Baptists and Mary

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mlchance:

As my students would say: Huh?

And the students of Jesus ( disciples ) would say: Halleluia!

mlchance:

Obviously, Jesus didn’t mean what you think he means. Elijah ascended to Heaven.

These observations aside, you’re off the point. Ron (who apparently thinks he is the final arbiter of what is and is not acceptable doctrine) said that no early Church writer equated the woman described in Revelation 12 with Mary. I merely pointed out that he was wrong about this.

– Mark L. Chance.

If Elijah ascended to Heaven, this doesn’t change anything in what Jesus said about His descending from Heaven. For you know that no one descended from Heaven other than Jesus! So Mary didn’t descend from Heaven. Therefore she is not the Ark of the Covenant.
This is what I wanted to say, but you understood me according to your prejudice.

As for your problem with Ron, I know what is happening. But my reply was to tell you both that the Fathers are not the Authority, but the Scripture.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[rarndt01]

MChance

I am STILL waiting for you to produce just one quote from any church father who quotes one of the apostles as saying Mary is our Queen in heaven who rules in heaven alongside the Triune God. What the apostles said and wrote was TRUE church tradition and not what was said by whoever four centuries later. So put up or shut up braggart.

Ron from Ohio

 

[rarndt01]

MrS4ntA

You have given me your prayer and who you pray to, now I shall give you my prayer and who I pray to. Notice the difference in WHAT IS SAID.

Hail, Holy King,

Lord of Mercy
Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy towards us.
And after this – our exile –
show unto us thy word and guide us by thy spirit,
Jesus,
O clement, o loving, o sweet blessed Savior…

Help of Christians, pray for us…
Lord of the Apostles, pray for us…
Lord of all Saints, pray for us…
The second Adam conceived without Original Sin, pray for us…
Blessed Son of God, assumed into Heaven, pray for us…
Lord who hears all prayers, pray for us…
Creator of Angels, pray for us…
Our Mediater and High Priest, pray for us…
Our living Word of truth, pray for us…
Blessed Son of God, pray for us…

Ron from Ohio.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Sarah Jane:

Mary is the Father’s perfect masterpiece HUMAN.

By the grace of God.

Both statements are without merit or evidence.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Therefore she is not the Ark of the Covenant.

“You [Mary] are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” (Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 [ante AD 373])

 

[Sarah_Jane]

rarndt01:

MrS4ntA

You have given me your prayer and who you pray to, now I shall give you my prayer and who I pray to. Notice the difference in WHAT IS SAID.

Hail, Holy King,

Lord of Mercy
Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy towards us.
And after this – our exile –
show unto us thy word and guide us by thy spirit,
Jesus,
O clement, o loving, o sweet blessed Savior…

Help of Christians, pray for us…
Lord of the Apostles, pray for us…
Lord of all Saints, pray for us…
The second Adam conceived without Original Sin, pray for us…
Blessed Son of God, assumed into Heaven, pray for us…
Lord who hears all prayers, pray for us…
Creator of Angels, pray for us…
Our Mediater and High Priest, pray for us…
Our living Word of truth, pray for us…
Blessed Son of God, pray for us…

Ron from Ohio.

You think that the saints cannot pray for us?

 

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

You have a problem with the teachings. Mary was the product of the Immaculate Conception…which means she was conceived without sin. She had no original sin when she came to this earth, yet she still retained free will. She was the same as Eve…and she has even been referred to as the 2nd Eve…the only difference is that our Blessed Mother did not give in to sin…she remained true to God and her integrity is in tact. To dispute this is not possible.

Of course I have a problem with the teachings. I do not accept the Marian dogmas. Just because the church claims she had no original sin and was the second Eve doesn’t make it so. I do not believe in your apostolic traditions.

 

[ahimsaman72]

RMP:
Religion is alot easier if you just let the Catholic church do all the interpreting for you. After all, The church is infallable.
This is what I call laity laziness. The refusal to search the truth out for yourself but let someone else define your beliefs and ideas. That’s partly why we have the protestant churches today. We all have a right and duty to search and define our beliefs.

 

[rarndt01]

Sarah Jane

What church authority do you have for saying Mary is the ark of the covenant? Our church tradition is based on what the apostles wrote or said and PASSED ON to the early church. Name one church father who quotes one of the apostles as saying Mary is the ark of the new covenant. You quote things from centuries later that no apostle ever said or wrote centuries earlier. That is your error.

Ron from Ohio

 

[ahimsaman72]

RMP:
The reason there is limited historical writings about Mary in the first few centuries is because the church was still trying to define doctrines about GOD (good vs evil GOD, who he is, ect) and CHRIST (is he human, is he divine, his natures, ect). That is what the Nicene creed is all about. Try reading to creed sometime. After that was achieved, doctrines on Mary began to be focussed on by the Catholic church.

You are wrong, GOD did actually need MARY. HE needed it so bad HE even asked for it!!

GOD respects freedom of religion, he respects our free will. That is why he gave free will to us. We can freely choose to reject HIM. MARY freely chose to ACCEPT him. “FIAT”.
GOD did not force MARY to be cooperative to his demands. MARY accepted cooperation with HIS will.
You cannot force someone to love you…
MARY was the world’s FIRST love.

For those of us who believe in Calvinism, this will not do. :nope:
God doesn’t need your help or anyone else’s. Scripture is full of instances where God is described as causing good things or bad things to happen on the earth. He is also described as hardening a person’s heart.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mrS4ntA:

::

      Hail, Holy Queen,

Mother of Mercy
Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy towards us.
And after this – our exile –
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus,
O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary…

Help of Christians, pray for us…
Queen of Apostles, pray for us…
Queen of all Saints, pray for us…
Queen conceived without Original Sin, pray for us…
Queen assumed into Heaven, pray for us…
Queen of the most holy rosary, pray for us…
Queen of Angels, pray for us…
Mediatrix of all graces, pray for us…
Exterminatrix of heresies, pray for us…
Our Lady of Mt Carmel, pray for us…

She is called Advocate above (capital A). I John 2:1 states, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” To equate this advocacy to Mary is contrary to Scripture.

I would also like to know how she can be Queen of the Apostles, all saints, angels.

I would also like to know how she can be “mediatrix of all graces”. She cannot be so. She is not divine. She cannot be this mediatrix.

This is similar to paganism - it makes her a goddess along with her DIVINE son, Jesus. It simply cannot be true. Why isn’t there a long, flowing prayer like this for the Saviour of the world? You have the Holy Rosary and Hail, Holy Queen, but for Jesus Christ, Son of God you have only the simple Jesus prayer.

 

[rarndt01]

Because there is a Marian cult within the Catholic faith that gives more devotion to Mary than to our Lord and Savior in their life and prayers. It is as simple as that.
Ron from Ohio

 

[hlgomez]

I am STILL waiting for you to produce just one quote from any church father who quotes one of the apostles as saying Mary is our Queen in heaven who rules in heaven alongside the Triune God. What the apostles said and wrote was TRUE church tradition and not what was said by whoever four centuries later. So put up or shut up braggart.

Ron from Ohio

Ron,

The quenship of Mary in the early Church wasn’t a big issue that time. In the development of doctrine there is a “heararchy of truth.” The Early Church has yet to battle ahead the heresies that will come and attack the faithful particularly on the doctrine of the Trinity, and so many issues involving Christ. After all these doctrines were hammered out in the Councils that followed each heresy, the Marian doctrine followed. Marian doctrine is subordinate in its essence to the Trinitarian doctrines, but as well is truth that is to be believed by the faithful.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Because there is a Marian cult within the Catholic faith that gives more devotion to Mary than to our Lord and Savior in their life and prayers. It is as simple as that.

Ron from Ohio

Ron,

Authentic Marian devotion always always leads to Christ.

If you love your mom dearly and we are best friends, will you envy if I say I love your mom to the point that I call her as my “mother” too?

Pio

 

[rarndt01]

You must love God with ALL your heart, soul and mind. That means, you must love God more than anyone in heaven. If you show devotion to anyone in heaven beside God alone, you are guilty of idolatry and that is a mortal sin, which will damn your soul to hell forever.

                                             Ron from Ohio

 

[1962Missal]

rarndt01:

You must love God with ALL your heart, soul and mind. That means, you must love God more than anyone in heaven. If you show devotion to anyone in heaven beside God alone, you are guilty of idolatry and that is a mortal sin, which will damn your soul to hell forever.

                                             Ron from Ohio

34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Funny, Jesus contradicts you. If we imitate Christ, then we should love HIs mother as he loves her.

Justin

 

[hlgomez]

You must love God with ALL your heart, soul and mind. That means, you must love God more than anyone in heaven. If you show devotion to anyone in heaven beside God alone, you are guilty of idolatry and that is a mortal sin, which will damn your soul to hell forever.

Ron from Ohio

That means to worship God and Him alone shall you serve. But we don’t worship Mary. That’s the BIG misconception among non-Catholics.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

She is called Advocate above (capital A). I John 2:1 states, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” To equate this advocacy to Mary is contrary to Scripture.

What is the meaning of advocate? Jesus is the only advocate to the Father for salvation. But Mary is our advocate to her Son for prayers and intercessions. Do you see the difference?

Here is a further explanation that is similar to your argument.

---

SO IF JESUS IS THE ONE MEDIATOR, WHY PRAY TO MARY?
As in other cases, Protestant fundamentalists often tend to quote just one verse completely out of context. So let’s look at the whole passage.

“I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.”
1Timothy 2:1-5

From this **full **text of the passage we can see three important things:

1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and **intercede with God **for those in authority and for other third parties.

2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and** to** God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.

3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus’s unique mediation is a different mediation -** the mediation of our salvation.**

Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.

Pio

 

[ahimsaman72]

hlgomez:

What is the meaning of advocate? Jesus is the only advocate to the Father for salvation. But Mary is our advocate to her Son for prayers and intercessions. Do you see the difference?

Pio

So, now she is simply an advocate (one of many) to her Son for prayers and intercessions? So, then why isn’t every other saintly woman given the same respect? I brought this concept up earlier and no one has answered it yet. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[hlgomez]

Sarah Jane

What church authority do you have for saying Mary is the ark of the covenant? Our church tradition is based on what the apostles wrote or said and PASSED ON to the early church. Name one church father who quotes one of the apostles as saying Mary is the ark of the new covenant. You quote things from centuries later that no apostle ever said or wrote centuries earlier. That is your error.

Ron from Ohio

Let me answer this for Sarah, if you would mind.

As Catholics, we believe in the authority of the Church, the Pope and the Magisterium. I will not believe in the Gospels unless moved by the authority of the Catholic Church (St. Augustine).

The OT is a “prefigurement” of the NT. That’s why in that context, all that is written in the Old Testament is revealed to it’s full meaning and fulfillment in the New Testament. Oh, how wonderful it is when we are able to understand the revelations of God that was hidden in the Old Testament!

There is so much to look at and study in the OT so we can better understand God’s wonderful plan of salvation. As regards Mary being the Ark of the Covenant, the OT should be read typologically to better understand it. Here’s the Catholic explanation:

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses,** Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant. **

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - **How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? **It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - **the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. **

Pio