Baptists and Mary

[ConvertFromSBC]

kramerbaby:

Why do Baptists believe that mary was not sinless? I was talking witha Baptist friend of minew last night and we got talking about Mary. How do I explain to her that Mary WAS sinless, and where it says so in the Bible? Thanks for your help!

You don’t find this teaching anywhere in the Bible, at least not clearly spelled out. This is not even something that the early church taught at first if I am not mistaken. As far as I understand it this was a concept the church discerned over time. It is definitely NOT something that you would come up with all on your own.

 

[ConvertFromSBC]

rarndt01:

Well, Jesus Christ is my ark and my salvation, not Mary. How does that grab you? You may glorify Mary a million times and she will never fill the role of Jesus Christ as mediator and King of heaven. You may recite the rosary and pray the Marian prayers til the cows come home, but she cannot save you. Only Jesus can.

If the real Mary could come down from heaven she would tear down the graven images made of her, in the churches that are used to bow before her, and given worship to her, rather than to her beloeved son. She would tell you, why are you praying to me? Pray to my son, for he died for you and instructed you to come to him when your soul is burdened, not I.

Yes, that’s what the real Mary would say if she were able to come back down to earth.

Ron from Ohio

The problem is that you are misunderstanding everything that Catholics believe. No Catholic worships Mary or prays to Mary. No Catholic makes graven images of Mary and no one believes they can be saved by Mary. If any Catholic does believe any of these things then you are right they are guilty.

 

[ConvertFromSBC]

rarndt01:

Christ does not share his rulership, nor does he share his salvic position. Why? Because it was Christ ALONE who died for our sins. It is he ALONE who is our high priest and advocate. Of course the saints in heaven pray for us, but they IN THEMSELVES have no power to grant forgiveness of sins or grant us eternal life. Only God can and he has shown this grace through Christ alone.

Ron from Ohio

All of this is what the Catholic Church teaches. There is not one single thing that you said that is not stated explicitly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You may have to accept the fact that no one is disagreeing with you on this.

 

[ConvertFromSBC]

rarndt01:

Sarah Jane

Let me ask you this. Is Christ alone sufficient enough to come to him for all your needs? What would you ask of Mary, to ask Jesus, that you couldn’t come to Jesus directly and ask for? Jesus said, “Come UNTO ME, all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your soul rest”. He said, “I am the good SHEPHERD and I know my sheep and they know me.” Jesus further said, " I am the way, the truth and the life, he that comes TO me will never die, but has ETERNAL LIFE. for he has passed from death to life." So what is lacking in Jesus, that you must find it necessary to ask Mary, to ask Jesus for?

Ron from Ohio

Agreed. However do you ask your friends or pastor to pray for you? Why if Jesus is sufficient. You will be hard pressed to find any church no matter what denomination that does not take prayer requests Interestingly enough you already stated that you believe in the communion of the saints. That is already a big deal b/c many don’t. If you already believe in the communion of the saints then you should see no difference in asking one of your friends in heaven to pray for you or your pastor.

 

[ConvertFromSBC]

rarndt01:

God didn’t ask Mary, he TOLD HER.

Ron,

It is a fundamental belief that we all have free will. God doesn’t tell us to do anything. He asks us to follow Him and we either obey or we don’t. Think back to Adam and Eve. All of us are given a choice, including Mary.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

It would be interesting to know what these Catholic deniers of Marian teachings will on Dec. 8th – a day of obligation for the feast of the Immaculate Conception. Will they just not go? Hide in the coat room? Make lip-fart noises during the homily or when Rev. 12 is read? How do you stay in a church you believe is lying to you?

Scott

 

[hlgomez]

So, now she is simply an advocate (one of many) to her Son for prayers and intercessions? So, then why isn’t every other saintly woman given the same respect? I brought this concept up earlier and no one has answered it yet. You can’t have it both ways.

ahimsaman72,

Of course we honor saintly women! I bet you, it’s only the Catholic Church that has given women the very full meaning of who they are, not the distortions and lies of this feminist world! It is in the Catholic Church that you can find numerous women elevated to sainthood! It is only in the Catholic Church that we asks intercessions of Saints! Where else can you find it? However, Scripture itself doesn’t lie–it is being fulfilled! “All generations shall call me blessed!” Mary is-----the Mother of God–and all generation shall call her 'Blessed"! Oh, Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus! All women but her do not have this awesome gift from God! This is the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE. Halleluiah!

Pio

 

[rarndt01]

hlgomez

It is sad that you don’t give the same praise and honor to Jesus hlgomez. Someday, when you stand before Jesus, he will say I never knew you.
Ron from Ohio

 

[bbas_64]

Scott Waddell:

It would be interesting to know what these Catholic deniers of Marian teachings will on Dec. 8th – a day of obligation for the feast of the Immaculate Conception. Will they just not go? Hide in the coat room? Make lip-fart noises during the homily or when Rev. 12 is read? How do you stay in a church you believe is lying to you?

Scott

Good Day, Scott

I know I know, they will breakout thier greek NT and read the words in context and use consturction and meanings of words and say wow I must do this more often . As far as lying that seems kind of strong, poeple can be mistaken and be forgiven in so much that it is not held against them.

Who knows may be they have Hippolytus written in the margin of the Greek.

“By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the ‘moon under her feet’ he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, ‘upon her head a crown of twelve stars,’ refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, ‘she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered,’ mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. ‘And she brought forth,’ he says, ‘a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;’ by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, ‘her child was caught up unto God and to His throne,’ signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.’ ‘And the dragon,’ he says, ‘saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.’ That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: ‘And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.’” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[hlgomez]

It is sad that you don’t give the same praise and honor to Jesus hlgomez. Someday, when you stand before Jesus, he will say I never knew you.

Ron,

You must have misunderstood us greatly. God gives us the commandment to love. We are all one family with the saints. All glory and honor and praise and thanksgiving belongs to God alone, AMEN. By honoring His saints and venerating them gives more glory to God. We are all His handiwork.

The angel Gabriel sets us an example when he declared unto Mary and said, “Hail, full of grace!” Was God all of the sudden became sad because His messenger said this? Did the angel worship Mary with the worship due to God? No. But there is no other account in the Bible that greatly bestows honor to a human being coming from God’s angels.

In the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we worship the Lord in the Eucharist. He is there present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. There is no other place that we can give the highest form of worship to our God. There we offer “thanksgiving” thru the “breaking of the bread.” God Himself is present to us, the fulfillment of His being Emmanuel–God is with us. He is not just some illusionary image. He is there in the humble appearance of bread and wine turned into His Real Body and Blood. And when we receive Him, how happy our souls are and how we exult with joy of thanksgiving–giving honor and praise to our God who is made present to us.

May God enlighten you with our Catholic Faith.

“Where there is Jesus Christ, there is the Catholic Church.” (St. Ignatius, 2nd Century AD)

Pio

 

[Sarah_Jane]

bbas 64:

Good Day, Scott

I know I know, they will breakout thier greek NT and read the words in context and use consturction and meanings of words and say wow I must do this more often . As far as lying that seems kind of strong, poeple can be mistaken and be forgiven in so much that it is not held against them.

Who knows may be they have Hippolytus written in the margin of the Greek.

“By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the ‘moon under her feet’ he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, ‘upon her head a crown of twelve stars,’ refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, ‘she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered,’ mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. ‘And she brought forth,’ he says, ‘a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;’ by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, ‘her child was caught up unto God and to His throne,’ signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.’ ‘And the dragon,’ he says, ‘saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.’ That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: ‘And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.’” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Peace to u,

Bill

Like St.Ambrose taught, Mary is a type of the Church. She brought first the Christ to the world and the Church continues to bringing the Christ to the world.

 

[mlchance]

rarndt01:

It is sad that you don’t give the same praise and honor to Jesus hlgomez. Someday, when you stand before Jesus, he will say I never knew you.

So, not only are you somehow the one, true, and infallible source of Church doctrine, but now you have the authority to put words into the mouth of the Son of God.

Amazing.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Mamamull]

MichaelTDoyle:

More from that link. Looks like my comment is on the mark with this site

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

We also know that thousands of human beings are sinless and incapable of sin – those who are profoundly brain damaged (cerebral palsy is one example than can incapacitate a person) those with congenital brain anamolies and many of the people who defy a diagnosis who fall under the dx of autism or PDD. A person must have the ability to reason to be sinful.

Many babies who are baptized and die from SIDS or some other tragedy are also sinless. (I don’t think we get to list the millions of aborted babies, but that is a shame because they certainly are without sin.)

So, It is hard to get a Baptist to see why God would create a perfect being in which to create the incarnation of the word, but I think Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen has a lot of references to the Arc of the Covenant and how Mary became the new arc of the new covenant. I am not the scholar Mr. Hahn is so you would probably do well to have someone give you the scritpural basis of his theory.

 

[mrS4ntA]

rarndt01:

MrS4ntA

You have given me your prayer and who you pray to, now I shall give you my prayer and who I pray to. Notice the difference in WHAT IS SAID.

Hail, Holy King,

Lord of Mercy
Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy towards us.
And after this – our exile –
show unto us thy word and guide us by thy spirit,
Jesus,
O clement, o loving, o sweet blessed Savior…

Help of Christians, pray for us…
Lord of the Apostles, pray for us…
Lord of all Saints, pray for us…
The second Adam conceived without Original Sin, pray for us…
Blessed Son of God, assumed into Heaven, pray for us…
Lord who hears all prayers, pray for us…
Creator of Angels, pray for us…
Our Mediater and High Priest, pray for us…
Our living Word of truth, pray for us…
Blessed Son of God, pray for us…

Ron from Ohio.

“Pray for us?” Jesus is not a saint. Here’s better:

Jesus, Son of the living God, have mercy on us.
Jesus, splendor of the Father, have mercy on us.
Jesus, brightness of eternal light, have mercy on us.
Jesus, king of glory, have mercy on us.
Jesus, the sun of justice, have mercy on us.
Jesus, son of the Virgin Mary, have mercy on us.
Jesus, amiable, have mercy on us.
Jesus, admirable, have mercy on us.
Jesus, the powerful God, have mercy on us.
Jesus, father of the world to come, have mercy on us.
Jesus, crown of all saints, have mercy on us.

You use “pray for us” only after invoking saints’ names. See the difference? “have mercy on us” for the Divinity. This is, like, basic Catholic prayer…

 

[tralon]

Who needs repetition. Just talk to Jesus.

 

[davidv]

tralon:

Who needs repetition. Just talk to Jesus.

You do. Try not breathing!!

 

[tralon]

Hey, that’s a cool jab bro. Hey how many times do you got to keep repeating the same prayers to Mary anyway? I guess her hearing aid battery is dead.

 

[John_Tino]

Hello John Tino here for the first time:
In the book of Luke there was a prophecy. The said:
" For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call
me blessed." There is only one Church in history that
has fulfilled this prophecy and it is the Holy Catholic Church. For she alone has always called the Blessed Virgin Mary, BLESSED

 

[mrS4ntA]

tralon:

Hey, that’s a cool jab bro. Hey how many times do you got to keep repeating the same prayers to Mary anyway? I guess her hearing aid battery is dead.

Rite… oke…
let’s just say to all newlyweds it’s futile to keep repeating “I love you”, their batteries will soon be dead anyway…

btw… see the songs and prayers in Psalm. If that is not repetition, I don’t know what is!

 

[MariaG]

Who needs repetition?

I don’t know if He needs it, but Jesus said the same prayer 3 times (Mt26:44) and the angels repeat day and night over and over in heaven Holy, Holy… Rev 4:8. If it is good enough for Jesus on earth and God in heaven it is good enough for me.

God Bless,
Maria