Baptists and anti-Catholicism

[DarkLight]

Both!

True. The way I’ve heard it put…most osas churches see salvation and sanctification as separate processes. The saved are saved but may be more or less sanctified. In Catholic theology the two are tied much more closely together.

 

[Nicea325]

True. The way I’ve heard it put…most osas churches see salvation and sanctification as separate processes. The saved are saved but may be more or less sanctified. In Catholic theology the two are tied much more closely together.

Exactly! What I do not understand is the belief all one needs to do is profess Jesus is Lord and Savior…and…bam! You are saved!

 

[DarkLight]

Exactly! What I do not understand is the belief all one needs to do is profess Jesus is Lord and Savior…and…bam! You are saved!

It’s a fear of works, really. They worry that adding anything more means you are not saved “by faith alone”, and thus are in some sense claiming to earn your own salvation. To them, adding anything more diminishes the sufficiency of Christ.

 

[po18guy]

Not true. We had to live with a Baptist family for several months. This family had not been happy about our conversion. My daughter visited their church once to be with another friend…the pastor was preaching on one subject, saw my daughter and suddenly changed the entire sermon to such as “not worshipping idols and pictures of dead people” etc. Yeah, daughter picked up on it fast, rolled her eyes, and tuned him out the rest of the service.

Anecdotal evidence in contra is always welcome. Sacramental, Apostolic Christians can easily see the profound misunderstandings and occasionally, just plain ignorance that is expressed toward us by many bible Christians. Yet, those who champion bible alone never seem to look into Church history, either Catholic or Orthodox - never seem to question the validity of their own opinions. Still, on average, I would say that the Orthodox are much more likely to get a pass while the Catholic Church ends up being the dartboard.

I was quite amused when I turned up a protestant article on the reformers’ (Philipp Melanchthon, among others) attempts to establish a communion with the Orthodox in opposition to the Catholic Church. After years of dialog and some 400 pages of writings, the reformers were properly rebuffed by the Orthodox as lacking the Apostolic Tradition, among other things. In the arrogance that was typical of the reformers (and seems to live on), they believed that they were the true Apostolic faith and that although the Orthodox did not have that evil pope, they were too similar to the Catholic Church. Ha!

Also interesting that the Greek Orthodox viewed the “reformation” as a German movement, which it initially and primarily was. Even as it spread, it was still a strictly European phenomenon.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Anecdotal evidence in contra is always welcome. Sacramental, Apostolic Christians can easily see the profound misunderstandings and occasionally, just plain ignorance that is expressed toward us by many bible Christians. Yet, those who champion bible alone never seem to look into Church history, either Catholic or Orthodox - never seem to question the validity of their own opinions. Still, on average, I would say that the Orthodox are much more likely to get a pass while the Catholic Church ends up being the dartboard.

I was quite amused when I turned up a protestant article on the reformers’ (Philipp Melanchthon, among others) attempts to establish a communion with the Orthodox in opposition to the Catholic Church. After years of dialog and some 400 pages of writings, the reformers were properly rebuffed by the Orthodox as lacking the Apostolic Tradition, among other things. In the arrogance that was typical of the reformers, they believed that they were the true Apostolic faith and that although the Orthodox did not have that evil pope, they were too similar to the Catholic Church. Ha!

Mainly because most people are ignorant of Orthodoxy and what it is. One neighbour recently was ripping on the RCC. I explained to him just how closely related we were and that we share many things in common. He apologized to me later and stated that he had no idea that Orthodox were much like Catholics and that his comments could be offensive to me as well.

 

[Nicea325]

It’s a fear of works, really. They worry that adding anything more means you are not saved “by faith alone”, and thus are in some sense claiming to earn your own salvation. To them, adding anything more diminishes the sufficiency of Christ.

I call it more of an “escapist” theology.

 

[DarkLight]

I call it more of an “escapist” theology.

It is worth understanding, at least. No one believes themselves to be a heretic. If we want to talk to people we need to understand why they believe as they do, and what good they intend to accomplish by it.

In this case I have found it is generally motivated by exactly what I said - the desire that Christ’s sacrifice be seen as sufficient, and that His power be over everything. To say that someone could be removed from the ranks of the saved is, to them, saying that something else is more powerful than God, or that God’s grace is not sufficient.

It is a common mistake among protestants to think Catholics do not accept sola gratia, because it is not presented in the same way. A lot of Catholics don’t understand how strange and dangerous Catholicism looks to protestants.

 

[Brendan_64]

May I ask what area you live in, what type of environment, and what type of baptist?

I work in a semi-urban area (i.e. a very large town with many of the same characteristics as a city environment) in an area of higher than average levels of social deprivation, and were the number of people of different ethnic origin outnumber the number of white British people. Definitely not a leafy, suburban, white, middle-class area.The Baptist church is affilaiated to the Baptist Union of Great Britain (BUGB). They were very nice people who were more than willing to meet with us in a spirit of mutual respect and extend their hospitality to us without condition.

 

[DarkLight]

I work in a semi-urban area (i.e. a very large town with many of the same characteristics as a city environment) in an area of higher than average levels of social deprivation, and were the number of people of different ethnic origin outnumber the number of white British people. Definitely not a leafy, suburban, white, middle-class area.The Baptist church is affilaiated to the Baptist Union of Great Britain (BUGB). They were very nice people who were more than willing to meet with us in a spirit of mutual respect and extend their hospitality to us without condition.

I’m not sure about this, but my understanding is the particularly anti-Catholic strain tends to be primarily a U.S. phenomenon. There’s a particular conservative evangelical culture that is often as much about American nostalgia as it is about Christianity.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

I work in a semi-urban area (i.e. a very large town with many of the same characteristics as a city environment) in an area of higher than average levels of social deprivation, and were the number of people of different ethnic origin outnumber the number of white British people. Definitely not a leafy, suburban, white, middle-class area.The Baptist church is affilaiated to the Baptist Union of Great Britain (BUGB). They were very nice people who were more than willing to meet with us in a spirit of mutual respect and extend their hospitality to us without condition.

Ah, you’re in the UK (didn’t catch that before). Things can be very different in regards to certain groups over here in the US. Baptists consider Catholics the “Whore of Babylon”, idol worshipers, the Eucharist is considered “Sun Worship”, etc. In fact, they will ask people if they are Christian OR Catholic…that is how bad the thinking here is.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Ah, you’re in the UK (didn’t catch that before). Things can be very different in regards to certain groups over here in the US. Baptists consider Catholics the “Whore of Babylon”, idol worshipers, the Eucharist is considered “Sun Worship”, etc. In fact, they will ask people if they are Christian OR Catholic…that is how bad the thinking here is.

I am an Anglican and it gets on my nerves to hear that- Christian or Catholic. Sorry folks the Catholic Chuch is Christian.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I’m curious - how did your wife get past these childhood beliefs?

What changed her mind?

It was a slow progression over time as it turned out she was friends with several Catholics in high school. Through them she realized that Catholics weren’t the kind of people she was used to hearing about.

The first mass she attended was with me (after we were engaged) was a Christmas mid-night mass in 1987. After mass she said that she didn’t understand what all the fuss was about… Mary wasn’t worshiped and the mass was loaded with bible verses she knew well. It was my grandmother - a Baptist convert to Catholicism who explained everything in greater detail.

My wife didn’t start to reject her Baptist faith until after we were married. It began one Saturday afternoon with my wife was helping my mother. She came across a bible my mother was given as a gift when she was a child (mom was a covert from a Methodist faith). It was a 1611 King James bible. My wife easily noticed the “extra” books.

How could this be? My wife showed her mother my mother’s bible and she explained that the Catholics probably added those extra books to some King James bibles to make it look like they belonged there. I recall my wife telling me it was the most ridiculous thing she ever heard her mother say. Anyway it was from there she began her journey to Catholicism.

I hope this made sense - I needed to paraphrase for brevity’s sake.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

I am an Anglican and it gets on my nerves to hear that- Christian or Catholic. Sorry folks the Catholic Chuch is Christian.

The irony is (and I remember this from having been Baptist) is that Jewish people are looked highly upon religiously and Catholics are practically spat upon by Baptists. I have Jewish friends, one that I look very highly upon, but not where I treat my friends unevenly based upon their faith.

 

[Holly3278]

I grew up Southern Baptist and also attended an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist ecclesial community for much of my youth before converting to Catholicism. Let me tell you right now that Southern Baptists and Independent Fundamentalist Baptists are very similar. They both believe in once saved always saved and they also both believe in the “born again” conversion experience that others are talking about where you accept Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior. The main difference is that Independent Fundamentalist Baptists often believe that only the King James Version of the Bible is reliable. This is a belief known as King James Onlyism.

So anyway, when I was growing up I didn’t really experience a whole lot of anti-Catholicism from others. I encountered some on my own though. The only real anti-Catholicism that I encountered from others was from a former step-dad of mine who sincerely believed that Catholics worship Mary but he was not Baptist. He was a Pentecostal.

I did see some stuff in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist ecclesial community about Catholicism though and from what I can recall it basically said that some Catholics are saved while others are not. I think there was probably also an accusation or two of idolatry because of our practice of venerating the saints.

 

[betsybug354]

The irony is (and I remember this from having been Baptist) is that Jewish people are looked highly upon religiously and Catholics are practically spat upon by Baptists. I have Jewish friends, one that I look very highly upon, but not where I treat my friends unevenly based upon their faith.

Exactly what I had been thinking regarding some of the more fundamentalist churches. Their dispensationalist view of scripture causes them to put Jewish people on a pedestal lest they incur God’s wrath (“I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee”). Those tend to be the same folks who walk around with a Bible in one hand and today’s newspaper in the other, trying to prove that the pre-trib rapture is imminent.

 

[Nicea325]

It is worth understanding, at least. No one believes themselves to be a heretic. If we want to talk to people we need to understand why they believe as they do, and what good they intend to accomplish by it.

In this case I have found it is generally motivated by exactly what I said - the desire that Christ’s sacrifice be seen as sufficient, and that His power be over everything. To say that someone could be removed from the ranks of the saved is, to them, saying that something else is more powerful than God, or that God’s grace is not sufficient.It is a common mistake among protestants to think Catholics do not accept sola gratia, because it is not presented in the same way. A lot of Catholics don’t understand how strange and dangerous Catholicism looks to protestants.

Indeed. I have heard the bolded words used against Purgatory.

 

[Kliska]

Indeed. I have heard the bolded words used against Purgatory.

Yes, because protestants such as I believe that to say that we need to be purged and/or punished for our sin is to give Jesus’ life, and death/sacrifice short shrift. We believe His blood not only purges us completely, but also that He suffered penalty/punishment for us as well. However, we actually all agree that our works will be tried with fire, and some will be burned away.

I do think there is some leeway and many would agree with CS Lewis’ description of “Purgation” whether it takes place in an instant, or over long periods of time.

 

[Brendan_64]

Exactly what I had been thinking regarding some of the more fundamentalist churches. Their dispensationalist view of scripture causes them to put Jewish people on a pedestal lest they incur God’s wrath (“I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee”).

Ironic that such people fail to realise that the Church is the new Israel, the Church is the new Zion, the Church is the new Jerusalem. The Israel of the New Testament is not the Jewish nation, and it is not the Jewish people, the Israel of the New Testament is the Church. For people who read their Bible a lot, they fail to see what St Paul was talking about in Romans 11. The Church contains the People of God, we have our roots in Abraham, we are the people of Abraham, we are Israel.

 

[TRH1292]

Purgatory makes no sense in Protestantism because Salvation is a legal/forensic action, not a transformation of the person through the grace of God.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, because protestants such as I believe that to say that we need to be purged and/or punished for our sin is to give Jesus’ life, and death/sacrifice short shrift. We believe His blood not only purges us completely, but also that He suffered penalty/punishment for us as well. However, we actually all agree that our works will be tried with fire, and some will be burned away.

I do think there is some leeway and many would agree with CS Lewis’ description of “Purgation” whether it takes place in an instant, or over long periods of time.

It does not short change Christ at all. it is not a denial of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27).