Baptism

[rev_kevin]

Yes they can. They believe more than you or I. They can see the angels.
How do you know this?

As a side point–can the mentally disabled understand the word of God?

That passage does not say that. You made that up. Futhermore, there are five passages regarding whole households being baptized. Your argument does not hold water. Infants are part of the household.

Households include infants.
Yes it is. And it confirms the apostolic understanding of the Orthodox and Catholic Church. You are constantly attacking the practice of infant baptism on this forum—and you are constantly proven wrong using Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Even the early reformers and many of today’s protestant groups support infant baptism.

Your innovative and relatively new (mostly baptist) theology is an unfortunate development–yet you continue preach this falsehood. How sad.

1. What? They can believe more then you and I. Ask a infant who God is. They can’t reason or understand this because their brains are not fully developed as infants.
   As far as seeing angels. Can you prove that?
2. Like I said their brains are not fully developed.
   How do you know they can understand the Word of God. Even adults don’t fully understand it fully. Do you understand if fully?
3. I did not say it was Scripture. Its and ovservation. Where did you get Scripture from it.
   Please give me the 5 passages.
4. Show me 1 example in the Bible where it states that “infants” were Baptized.
5. Besides “household” give me a example of infant Baptism.
   Since when does asking questions or giving my point of view considered an attack.
6. Your last statement could be concered a attack by saying I’m preaching falsehoods because its not the way you want me to see it.

 

[jmcrae]

1. What? They can believe more then you and I. Ask a infant who God is. They can’t reason or understand this because their brains are not fully developed as infants.

This is the heresy of Gnosticism - that only those with understanding can be saved.

As far as seeing angels. Can you prove that?

It is a commonly- reported phenomenon, that little children see “yellow men” or “golden people” looking out for them and taking care of them.

 

[rev_kevin]

This is the heresy of Gnosticism - that only those with understanding can be saved.

It is a commonly- reported phenomenon, that little children see “yellow men” or “golden people” looking out for them and taking care of them.

1. Show me different in the Bible.? How can they understand what is being told to them, they don’t understand the difference of yes and no, or good and bad. so how can they understand the word of God when they don’t even know what language is or that they even have hands and feet. How can one be saved if they don’t understand what it means to be saved. If they don’t under the concept of forgiveness, or what salvation is how can they be truely saved?.
2. Little children are not infants are they, big difference.
   So are aliens and U.F.O.'s commonly reported phenomenon, little grey or green men, does that make them real.

 

[SonofMonica]

Do you really think Jesus Christ is limited in bestowing grace upon children by the physical development of their brains? Quite the opposite. God provides grace to children, and Jesus did this on Earth using external rites of laying on of hands.

“And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all. And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands upon them.” (Mark 10:13-16).

God is not concerned with the intellectual assent of adults. In fact, as demonstrated in this passage from St. Mark, we are to do away with it, and receive the kingdom of God the way children do. Notice that the young children did not come to receive instruction or learning or to be instructed in the faith or to make a personal decision for themselves. The blessing was bestowed by Jesus apart from anything the children did or were capable of doing. I have personally witnessed little children (far below the “age of reason”) be attracted to the Eucharist. I would never deny my child the blessing of Jesus’s baptism. Jesus performs the baptism, not the child.

 

[jmcrae]

1. Show me different in the Bible.? How can they understand what is being told to them, they don’t understand the difference of yes and no, or good and bad. so how can they understand the word of God when they don’t even know what language is or that they even have hands and feet. How can one be saved if they don’t understand what it means to be saved. If they don’t under the concept of forgiveness, or what salvation is how can they be truely saved?

Jesus said, “Blessed are the children” and yet you would say that all children have to go to Hell? I don’t think so - I think it’s extremely important to baptize children as early as possible, so that they can go to Heaven and be with Jesus.

1. Little children are not infants are they, big difference.
   So are aliens and U.F.O.'s commonly reported phenomenon, little grey or green men, does that make them real.

UFOs can only be seen by people who have already read about them or heard of them. By contrast, the “yellow men” or “golden people” are being seen by little children who have not heard of such things before, and certainly never read about them, since as you’ve pointed out, they can’t read.

 

[Mickey]

Ask a infant who God is. They can’t reason or understand this because their brains are not fully developed as infants

What? You are saying that a child cannot believe in God because they cannot talk? Christ said let the little children come to me. I think that Jesus would not appreciate your “undeveloped brain” comments.

Like I said their brains are not fully developed.

What a sad, sad comment.

How do you know they can understand the Word of God.

How do you know they can’t.

Even adults don’t fully understand it fully. Do you understand if fully?

LOL! By your reasoning, no one should be baptized?

Please give me the 5 passages.

*****The Household of Cornelius, Acts 11:13–14: “Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.”
• The Household of Lydia, Acts 16:15: “And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.’ So she persuaded us.”
• The Philippian Jailor’s Household, Acts 16:33: “And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”
• The Household of Crispus, Acts 18:8: “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.”
• The Household of Stephanas, 1 Corinthians 1:16: “Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.”

Show me 1 example in the Bible where it states that “infants” were Baptized.

I just gave you five. Households include infants.

Since when does asking questions or giving my point of view considered an attack.

Your anti-apostolic attack on infant baptism is getting very old.

Your last statement could be concered a attack by saying I’m preaching falsehoods because its not the way you want me to see it.

Infant baptism is Scriptural and has been apostolically taught for 2000 years. You are preaching something different–so you are preaching a falsehood. Your attacks are getting old and tired.

 

[Mickey]

How can one be saved if they don’t understand what it means to be saved.

How dare you limit the grace of God by inventing some gnostic intellectual ascent theology. Sheesh!

 

[SonofMonica]

The practice of infant baptism is unassailably correct and remains wholly uncontradicted by any official teaching within the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church over the last 2000 years, whether by those in communion with Rome or apart from her (i.e., the Orthodox). It is not some “corrupt” teaching of the “Roman” Catholic Church.

You can learn more about this here:
catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

The only way you could object to it, is if you do not understand what baptism is, what it does, and who does it. Since you (rev kevin and others) are undoubtedly fundamentalists and/or baptists, you will remain unconvinced that infant baptism is correct, unless and until you recognize that baptism (1) is a sacrament that actually delivers grace, (2) it forgives sins, is necessary unto salvation and makes one a Christian and (3) it is Jesus who performs the baptism, not the individual. Once you understand these three things, you will understand why the Church of the Bible, the Church of old, the Church of the apostles, the Church of Christ baptizes infants.

 

[rev_kevin]

Do you really think Jesus Christ is limited in bestowing grace upon children by the physical development of their brains? Quite the opposite. God provides grace to children, and Jesus did this on Earth using external rites of laying on of hands.

“And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all. And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands upon them.” (Mark 10:13-16).

God is not concerned with the intellectual assent of adults. In fact, as demonstrated in this passage from St. Mark, we are to do away with it, and have the faith of children. I have personally witnessed little children (far below the “age of reason”) be attracted to the Eucharist. I would never deny my child the blessing of Jesus’s baptism.

I still yet to see my questions answered.

1. I think you missed what is being said. If a infants brain is not fully developed how can the understand, believe, or even reason what baptism is all about.
   All children need to feel secure, they need a loving look and gentle touch from someone who cares. They believe us because they trust us. Jesus said that people should trust in him with this kind of childlike faith.
2. Anyone who “believes” and is baptized will be saved.
   God so loved the world that he gave is only Son, he who “believes” in him will have eternal life.
   How can a infant believe?

Show me one instance in the Bible of a infant being baptized?

 

[SonofMonica]

I still yet to see my questions answered.

1. I think you missed what is being said. If a infants brain is not fully developed how can the understand, believe, or even reason what baptism is all about.

Baptism has nothing to do with understanding, belief or reason.

All children need to feel secure, they need a loving look and gentle touch from someone who cares. They believe us because they trust us. Jesus said that people should trust in him with this kind of childlike faith.

You’re ignoring the part where he specifically commanded the disciples not to forbid people from bringing infants to him so that he could impart his blessing upon them. It has nothing to do with making the children feel better. Jesus’s touch did something. The physical act imparted a blessing.

1. Anyone who “believes” and is baptized will be saved.
   God so loved the world that he gave is only Son, he who “believes” in him will have eternal life.
   How can a infant believe?

An infant cannot believe. But it can be baptized. You cannot equate the two. There are two requirements listed there in your quote, not just one. And if you can only fulfill one of the requirements (like the thief on the cross, who could only believe but not be baptized) then Christ understands because he is a merciful Father. But if all we had to do was believe, then there would be no requirement of baptism. And if you believe in him, then yes you will get baptism and have eternal life.

Show me one instance in the Bible of a infant being baptized?

The Bible is not the history of the Church. The Church began before the Bible was written, at which time it was baptizing infants and it has continued to do so today, whether it is listed in the Bible or not. Your baptism was not recorded in the Bible and neither was mine. Don’t create a strawman.

 

[jmcrae]

I still yet to see my questions answered.

1. I think you missed what is being said. If a infants brain is not fully developed how can the understand, believe, or even reason what baptism is all about.

Why does he need to? Baptism gives him grace from God for eternal salvation. It’s not about “understanding” something.

 

[rev_kevin]

Jesus said, “Blessed are the children” and yet you would say that all children have to go to Hell? I don’t think so - I think it’s extremely important to baptize children as early as possible, so that they can go to Heaven and be with Jesus.

UFOs can only be seen by people who have already read about them or heard of them. By contrast, the “yellow men” or “golden people” are being seen by little children who have not heard of such things before, and certainly never read about them, since as you’ve pointed out, they can’t read.

Being baptized is not the way to heaven. Show me where it say that being baptized it the only way to get to heaven. I am not condemning children to hell. Show me where it says if your not baptized you will not go to heaven.

Infants can’t read you said children difference.
But children have good imaginations. Some of these children have also seen the dark side and have reported it as well.

Not in all cases there have been reports from people who live outside of civilization and have said they have see them.

I said I was steping into dangerous territory. But the fact is you won’t chang my mind and I won’t change your.

 

[Dokimas]

The blood of Jesus flowing out of His side washes us from our sins, by means of the Sacraments, which convey the grace of that moment to our souls, making them clean.

But without the Sacraments to convey it, how would an event that took place on the other side of the world nearly 2,000 years ago have any effect on us whatsoever?

So it’s not trusting in the Blood of Jesus alone???​

How does the resurrection of Jesus affect us… faith.

 

[Dokimas]

Why does he need to? Baptism gives him grace from God for eternal salvation. It’s not about “understanding” something.

Are you saying God doesn’t love an infant unless it’s baptized? If that’s what you’re saying, maybe God doesn’t care about abortions?​

Beliefs have implications.

 

[Mickey]

I said I was steping into dangerous territory.

Dangerous territory for you----because you know that the Catholics and Orthodox on this forum will not sit idle as you blast infant baptism for the umpteeth time. It is Scriptural and apostolic–your false innovations will not change anything.

 

[rev_kevin]

Why does he need to? Baptism gives him grace from God for eternal salvation. It’s not about “understanding” something.

Baptism gives you grace. I thought grace was a gift from God and its up to us to accept it or not. Grace is favor, its God’s free gift and underserved love that never quits. Grace is the gift of God that comes as eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Baptism does not save a preson, but is a picture of personal salvation and a sign of obedience to God.

 

[jmcrae]

Being baptized is not the way to heaven. Show me where it say that being baptized it the only way to get to heaven. I am not condemning children to hell. Show me where it says if your not baptized you will not go to heaven.

In John 3:5.

Infants can’t read you said children difference.

I am talking about kids under the age of 24 months. They walk, they talk, but they are still in diapers - and no, they can’t read.

 

[SonofMonica]

So it’s not trusting in the Blood of Jesus alone???

No, it isn’t. Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This shows that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required. This is why we see all converts in the early Church being baptized. Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5. This is why Jesus said in Mark 16:16 that “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” And why in 1 Peter 3:21 Peter explains that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you…"

 

[SonofMonica]

Baptism gives you grace. I thought grace was a gift from God and its up to us to accept it or not. Grace is favor, its God’s free gift and underserved love that never quits. Grace is the gift of God that comes as eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Baptism does not save a preson, but is a picture of personal salvation and a sign of obedience to God.

Your last two sentences directly contradict your first four. We agree that baptism gives you grace, we agree that it is a gift from God, and we agree that we can choose to accept it or not. But how can you say God’s grace (which you’ve already admitted is transmitted through baptism) is “not a requirement for salvation” but only a “picture” of it?

Perhaps you think that Catholics believe ALL we have to do is be baptized, and we achieve salvation. But that’s not the case. Even if we’re baptized and received God’s grace as infants, we can still grow up and choose to accept or reject it. (In fact, did you know that in the sacrament of Confirmation, we have to be old enough to reason, and we have to make a public declaration of faith and of our decision to follow Christ?) But the way you’re talking, you’re just making comments without any references or really any logical tying together of concepts. You’re contradicting yourself. Why are you coming on here to spew such things, knowing that we have 2000 years of scripture and tradition and history and facts that indicate otherwise?

 

[rev_kevin]

The practice of infant baptism is unassailably correct and remains wholly uncontradicted by any official teaching within the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church over the last 2000 years, whether by those in communion with Rome or apart from her (i.e., the Orthodox). It is not some “corrupt” teaching of the “Roman” Catholic Church.

You can learn more about this here:
catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

The only way you could object to it, is if you do not understand what baptism is, what it does, and who does it. Since you (rev kevin and others) are undoubtedly fundamentalists and/or baptists, you will remain unconvinced that infant baptism is correct, unless and until you recognize that baptism (1) is a sacrament that actually delivers grace, (2) it forgives sins, is necessary unto salvation and makes one a Christian and (3) it is Jesus who performs the baptism, not the individual. Once you understand these three things, you will understand why the Church of the Bible, the Church of old, the Church of the apostles, the Church of Christ baptizes infants.

That is what your church teaches but the Bible does not say that. Besides the whole whole household thing that really don’t prove there was infant baptism give me one example of there being a infant baptism in the Bible. Give me one phrase that says they were bapitzed as a infant. Give me one example where it says they baptized adults, and infants. Please give me one example where is say and infants were baptized in the Bible and you will have changed my mind about infant baptism forever.

I guess I’m safe since I was baptized as a infant when I was catholic.