Baptism, non-essential!

[JaneFrances]

Tertullian goes on to say in 20…That those who are to be baptized should…

** “pray with repeated prayers, fasts, and bendings of the knee, and vigils all the night through, and with the confession of all by gone sins” **

My son would have really struggled doing this at 4 weeks of age…

Yes, myfavoritmartin, Tertullian was arguably opposed to infant Baptism. Here’s a statement which I believe clearly reflects his thoughts on this:

Tertullian, treatise on BAPTISM 18,4 (c. AD 200-206)

"According to circumstance and disposition and even age of the individual person, it may be better to delay Baptism; and especially so in the case of little children. Why, indeed, is it necessary – if it be not a case of necessity – that the sponsors to be thrust into danger, when they themselves may fail to fulfill their promises by reason of death, or when they may be disappointed by the growth of an evil disposition? Indeed the Lord says, ‘Do not forbid them to come to me’ [Matt 19:14; Luke 18:16].

“Let them come, then, while they grow up, while they learn, while they are taught to whom to come; let them become Christians when they will have been able to know Christ! Why does the innocent age hasten to the remission of sins? …For no less cause should the unmarried also be deferred, in whom there is an aptness to temptation – in virgins on account of their ripeness as also in the widowed on account of their freedom – until they are married or are better strengthened for continence. Anyone who understands the seriousness of Baptism will fear its reception more than its deferral. Sound faith is secure of its salvation!”

He opposed infant and early childhood Baptism because of his understanding of the regenerative effects of Baptism for the remission of sins.

I understand that you agree with Tertullian on infant Baptism. Do you also agree with him on Baptismal regeneration and the reason he opposed infant Baptism?

 

[Lampo]

snip…my post from another thread…

to understand Catholic teaching on infant baptism, it is essential to first understand the Catholic teaching on original sin.

The doctrine on OS(original sin) is essentially, “In Adam all have sinned.” It parallels justification “In Christ all are righteous.” We must look at Roman 5:12-21. We are all subjects to sin & death because of Adam’s sin. By one’s trespass, condemnation was brought to all men. The CCC says OS is a sin “contracted”, not “committed.” - 404. When we are born, we are in a state of original sin. God was testing all of mankind through Adam.

If there is no such thing as OS, then why aren’t we born in the Garden of Eden? There was a fundamental change in everything. The gift of living in paradise was restored with the “second Adam” - Jesus; but we do not come into the world with that gift. We must first be born of the flesh, then “born again” of the spirit - baptism.

Romans 5 basically is the first Adam’s disobedience and the second Adam’s obedience. They parallel each other. One man’s disobedience leads to death for all. One man’s obedience leads to life for all. - 1 Cor. 15:12-22.

Eph. 2:3 reflects teaching on OS - “By nature we were children of wrath.”

There is no Scripture verse that says to baptize infants, just like there is no Scripture verse that says NOT to baptize infants. The Church's teaching flows from (1) Original Sin; (2) the sacrament itself.

The argument that all the baptisms in the NT were "believer's baptisms" of adults, therefore infant baptism is contrary to Scripture because is is not in there, is not well thought out.

The Catholic Church teaches that contraception is immoral and thwarts God's law. Do you believe contraception is okay? There are plenty of Protestants who take your position on infant baptism and believe that contraception is acceptable. Can you show me one instance in Scripture where Christians use contraception? Since you can't, the reasoning isn't consistent. If it's not mentioned in the Bible, then it is NOT okay to do (when it comes to infant baptism.) If it's not mentioned in the Bible(contraception) then it is OKAY to do. See the inconsistency?

When something new like baptism comes along it will be the adults first. Like circumcision in the OT at first.
Reply With Quote

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The lion’s share of what the New Testament speaks about salvation doesn’t include baptism at all!

SEE…
John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9,
FOR STARTERS.

As I stated earlier the few places that do mention** water **baptism do not include it as part of one’s salvation.
Water baptism follows salvation as one of the first steps of obedience for a new believer.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Yes, myfavoritmartin, Tertullian was arguably opposed to infant Baptism. Here’s a statement which I believe clearly reflects his thoughts on this:

Tertullian, treatise on BAPTISM 18,4 (c. AD 200-206)

He opposed infant and early childhood Baptism because of his understanding of the regenerative effects of Baptism for the remission of sins.

I understand that you agree with Tertullian on infant Baptism. Do you also agree with him on Baptismal regeneration and the reason he opposed infant Baptism?

Before I answer where do you stand on Abraham was he saved on faith alone?

 

[JaneFrances]

Clement, wrote that we’re saved through faith, apart from works. He excludes all works, even
"works that we have done in holiness of heart" (First Clement, 32).

Great quotation. . .are you asserting, then, that you believe Clement of Rome did not believe in Baptism for the remission of sin? Is that what you mean?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

The chronological order of things is 1.) BELIEVE 2.) be Baptized.

The action of pouring water over an infant does no more toward eternal salvation than taking a shower does. God’s grace is the only thing that saves an undiscerning infant.

Actually God’s grace is the only thing that saves anyone!

Why the distinction for babies? Is it your opinion that they aren’t fully human until they can have faith?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Great quotation. . .are you asserting, then, that you believe Clement of Rome did not believe in Baptism for the remission of sin? Is that what you mean?

Let me just say,his view of salvation was contradictory to that of the RCC. He speaks nothing in regards to baptismal regeneration, but instead refers to us being saved the same way people were saved prior to the institution of baptism.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Actually God’s grace is the only thing that saves anyone!

Why the distinction for babies? Is it your opinion that they aren’t fully human until they can have faith?

My point is God’s character and justice clearly indicates He would not have infants sent to eternal damnation and a dip in the water from the part of the parents just isn’t necessary, haven’t you read scripture which speaks greatly to the character and justice of our CREATOR?

 

[Lampo]

myfavoritmartin…does your tagline suggest that there is no effort on your part needed? Except for the one-time proclamation of course?

 

[RobNY]

I said faith is not possible for infants

Yes! As I mentioned; John the Baptist, Jeremiah, and Abraham are examples of God’s character and justice in this regard

Correct!

The Holy Spirit and God’s grace is all that is required for regeneration…So in a sense you are right, at least from an infant POV.

Ok then. Just as faith is not necessary for those for whom it is impossible, likewise for baptism. Do you understand?

-Rob

 

[myfavoritmartin]

RobNY:
Ok then. Just as faith is not necessary for those for whom it is impossible, likewise for baptism. Do you understand?

-Rob

Not the same.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

myfavoritmartin…does your tagline suggest that there is no effort on your part needed? Except for the one-time proclamation of course?

You’ll have clarify your question alittle more.

 

[Lampo]

You’ll have clarify your question alittle more.

Okie doke. Your tagline, “I don’t need to be on the swim team…My team owner carries me accross the top of the water…” Does that imply that there is no effort needed on your part to gain salvation? Except for proclaiming Jesus Christ as your personal…at some pint in your life?

 

[RobNY]

Not the same.

Why?

-Rob

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why?

-Rob

You must be regenerate to have faith.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Before we get sidetracked here are a few verses that back the predestined regenerate then faith stance…

John 6:44,65No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. And he said, ‘For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.’
<< >>

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and put a new and right spirit within me.
<< >>
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.
<< >>
John 6:28-29Then they said to him, ‘What must we do to perform the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’
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Ephesians 1:4just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.
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2 Thess. 2:13-14
Chosen for SalvationBut we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. For this purpose he called you through our proclamation of the good news, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
<< >>
Philippians 1:29For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—
<< >>
2 Tim. 2:24-26And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
<< >>
2 Tim. 1:9who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
<< >>
1 Pet. 1:3
A Living HopeBlessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
<< >>
Rom. 8:29-30For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
<< >>
Ephesians 1:5He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,
<< >>
Ephesians 1:11In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,
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John 1:12-13 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.

 

[RobNY]

You must be regenerate to have faith.

Could you be specific-- I’d prefer if you defined it yourself-- about what you mean by faith, specifically.

-Rob

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Could you be specific-- I’d prefer if you defined it yourself-- about what you mean by faith, specifically.

-Rob

Before we get sidetracked here are a few verses that back the predestined regenerate then faith stance…

John 6:44,65No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. And he said, ‘For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.’
<< >>

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and put a new and right spirit within me.
<< >>
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.
<< >>
<< >>
Ephesians 1:4 just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.
<< >>
2 Thess. 2:13-14
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. For this purpose **he called you **through our proclamation of the good news, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
<< >>
Philippians 1:29For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—
<< >>
2 Tim. 2:24-26And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness. God **may perhaps grant **that they will repent and come to know the truth, and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
<< >>
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
<< >>
1 Pet. 1:3
A Living HopeBlessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! **By his great mercy he has given us **a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
<< >>
Rom. 8:29-30For **those whom he foreknew he also predestined **to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
<< >>
Ephesians 1:5He **destined us for adoption **as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,
<< >>
Ephesians 1:11In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,
<< >>
John 1:12-13 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.

 

[RobNY]

myfavoritmartin,

That’s not very helpful. When I read Scripture I do not see what you see. You need to formulate what you think faith is, in your own words. That’s not to say you can’t take support from Scripture, that’s just to say that I need it in your own words because as long as you give me the words of Scripture, I hear truth which is completely consistent with the Catholic faith.

That being said, you don’t need to go prooftexting the definition I’m asking you for, because my purpose is not to critique your definition of faith, but your position about faith and regeneration. So just tell me what you think faith is so I can engage in discussion with your position that regeneration precedes faith.

-Rob

 

[myfavoritmartin]

When I read Scripture I do not see what you see.

I pray one day you will though!

You need to formulate what you think faith is, in your own words.

Faith? knowing when I breathe out this breath I’ll be able to breathe in the next…That is faith.

That’s not to say you can’t take support from Scripture, that’s just to say that I need it in your own words because as long as you give me the words of Scripture, I hear truth which is completely consistent with the Catholic faith.

See the scriptures at the end of this post and share with me the Catholic POV on them if you would.

That being said, you don’t need to go prooftexting the definition I’m asking you for, because my purpose is not to critique your definition of faith, but your position about faith and regeneration. So just tell me what you think faith is so I can engage in discussion with your position that regeneration precedes faith.

-Rob

As long as you can only understand the word as defined by the church you’ll never understand it, hence I am wasting my breath.
BTW Paul prooftexted many times. Let me know if you’d like me to show you…Sacred scripture has many many layers to it, and the RCC is as good at peeling away layers and presenting them individually and gathered with others as anyone.​

Hopefully this will help you understand how one can be regenerate prior to faith…
1 Cor. 2:14
Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are discerned spiritually.
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Mark 7:21-23 For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.’

<< >>
Rom. 3:11
there is no one who has understanding,
there is no one who seeks God.
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1 Tim. 1:9This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers,