Baptism, non-essential!

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Martin,

The only reason I’m asking you what you think faith is, is because I don’t want to present an argument to you, and have it shot down because you don’t think that’s what faith is/or changed your mind on how precisely you define it. What I’m trying to establish is a meeting of minds-- so that when we use terms we each know what the other means by them, which facilitates dialogue. I appreciate your prayers, and I will pray for you likewise.

Because I can’t seem to get a straight answer out of you, by faith, do you mean being disciples of Christ and believing in Him?
 
Martin,

The only reason I’m asking you what you think faith is, is because I don’t want to present an argument to you, and have it shot down because you don’t think that’s what faith is/or changed your mind on how precisely you define it. What I’m trying to establish is a meeting of minds-- so that when we use terms we each know what the other means by them, which facilitates dialogue. I appreciate your prayers, and I will pray for you likewise.

Because I can’t seem to get a straight answer out of you, by faith, do you mean being disciples of Christ and believing in Him?
Here’s what my intruction book teaches me about what faith is…
Faith
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1).

It is synonymous with trust. It is a divine gift (Rom. 12:3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
and comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom. 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
. It is the means by which the grace of God is accounted to the believer who trusts in the work of Jesus on the
cross
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. .
It is by faith that we live our lives, “The righteous shall live by faith,” Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 
Thank you Martin.

Is it possible to be a believer in the Lord, and to be His disciple, and yet not to have received the Holy Spirit?

-Rob
 
Clement, wrote that we’re saved through faith, apart from works. He excludes all works, even
"works that we have done in holiness of heart" (First Clement, 32).
Hmmmm. . .I’m not so sure you’ve read all of Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, especially as you have taken your quotation out of context to mean “saved through faith, apart from works” which, of course, Pope St. Clement never says.

For a more complete assessment of Clement’s teaching you may read the letter here in context: newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

But for the sake of anyone not wishing to read through the 65 short chapters, here’s a more robust representation of Clement’s soteriology:
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught the necessity of repentance towards salvation.
These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. . .Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. Let us look steadfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites; Jonah iii but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.
from Chapter 7
The ministers of the grace of God have, by the Holy Spirit, spoken of repentance. . .And in another place He speaks thus: “Wash you and become clean; put away the wickedness of your souls from before my eyes; cease from your evil ways, and learn to do well; . . . And if you be willing and obey me, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse, and will not hearken unto me, the sword shall devour you, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken these things.” Isaiah 1:16-20 Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be partakers of repentance, He has, by His almighty will, established [these declarations].
from Chapter 8
  1. Pope St. Clement taught justification by obedience and by faith.
Wherefore, let us yield obedience to His excellent and glorious will; and imploring His mercy and loving-kindness, while we forsake all fruitless labours and strife, and envy, which leads to death, let us turn and have recourse to His compassions. Let us steadfastly contemplate those who have perfectly ministered to his excellent glory. Let us take (for instance) Enoch, who, being found righteous in obedience, was translated, and death was never known to happen to him. Noah, being found faithful, preached regeneration to the world through his ministry; and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark.
From Chapter 9
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that Abraham was justified by faith and obedience, per St. Paul’s instruction: “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)”
    .
Abraham, styled “the friend,” was found faithful, inasmuch as he rendered obedience to the words of God
from Chapter 10
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that people are not saved by faith alone.
On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. . .You see, beloved, that there was not only faith, but prophecy, in this woman.
from Chapter 12

continued. . .
 
. . .continued
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that nothing of ourselves will make us justified before God, only His work in us by grace. Both faith and work are gifts of grace–not of ourselves, lest we boast!
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. . . All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever.
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that faithful obedience (faith working in love, as St. Paul coins it) is required for salvation.
How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence, faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! . . . Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vain glory and ambition.
Thus, as the plain texts clearly offer, Pope St. Clement of Rome did not preach a false “saved by faith alone” gospel. Instead, as father and servant of the Church, presiding in Rome, he taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ which does not separate faith from works. He taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ which always necessitates grace manifested as faith, repentance, and obedience for the salvation of souls.
 
Jane I see you have seemed to skip over this…
( first clement 32-33)
“**And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. ** What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness.” (32-33)
 
Matthew 25:When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
The Church teaches that those who have no power of their own to learn the gospel or be baptized but actually do good works as described in Matthew 25 will be judged according to the mercy of God, and they can be saved as well.
 
.6) Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that faithful obedience (faith working in love, as St. Paul coins it) is required for salvation.
Check it out Jane I’d say Clement was neither catholic nor calvinist, rather Methodist…Take a look.

“For as God liveth, and as the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, the confidence and hope of the elect, he who observeth in humility with earnest obedience, and repining not, the ordinances and commands given by God, he shall be reckoned and counted in the number of them that are saved by Jesus Christ” (58)
 
The Church teaches that those who have no power of their own to learn the gospel or be baptized but actually do good works as described in Matthew 25 will be judged according to the mercy of God, and they can be saved as well.
The church may but scripture doesn’t.
 
Check it out Jane I’d say Clement was neither catholic nor calvinist, rather Methodist…Take a look.

“For as God liveth, and as the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, the confidence and hope of the elect, he who observeth in humility with earnest obedience, and repining not, the ordinances and commands given by God, he shall be reckoned and counted in the number of them that are saved by Jesus Christ” (58)
Interesting side track! I don’t know much about the modern Methodist Church, but I’d bet the Pope considered himself a Catholic. 😉
 
Jane I see you have seemed to skip over this…
( first clement 32-33)
Nope, didn’t skip it. . .see post #258. I quoted it! Oh, shucks, I’ll save you the time. . . Here it is again:
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that nothing of ourselves will make us justified before God, only His work in us by grace. Both faith and work are gifts of grace–not of ourselves, lest we boast!
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. . . All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever.
  1. Pope St. Clement of Rome taught that faithful obedience (faith working in love, as St. Paul coins it) is required for salvation.
How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence, faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! . . . Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vain glory and ambition.
Thus, as the plain texts clearly offer, Pope St. Clement of Rome did not preach a false “saved by faith alone” gospel. Instead, as father and servant of the Church, presiding in Rome, he taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ which does not separate faith from works. He taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ which always necessitates grace manifested as faith, repentance, and obedience for the salvation of souls.
 
Thank you Martin.

Is it possible to be a believer in the Lord, and to be His disciple, and yet not to have received the Holy Spirit?

-Rob
I hate to quote myself, martin, but, could you answer this?
 
I said faith is not possible for infants

Yes! As I mentioned; John the Baptist, Jeremiah, and Abraham are examples of God’s character and justice in this regard

The Holy Spirit and God’s grace is all that is required for regeneration…So in a sense you are right, at least from an infant POV.
If this is true, then why does scripture say “by grace your are saved THROUGH faith”?

For the record, I think that faith IS necessary for salvation. It is not necessarily the faith of the saved person, but may be of the parent, or other person who God has ordained to “cover” that individual.
 
Tertullian goes on to say in 20…That those who are to be baptized should…

** “pray with repeated prayers, fasts, and bendings of the knee, and vigils all the night through, and with the confession of all by gone sins” **

My son would have really struggled doing this at 4 weeks of age…
LOL! They are not even on their knees by that time! Tertullian, though, is speaking about adult baptism, not infants. But we do hear from the Fathers on the topic of infants elsewhere:

Council of Carthage (254 AD)

“We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God… especially infants. . . those newly born.”

Cyprian

“Should we wait until the eighth day as did the Jews in circumcision? No, the child should be baptized as soon as it is born.” (To Fidus 1: 2).

“In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of
God is not to be refused to any one born of man… Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision… we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being
lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another” (Letter 58 to Fidus).

“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from
baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 64:5).

Gregory of Nazianz

“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly *, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).

John Chrysostom

“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine,
Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Council of Carthage (418 AD)

“If any man says that newborn children need not be baptized . . . let him be anathema.”

Augustine

“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

“Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth
day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born” (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

“If you wish to be a Christian, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.”

“Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without participation in His sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole church which hastens to baptize infants, because it nhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ.”*
 
Clement, wrote that we’re saved through faith, apart from works. He excludes all works, even
"works that we have done in holiness of heart" (First Clement, 32).
It is very gratifying to know that you are reading the Fathers, mfm.👍
 
The chronological order of things is 1.) BELIEVE 2.) be Baptized.

The action of pouring water over an infant does no more toward eternal salvation than taking a shower does. God’s grace is the only thing that saves an undiscerning infant.
Yes and no, Simon. Faith is required for baptism to be efficacious. When an infant is baptized, it is done throught the faith of the parents/godparents. Otherwise, you are right, it is just a bath of water.

It is true that God’s grace is the only thing that saves any of us, but it is through faith that we connect with that grace, and allow that grace to effect changes in us and our loved ones. I already posted a long one of quotes from the Fathers about infant baptism. Do you believe they were all off their nut? How did the Church persist in such error for 1500 years?
 
The lion’s share of what the New Testament speaks about salvation doesn’t include baptism at all!

SEE…
John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9,
FOR STARTERS.

As I stated earlier the few places that do mention** water **baptism do not include it as part of one’s salvation.
Water baptism follows salvation as one of the first steps of obedience for a new believer.
That being the case, if a person fails to take those first steps of obedience, is one really saved?
My point is God’s character and justice clearly indicates He would not have infants sent to eternal damnation and a dip in the water from the part of the parents just isn’t necessary, haven’t you read scripture which speaks greatly to the character and justice of our CREATOR?
Yes, and I have also read in that same scripture that not everyone chooses to partake of His character and justice. I have read that He expects people to take some action to indicate that they participate. In the Old Covenant, it was circumcision. In the New, it is baptism.
 
You must be regenerate to have faith.
Hogwarsh! Unregenerate people have faith. They just put it into unregenerate places. Faith is a quality of humanity with which we are born. In order for salvation to happen, faith must be mixed with God’s grace. Placing faith in God is our part, providing the grace is God’s. Together, these produce saving faith.

Heb. 4:1 Let us fear therefore lest the promise being left of entering into his rest, any of you should be thought to be wanting.

2 For unto us also it hath been declared, in like manner as unto them. But the word of hearing did not profit them, not being mixed with faith of those things they heard.

3 For we, who have believed, shall enter into rest; as he said: As I have sworn in my wrath; If they shall enter into my rest; and this indeed when the works from the foundation of the world were finished.
 
“I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel…” (1 Cor. 1:14-17).

If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn’t necessary for salvation.
What he is clearly down playing here is not baptism, but himself.

He does not say (or even imply here) that they not already baptised or did not need to be baptised.

He’s explaining why he didn’t often do it hmself.

Walking around with a trail of miracles he didn’t want folks thinking he was the one that was important, just like elesewhere he emphasizes that folks were not baptised as followers of Peter or Paul etc. but of Christ.

Chuck
 
The Catholic Church has implicitly recognized that water baptism is not absolutely necessary by recognizing the baptism of desire. If someone dies desiring baptism they are treated as if they had been baptized. Why else are they treated this way except because they have faith? If they are treated as baptized when they die, what happens if they actually receive water baptism? Is baptism of desire some type of conditional baptism that ends with water baptism?

By the way, everyone who believes should desire baptism if for no other reason than Jesus said to baptize.
What’s being presented here is however an obstinate refusal to be baptised.

A baptism of desire would not seem to apply.

Chuck
 
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