified by a Manifestation of God Himself, and again ratified during translation by the Centre of His Covenant, Shoghi Effendi implies it as factual.

HOWEVER, and this is a BIG MASSIVE however…

I am firmly convinced that ALL historical accounts that have been ratified by the Centre of the Covenant (as is the case in the Bahai Faith) or by the Holy Spirit (as is the case in the Christian Faith) is not intended to communicate FACTS, but rather it is intended to communicate TRUTHS.

That is the big difference. Christian consider it a historical fact, Baha’is consider it a Truth

It is for this reason that for me, and for many multitudes of Baha’is, the true number in that regiment is irrelevant.

Lastly, I have not read anywhere that the 750 number is an “exaggeration”, just that one regiment was small and the next one was large, thats all

Hope that helps

 

[PRmerger]

I knew that there was no “official” number.

So it is indeed correct to say: it is a myth that there were 750 men who shot at the Bab and he still survived.

 

[Servant19]

So it is indeed correct to say: it is a myth that there were 750 men who shot at the Bab and he still survived.

Seriously???
A myth is your conclusion?

Be the light of the spirit of God, PR, look up for inspiration, not down in desperation…

 

[arthra]

Also, I would like to know if the Universal House of Justice claims that it has the authority to interpret the Scriptures?

The role of interpretation of the Writings was with Abdul-Baha and later Shoghi Effendi … those interpretations stand today and are viable. The following further clarifies this I believe:

1. Upon the Universal House of Justice, in the words of the Guardian, “has been conferred the exclusive right of legislating on matters not expressly revealed in the Bahá’í Writings.” Its pronouncements, which are susceptible of amendment or abrogation by the House of Justice itself, serve to supplement and apply the Law of God. Although not invested with the function of interpretation, the House of Justice is in a position to do everything necessary to establish the World Order of Bahá’u’lláh on this earth. Unity of doctrine is maintained by the existence of the authentic texts of Scripture and the voluminous interpretations of 'Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, together with the absolute prohibition against anyone propounding “authoritative” or “inspired” interpretations or usurping the function of Guardian. Unity of administration is assured by the authority of the Universal House of Justice.

(The Universal House of Justice, from a letter dated 9 March 1965, published in “Wellspring of Guidance: Messages 1963-1968”, pp. 52-53)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 124)

Also whenever the House of Justice makes a decision on a matter the writings and interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are thoroughly reviewed:

As already announced to the friends, a careful study of the Writings and interpretations on any subject on which the House of Justice proposes to legislate always precedes its act of legislation.

The Universal House of Justice, from a letter dated 27 May 1966, published in “Wellspring of Guidance: Messages 1963-1968”, pp. 82-84)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 124)

 

[PRmerger]

Seriously???
A myth is your conclusion?

Yes. It does appear that what you have been proclaiming is a myth, is it not ? Or is it true that 750 men shot at the Bab???

 

[Servant19]

Yes. It does appear that what you have been proclaiming is a myth, is it not ? Or is it true that 750 men shot at the Bab???

Yesterday, I bought a cake to work. We sliced the cake so that there is equal portions for all the staff members. There were 7 staff members, they all had a piece each, and we sliced the cake 7 times. The cake was finished.

The truth of the matter was that there were actually 8 slices of cake, and one of the staff members offered a slice to the postman when he dropped off the mail, which none of us were aware of…

Is this whole, ENTIRE story a myth? We all assumed there were only 7 slices cut. Shall we assume that the whole thing is a lie?

Myth, or a great story of giving and sharing in a spirit of fair-mindedness, justice and kindness to all?

You can focus on the fact that we all thought there were only 7 slices of cake.

All the staff members understood the deeper meaning, why can’t you?

 

[Servant19]

One final thing also PR.

Theres nothing extraordinary about 750 soldiers or 20 soldiers. Nothing whatsoever.

There is something very extraordinary about dead corpses rising from their graves. It requires some evidence. Someone would have written down SOMETHING…

Facts, or Truths?

 

[arthra]

There seems to be some interest in the use of the word “ascension” by Baha’is…So I’ve included here how the term is used…

Baha’is use the term “ascension” to be the ascending of the soul or spirit to the spiritual world…

the act of ascending; ascent.

It’s also used by Christians to refer to the bodily ascending of Christ from earth to heaven. We however do not accept that doctrine.

Referring to Jesus:

*For if at the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as hath been written by the Imams of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious divines?

~ Baha’u’llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 13

*Referring to the Manifestations:

This sovereignty must needs be revealed and established either in the lifetime of every Manifestation of God or after His ascension unto His true habitation in the realms above…

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 26

Referring to a person destitute of all earthly possessions:

*GLORY be unto Thee, O Lord! Although Thou mayest cause a person to be destitute of all earthly possessions, and **from the beginning of his life until his ascension unto Thee *he may be reduced to poverty through the operation of Thy decree, yet wert Thou to have brought him forth from the Tree of Thy love, such a bounty would indeed be far better for him than all the things Thou hast created in heaven and earth

~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 189

Consequently, do ye not sigh in grief because of her decease, and be not dejected on account of her ascension.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 443

Speaking of man:

*In the beginning of his human life man was embryonic in the world of the matrix. There he received capacity and endowment for the reality of human existence. The forces and powers necessary for this world were bestowed upon him in that limited condition. In this world he needed eyes; he received them potentially in the other. He needed ears; he obtained them there in readiness and preparation for his new existence. The powers requisite in this world were conferred upon him in the world of the matrix, so that when he entered this realm of real existence he not only possessed all necessary functions and powers but found provision for his material sustenance awaiting him.

Therefore in this world he must prepare himself for the life beyond. That which he needs in the world of the Kingdom must be obtained here. Just as he prepared himself in the world of the matrix by acquiring forces necessary in this sphere of existence, so likewise the indispensable forces of the divine existence must be potentially attained in this world.

What is he in need of in the Kingdom which transcends the life and limitation of this mortal sphere? That world beyond is a world of sanctity and radiance; therefore it is necessary that in this world he should acquire these divine attributes. In that world there is need of spirituality, faith, assurance, the knowledge and love of God. ***These he must attain in this world so that after his ascension from the earthly to the heavenly Kingdom he shall find all that is needful in that life eternal ready for him.
**
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 63

 

[SteveVH]

Someone would have written down SOMETHING…

Someone did. It’s called the word of God.

 

[arthra]

I’ll ask my question again along with one other

When will God put world and all the evils contained therein to rights?

Also, bahai have justified their prophet’s marraige history by saying the revelation hadn’t come yet. Is not Mirza Hussain an eternal entity? Why did anything need to be revealed to him?

Well in our belief God has always been providing guidance to humanity from the beginning and this is through His Prophets and Messengers… There is an Eternal Covenant we believe that God will never leave man alone without Divine Guidance.

So it is up to man to respond to Divine Guidance… Man has a choice to respond or not.

In our belief God revealed through Baha’u’llah what is most necessary for this age…just as the divine Message was revealed to the Prophets and Messengers of the past.