BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Servant19]

Someone did. It’s called the word of God.

For proper historical verification of an extraordinary event, it requires more than that.

Again, this is the opinion of myself and several academics and scholars throughout history. This is not Baha’i official teaching

 

[SteveVH]

The Bahai Faith has provided a “fulfillment”, if you were, of the meaning of several words.

And how has it done that? The purpose of a word is to communicate. When you change the definition of a word, already defined and understood for centuries, you fail to communicate. And I must be honest, to use the word “ascended” when applied to Baha’u’llah appears to be nothing more than ascribing a type of divinity which in reality did not exist. He did not ascend. He died. That is the objective truth.

Off the top of my head, the words heaven, ascension and especially “unity” have found their true meaning in Baha’u’llahs revelation

If the words “heaven” and “unity” are defined by the same source as that which defined “ascension”, I would look for another source. Words do not mean just anything one chooses them to mean. If that is the case then we cease to communicate, as evidenced by much of the past three threads on this subject.

 

[SteveVH]

For proper historical verification of an extraordinary event, it requires more than that.

But apparently not when it comes to the Baha’i faith. Then proper historical verification becomes somehow unimportant.

Has there ever been an extraordinary event within the Baha’i faith? If so, please tell me how it was verified historically?

 

[arthra]

Here’s a definition of “Heaven” from the Writings:

The term ** “heaven”** denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. Upon their thrones is written:** “Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing;”** and on their seats is inscribed: "Verily, His ways differ every day."1 They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: "coming in the clouds of heaven."

In the utterances of the divine Luminaries the term “heaven” hath been applied to many and divers things; such as the “heaven of Command,” the “heaven of Will,” the “heaven of the divine Purpose,” the “heaven of divine Knowledge,” the “heaven of Certitude,” the “heaven of Utterance,” the “heaven of Revelation,” the “heaven of Concealment,” and the like. In every instance, He hath given the term “heaven” a special meaning, the significance of which is revealed to none save those that have been initiated into the divine mysteries, and have drunk from the chalice of immortal life. For example, He saith: "The heaven hath sustenance for you, and it containeth that which you are promised;"1 whereas it is the earth that yieldeth such sustenance. Likewise, it hath been said: “The names come down from heaven;” whereas they proceed out of the mouth of men. Wert thou to cleanse the mirror of thy heart from the dust of malice, thou wouldst apprehend the meaning of the symbolic terms revealed by the all-embracing Word of God made manifest in every Dispensation, and wouldst discover the mysteries of divine knowledge.

• Kitab-i-Iqan pp. 67-68

bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/iqan/iq-1.htm#067

 

[PRmerger]

Yesterday, I bought a cake to work. We sliced the cake so that there is equal portions for all the staff members. There were 7 staff members, they all had a piece each, and we sliced the cake 7 times. The cake was finished.

The truth of the matter was that there were actually 8 slices of cake, and one of the staff members offered a slice to the postman when he dropped off the mail, which none of us were aware of…

Is this whole, ENTIRE story a myth? We all assumed there were only 7 slices cut. Shall we assume that the whole thing is a lie?

Let’s actually make it a more accurate depiction of the Bahai paradigm:

Years from now someone hears of this event and, in Swahili, tells the story. But now it’s this: there were 750 slices of cake, and, miraculously, after everyone ate, they floated up to heaven.

Is this a myth?

Um…yes, it very much does qualify for one.

And later, people hearing this astonishing story say, “It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. The truths of this story being conveyed are what’s important. And the truth is this: when one eats too many pieces of cake, one feels as if she is bloated. And that’s kind of like what it feels like to be in heaven.”

 

[PRmerger]

One final thing also PR.

Theres nothing extraordinary about 750 soldiers or 20 soldiers. Nothing whatsoever.

Surviving 750 soldiers is extraordinary.

20 soldiers, not so much.

The mythical aspects of this story are getting more and more incredulous.

And it turns out that all of you Bahais here were accepting a literal interpretation of the events…

which is most egregious given the fact that you all were objecting to the Christian literal understanding of the resurrection.

 

[PRmerger]

Someone would have written down SOMETHING…

Umm…you have heard of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul, yes?

At any rate, your declaration that someone would have recorded this event on papyrus is astonishingly ethnocentric and parochial.

That’s how you view things, 2000 year later. That’s how you think important events should be preserved.

But that wasn’t the paradigm 2000 years ago in ancient Israel.

A parallel would be for you to declare:* if something happened with the Aborigines today, why didn’t one of them Tweet this event? Huh? Why didn’t they do that??? Can you tell us? Or at least, they could have put it on Instragram, right?? Even if they can’t write they could at least post a picture of the event!*

 

[Servant19]

Let’s actually make it a more accurate depiction of the Bahai paradigm:

Years from now someone hears of this event and, in Swahili, tells the story. But now it’s this: there were 750 slices of cake, and, miraculously, after everyone ate, they floated up to heaven.

Is this a myth?

Um…yes, it very much does qualify for one.

And later, people hearing this astonishing story say, “It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. The truths of this story being conveyed are what’s important. And the truth is this: when one eats too many pieces of cake, one feels as if she is bloated. And that’s kind of like what it feels like to be in heaven.”

Floated? LOL

what on earth made you think that He floated?

Again, I would suggest you look at what the Bahai Faith says about science and religion. Any thing that goes against the established laws of current empirical science is considered superstition.

Baha’i Faith is not a superstitious Faith.

There is more than likely a very scientific explanation, and one day, who knows it may well find its way into the Discovery Channel.

You want real miracles, the rapidity of Revelation and the way just one paragraph, one sentence, one Word, can change a gnat into an eagle.

That’s true science…

LOL, loved your analogy above, it honestly made me laugh out loud, not in a patronizing way, I assure you, but just the thought of bloated being like heaven!

 

[PRmerger]

Floated? LOL

what on earth made you think that He floated?

I think you are not understanding how analogies work.

I didn’t say He floated.

I gave an example of how your story could become quite easily a myth. Someone misunderstood your work event.

 

[PRmerger]

There is more than likely a very scientific explanation, and one day, who knows it may well find its way into the Discovery Channel.

Egg-zactly.

So there is no evidence, whatsoever, that your holy prophets did anything miraculous.

And therefore no evidence, whatosever, that your holy prophets are divine.

The very scientific explanations will only serve to show this: your holy prophets are men who write some very nice things.

I happened to read some things by Thomas Merton the other day. His writings are interesting spiritually.

I might put your holy prophets on the same page as Thomas Merton. Interesting spiritual teachings, but where they diverge from the Word of God is where we say, “Nope, not so much.”

And Thomas Merton, while being an astute spiritual thinker, like your holy prophets, is definitely NOT part of the Godhead.

 

[Servant19]

Egg-zactly.

So there is no evidence, whatsoever, that your holy prophets did anything miraculous.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah by Bahai and maybe some non-Bahai writers (I’m really not sure, it’s not important to me to find out) EGG-ZACTLY the same as there is only anecdotal evidence by only Christian writers for Jesus’ miracles. No difference there…

And therefore no evidence, whatosever, that your holy prophets are divine.

With the request for evidence that you are now requesting from the Baha’is, I am assuming that you are now equally in need of similar evidence for Jesus’ miracles (unless of course you are directing this line of argument for uncharitable purposes), which would beg the question if any aspect of Jesus’ life story is actually factual, but rather a conveyance of Truths.

I would ask you then, based on your own parameters for the factual verification of any miracles, what evidence is there for Jesus’ divinity?

The very scientific explanations will only serve to show this: your holy prophets are men who write some very nice things.

I happened to read some things by Thomas Merton the other day. His writings are interesting spiritually.

I might put your holy prophets on the same page as Thomas Merton. Interesting spiritual teachings, but where they diverge from the Word of God is where we say, “Nope, not so much.”

And Thomas Merton, while being an astute spiritual thinker, like your holy prophets, is definitely NOT part of the Godhead.

All of which can therefore be attributed to Jesus.

Unless of course, you look beyond the miracles

 

[arthra]

Nabil-i-Zarandi collected reports from those around him… His “narrative” is accepted by Baha’is but it is not the Writings… It is often read at Holy Days such as the Martyrdom of the Bab but it is not regarded as “sacred scripture” in the way say that Christians regard the Gospels.

Nabil’s Narrative is a history.

See Nabil’s Narrative or the Dawn Breakers online

bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/

From the introduction:

 Nabil, himself a participant in some of the scenes which  he recites, took up his lonely pen to recite the truth about  men and women so mercilessly persecuted and a movement  so grievously traduced. 



 He writes with ease, and when his emotions are strongly  stirred his style becomes vigorous and trenchant.  He does  not present with any system the claims and teaching of  Baha'u'llah and His Forerunner.  His purpose is the simple  one of rehearsing the beginnings of the Baha'i Revelation  and of preserving the remembrance of the deeds of its early  champions.  He relates a series of incidents, punctiliously  quoting his authority for almost every item of information.   His work in consequence, if less artistic and philosophic,  gains in value as a literal account of what he knew or could  from credible witnesses discover about the early history of the Cause. 



 The main features of the narrative (the saintly heroic  figure of the Bab, a leader so mild and so serene, yet eager,  resolute, and dominant; the devotion of his followers facing  oppression with unbroken courage and often with ecstasy;  the rage of a jealous priesthood inflaming for its own purpose  the passions of a bloodthirsty populace--these speak a language  which all may understand.  But it is not easy to  follow the narrative in its details, or to appreciate how stupendous  was the task undertaken by Baha'u'llah and His  Forerunner, without some knowledge of the condition of  church and state in Persia and of the customs and mental  outlook of the people and their masters Nabil took this  knowledge for granted.  He had himself travelled little if at  all beyond the boundary of the empires of the Shah and the  Sultan, and it did not occur to him to institute comparisons  between his own and foreign civilisations.

He was not addressing the Western reader. Though he was conscious that the material he had collected was of more than national or Islamic importance and that it would before long spread both eastward and westward until it encircled the globe, yet he was an Oriental writing in an Oriental language for those who used it, and the unique work which he so faithfully accomplished was in itself a great and laborious task.

…

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai religion does not offer salvation to our souls.

salvation is ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ.

so, while the bahaullah has impressed many with his wisdom and teachings, he can save no man.

in fact, bahaullah did not believe or teach that there is an end to man’s search. there is no respite for humans in bahai.

there may be consolation and encouragement in bahai, but there is NO SALVATION for anyone.

now, it may well be that bahaullah and bab did not teach that salvation was necessary; but,the wretchedness of lives lived without faith in Jesus disproves such a teaching.

without faith in Jesus, there is no hope because for what is a person to hope.

without faith in Jesus, there is only a human imitation of the love given us through the death of Jesus.

i have no doubt that members of the bahai religion are sincere, but sincerity and truth are not the same thing.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

You are saying that it not literally true that there were 750 muskets used in this execution. That it is a misunderstanding.

And none of the Bahais here on this forum knew this???

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:13

The same gap between the knowledge provided by academic research, and the knowledge transmitted among the faithful, is found in all religions. While I was studying at Holy Cross in Mosgiel, New Zealand, the Pius IX society got wind of what the students were learning about the bible texts, early church history and the evolution of dogma, and they tried to make a big fuss about it. Fortunately, as far as I could tell as an outsider there, no-one at the seminary or in the church took them very seriously. No heads rolled. But a few years earlier at the Presbyterian Hall in Dunedin (different part of the same town in reality), one of the lecturers (Lloyd Geering) was charged with heresy. His research was not enormously out of line with what other biblical scholars have found and opined, but quite different to the certainties that are cherished by the people in the pews on a Sunday. He had to give up teaching, and this was just before I started study, so I regret to say that I was never his student.

The gap in knowledge persists, because a theologian worth his salt (or worth the name of “salt”) does not set out to be a stumbling block for the faithful, or to win a big name with new discoveries. One must ask, “who is served by this?” and if the answer is “my ego” then silence is better. Finem Respice

Follow thou the way of thy Lord, and say not that which the ears cannot bear to hear, for such speech is like luscious food given to small children. However palatable, rare and rich the food may be, it cannot be assimilated by the digestive organs of a suckling child. Therefore unto every one who hath a right, let his settled measure be given.

‘Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.’ Such is the consummate wisdom to be observed in thy pursuits. Be not oblivious thereof, if thou wishest to be a man of action under all conditions. First diagnose the disease and identify the malady, then prescribe the remedy, for such is the perfect method of the skilful physician.
(Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 268)

 

[eddie_too]

it has been pointed out more than once, that the arguments used against the RCC can be used against the bahai religion.

but, no one has demonstrated how the arguments that support the RCC’s faith in Jesus can be used to support any other religions.

for example, Jesus conquered death. Jesus established apostolic succession. Jesus offers salvation. Jesus provides a guarantee that His Church has what it needs to overcome evil. Jesus provides a way to eternal life. Jesus overcomes sin.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Also, I would like to know if the Universal House of Justice claims that it has the authority to interpret the Scriptures?

It states clearly that it does not have the authority or the function of interpreting scriptures:

The elucidations of the Universal House of Justice stem from its legislative function, and as such differ from interpretation. The divinely inspired legislation of the House of Justice does not attempt to say what the revealed Word means – **it states what must be done **in cases where the revealed Text or its authoritative interpretation is not explicit.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1994 Dec 15, Elucidations of the House of Justice)

 

[Lochias]

For proper historical verification of an extraordinary event, it requires more than that.

So that means that your story of the Bab being shot 750 times cannot be historically verified, and as such, is false information. The hypocrisy of your cult is absolutely staggering.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… the very fact that that number was ratified by a Manifestation of God Himself, and again ratified during translation by the Centre of His Covenant, Shoghi Effendi,] implies it as factual.

One cannot determine facts on the basis of an appeal to authority. Bahais are not asked to believe what ain’t so (Mark Twain). The Universal House of Justice writes:

The Guardian was meticulous about the authenticity of historical fact. One of the friends in Yazd wrote to him stating that the account given by 'Abdu’l-Bahá in one of His Tablets about events related to the martyrdom of some of the believers in that place was in conflict with known facts about these events. Shoghi Effendi replied saying that the friends should investigate the facts carefully and unhesitatingly register them in their historical records, since 'Abdu’l-Bahá Himself had prefaced His recording of the events in His Tablet with a statement that it was based on news received from Yazd.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1974 Jul 25, Infallibility of the Guardian)

 

[eddie_too]

lochias

it may be that the bahai are ignorant and incredulous more than hypocritical.

i believe that the bahai who have commented here are sincere in their beliefs but uninformed as to our beliefs.

there are nearly two millenium of writings, hundreds of thousands of pages, by catholic saints, mystics and believers.

i am almost 100% certain that none of those bahai commenting here, nor any other bahai are familiar with all of those writings. most likely, they are not even familiar with most of the earliest christian writer such as ignatius of antioch, polycarp of smyrna, irenaeus of lyon, etc. then throw in st. jerome, st. augustine and you begin to get a picture of how ignorant most people are of the understandings of our catholic faith.

they have, as do many other religions and protestant denominations only their own interpretations of the sacred scriptures. it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to interpret sacred scripture as it was meant to be interpreted without having extensive background in the catholic faith.

add to that the fact that a single scripture verse can have different levels of meaning and understanding and it is easy to see why people remain ignorant of our faith.

that makes it incumbent upon us to live our lives in a manner that raises curiosity in the unbelivers. remember that historical reference, “look at those christians, see how they love one another”?

 

[eddie_too]

both bab and bahaullah were invincibly ignorant of the faith given us by Jesus Christ.