Baptists vs. Catholicism

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Catholics are not fans of Martin Luther is indicative of hatred? I hold a low opinion of Luther’s teachings and some of his actions and remarks, but I, for one have never developed a hatred for the guy.

Forget that, the only real reformation that is happening in the Catholic Church is the conversion of many from outside the church and the feeding frenzy of Catholics who are reading the Word of God and learning their faith. Praise GOD for that! 😃

:
Catholics clearly realize M.L. was a racist bigot … from the book he wrote late in life on the Jews. I doubt many Protestants are aware of this bizarre transformation that came over Luther late in his life.

Still, we should not be tempted to hate the guy. He was clearly troubled by events within HIS Catholic Church, but he probably suffered from a Narcissistic personality disorder. History is an amazing read ! Clearly hand of God is in control of the big picture of historical events. Would the Catholic church be where it is today …except for Luther’s actions ? Can we not see even alittle bit of good that came from Martin’s actions ?

God has used corrupt individuals thurout history to accomplish his purposes. The wicked in this world have & will continue to be the stepping stone for Christ.

Regarding reformation within the Church … it is alive and current Popes are inspiring new life to the laity.

Should we kiss the Pope’s feet ? His hands and face … yes. I don’t think the recent popes would desire their feet kissed. I do know it is amazing and very spiritual to watch a priest wash the feet of the laity at Easter. Since Christ was willing to wash our feet … we must also be willing to wash each others ?

Pastor Jim … we love you. What Christ has blessed with his H.S. … we salute 👍
 
Wait a minute! How do you figure? That Catholics are not fans of Martin Luther is indicative of hatred? I hold a low opinion of Luther’s teachings and some of his actions and remarks, but I, for one have never developed a hatred for the guy.
Especially considering many Catholic hymnbooks contain ‘A Mighty Fortress is our God’. 😉
 
Its Martin Luther hatred. Any Protestant is viewed thru that ancient lens. Would seem that an atheist gets more respect from them.

Until Catholics learn to turn the other cheek and forgive the sins of the past … they will never convince many Protestants that they have the only true faith.

Perhaps the next Reformation will happen within the Catholic Church, lets pray it happens soon !
Well, I can tell you this: This is a Catholic forum, and as you can see, you are free to post your views. However, I have joined many protestant forums and was subjected to an onslaught of the foulest insults, followed by being banned for posting my “Catholic” beliefs.

Many Protestants call Catholics Pagans, idolators, Mariolators, papists, pope worshippers, antichrist, “whore of Babylon”… …blah blah blah. So, I think you’re way off track: The bulk of “hate” comes towards Catholics from the Fundies.
 
Well, I can tell you this: This is a Catholic forum, and as you can see, you are free to post your views. However, I have joined many protestant forums and was subjected to an onslaught of the foulest insults, followed by being banned for posting my “Catholic” beliefs.

Many Protestants call Catholics Pagans, idolators, Mariolators, papists, pope worshippers, antichrist, “whore of Babylon”… …blah blah blah. So, I think you’re way off track: The bulk of “hate” comes towards Catholics from the Fundies.
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
 
Many Protestants call Catholics Pagans, idolators, Mariolators, papists, pope worshippers, antichrist, “whore of Babylon”… …blah blah blah. So, I think you’re way off track: The bulk of “hate” comes towards Catholics from the Fundies.
Did I call you any of those things?
 
Did I call you any of those things?
I don’t know: Do you recognize me from any other forum? I usually go by “Catholic Crusader” in protestant forums, most of which have banned me simply for stating my beliefs. Ring a bell?
 
I don’t know: Do you recognize me from any other forum? I usually go by “Catholic Crusader” in protestant forums, most of which have banned me simply for stating my beliefs. Ring a bell?
No. And no, I did not call anyone here those names so you have no excuse to say the things you’ve said to me.
 
Actually, I’ve cited many.
Well then PJ, let me cite many that show solid evidence of what the apostolic church taught for 1600 years before Baptists started misquoting scripture out of context and without proper regard to semantics. Just so you know, The Bible is 100% Catholic and The Catholic Church (and Orthodox) is the only apostolic church on the planet and it is the only 100% biblical church in existence. The Catholic Church authorized itself to publish the Bible - it was not Luther nor was it King James. You will find no authorization in the bible to publish the bible - this was a purely Catholic Church initiative.

The bottom line is Sola Fide is an utterly a false doctrine of man. This is the filter that prevents you from reading scripture with the clarity of The Spirit and which caused you to cherry pick verses that support your own human traditional view. The most indicting case against the Protestant error of imputation is found in the Greek word ‘logizomai’. In the interest of saving time I will borrow from a fellow apologetics works (CatholicDudes) to show you how wrong you are in your interpretation of scripture and in your selection of verses which conspicuously absent itself from the verses which prove your view is utterly wrong.

To wit:

Supposing what you are not Supposed to - Imputation said:
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=117564
The concept of ‘imputation’ is of central importance to the classical Protestant dogma of Justification by Faith Alone.

Protestants teach that justification is a declaration of righteousness. They teach that since fallen man is not righteous the only way God can declare them righteous is if the Righteousness of Another (Christ) is imputed to their unrighteous account. When God looks at the sinner He sees Christ’s Righteousness and declares that sinner righteous (though they remain unrighteous before and during the declaration of righteousness). Christ’s Righteousness is said to be imputed/reckoned/counted/etc to the sinner.

Catholics flatly disagree with this and say God cannot and will not declare someone other that what they really are.

NOW, the question is whether or not Scripture teaches the concept of imputing. If it does not, then Sola Fide is clearly false.

The most important word under consideration is the Greek word ‘logizomai’. It is TRANSLATED into ENGLISH into various (but usually equivalent) terms such as imputed, reckoned, credited, counted, etc.
The word appears in the ever important Genesis 15:6,
Abraham believed God, and it [faith] was credited to him as righteousness.

Protestants contend that this means a righteousness external to Abraham was imputed to him. Catholics say God credited the act of faith as evidence of Abraham’s actual righteousness.

Since it does no good to merely assert a definition, we must see how logizomai is used in the New Testament. For this thread we will look simply at the Book of Romans where logizomai is used 19 times. Of those 19 times, 11 occur in Romans 4, where the theme of imputed righteousness is repeated multiple times. I consider that we should look at how logizomai is used in the remaining 8 occurrences in Romans and see what we find.

The following are the 8 other occurrences of logizomai (highlighted in red) appear in Romans:

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Rom 2:26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Rom 8:36 Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Going through each of these passages I see the following “categories” appear:
  1. Romans 3:28, 6:11, 8:18, 9:8. In each of these passages what is being “logizomai” is in reference to what is a fact, the “account” itself is being looked at and not what is charged to an account from an external account. Verse 3:28 should be straight forward, Paul “maintains” that a man is justified by faith apart from works, and this is a factual statement because works of the law truly dont save. Thus “logizomai” in this situation means to come to the conclusion something is true that is inherently true. In 6:11 they are to “consider” themself dead to sin because they are in fact dead to sin. Same goes for 8:18, Paul “considers” the present sufferings cannot be compared to Heaven, and this is a fact because they cannot be compared. In Rom 9:8 the children of the promise are “regarded” as the descendants because they really are spiritual children of God which is what makes you a descendant.
    In each of these there is no imputing something from one account to another external account (or vice versa) but instead the actual status of the person or object is being rightly considered.
  2. Romans 2:3, 8:36 and 14:14. In 2:3 the man who “supposes” he will escape judgment though applying a double standard is obviously deceiving himself. Thus to “logizomai” something that is not true, at least when it comes to judgment, is condemned. In 8:36 these people are “considered” as sheep to be slaughtered, but the people doing the “considering” here are enemies attacking God’s people. To “consider” an innocent person to be a sheep to be slaughtered is a sin. In 14:14 Paul is teaching nothing is unclean in itself, thus a brother who has trouble with food actually has a issue with his conscience and judgment and not the objective truth of the situation. Certainly God does not have trouble discerning objective truth.
    In these examples we see to ‘logozomai’ something contrary to the truth of the situation makes that person anywhere from corrupt to confused to just plain wicked.
  3. Romans 2:26. This one is open for some debate, so I decided to add some context:
    25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is **not circumcised physically **and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.
CONTINUED

Out of text space - continuing on next post

JAMES
 
CONTINUATION OF PRIOR POST

Supposing what you are not Supposed to - Imputation said:
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=117564
Plainly, if a uncircumcised person keeps the law they will be regarded by God as though circumcised. Outwardly, they are considered what they are not physically. However, the context is very clear being a “real Jew” is a matter of “circumcision of the heart,” and this is what brings out God’s praises, not the outward appearance. This verse can clearly be taken both ways.

Taking the evidence we just considered above, as it stands, I would say just looking how Romans uses logizomai some facts emerge:
(1) Logizomai does not always mean imputing a quality the object does not intrinsically hold, in fact none of the above passages examined would clearly support such a definition.
(2)Further, there are undeniable references where logizomai means to consider what is actually in the “account”, recognizing the inherent truth of something.
(3)To “logizomai” something that is not true, at least in some cases, is shown to be an erroneous (even wicked) judgment by the one reckoning.
(4) Of all the number of times logizomai is used, it rarely, if ever (2:26), means lawfully imputing a status which the object doesn’t really have.

With this in mind, I would say these two facts are how the usage of logizomai in Romans 4 should be approached and analyzed. We should not only allow “logizomai” to mean to recognize the inherent truth, but we should actually give this understanding preference.** We should let the Bible speak**.

The first time logizomai appears in Romans 4 is in verse 3, “Abraham believed God, and it [faith] was credited to him as righteousness.” Protestants interpret this as follows: Abraham’s faith was the instrument by which Christ’s (righteous) account was credited to Abraham’s (unrighteous) account. However, using the above principles, using the Bible as our guide, I would say the interpretation should look like this: Abraham’s faith was considered by God to be proof of (Abraham’s) actual righteousness.

Given this, the foundation for the Protestant understanding of justification is quite simply and flatly not only unBiblical, but contra-Biblical.

Any questions?

If you want to learn the truth and start preaching an honest gospel you need to become Catholic and get properly Catechised. Jesus only authorized the apostles and they their successors to teach the word of God. So, I suggest you contact your nearest Catholic Church and ask them when you can talk to a priest about becoming a Catholic and starting the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA)

God Bless,
James
 
Just remember that EVERY thing the Catholic Church does is because that is what Jesus did, what Jesus taught, and what Jesus commanded.

We are suppose to act and do what ever Jesus would of done.

WWJD??

Everything from the Eucharist, Communion with the Saints, our understanding of salvation, to understanding sufferings and Chastity.

Always focus and relate everything we do and practice to that of what our Lord did.
 
No. And no, I did not call anyone here those names so you have no excuse to say the things you’ve said to me.
My post was a response to a post by BRB. I didn’t say anything to you. What I said was my true experience at protestant forums. I don’t even know who you are.
 
Well, I can tell you this: This is a Catholic forum, and as you can see, you are free to post your views. However, I have joined many protestant forums and was subjected to an onslaught of the foulest insults, followed by being banned for posting my “Catholic” beliefs.

Many Protestants call Catholics Pagans, idolators, Mariolators, papists, pope worshippers, antichrist, “whore of Babylon”… …blah blah blah. So, I think you’re way off track: The bulk of “hate” comes towards Catholics from the Fundies.
If this be true [and it probably is] … its imperative we set higher standards over here.
 
The Catholic Church (and Orthodox) is the only apostolic church on the planet and it is the only 100% biblical church in existence.
I don’t believe that’s true. I don’t believe that it’s all that Biblical and I don’t believe that Protestant and Baptist churches are Unbiblical.
The bottom line is Sola Fide is an utterly a false doctrine of man.
I disagree. The Bible teaches it very clearly.
This is the filter that prevents you from reading scripture with the clarity of The Spirit and which caused you to cherry pick verses that support your own human traditional view. The most indicting case against the Protestant error of imputation is found in the Greek word ‘logizomai’.
Αυτό που είναι η ιστορία σας στη μελέτη των ελληνικών και γιατί θα έπρεπε εγώ να σας θεωρήσει
If you want to learn the truth and start preaching an honest gospel you need to become Catholic and get properly Catechised.
First, I already know the truth and I already preach an honest Gospel.
Jesus only authorized the apostles and they their successors to teach the word of God.
Really? And you come to that conclusion…how, exactly?
So, I suggest you contact your nearest Catholic Church and ask them when you can talk to a priest about becoming a Catholic and starting the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA)
Why on Earth would I want to join a religious organization that (a) I don’t believe is Biblical and (b) has representatives like you?
 
I don’t believe that’s true. I don’t believe that it’s all that Biblical and I don’t believe that Protestant and Baptist churches are Unbiblical.
But what does your bible believe and teach? :rolleyes:
I disagree. The Bible teaches it very clearly.
You are sounding like a random phrase generator with only a 2 or 3 buzz phrase vocabulary. 1) My bible does not teach me that and 2) That is not biblical and 3) I don’t believe the bibles teaches that.

When you were a kid and played cowboys and Indians did you got into regular disputes that sounded like the old worn pattern of: “I shot you!”, “No! But I shot you first”… ?

Come on be intellectually honest please and put some grey-matter and rational thought forward to defend your faith.
Αυτό που είναι η ιστορία σας στη μελέτη των ελληνικών και γιατί θα έπρεπε εγώ να σας θεωρήσει
Γιατί είναι σχετικές με εσάς; Το Google είναι ανόητη για βλάκες.
First, I already know the truth and I already preach an honest Gospel.
You are not demonstrating that. Refute the points that were made without a single utterance of the phrase “But the bible does not tell me that”. Come on PJ be a man and put your thinking cap on.
Really? And you come to that conclusion…how, exactly?
Some things are axiomatic.
Why on Earth would I want to join a religious organization that (a) I don’t believe is Biblical and (b) has representatives like you?
It might teach you to be more intellectually honest and teach you how to be more courteous and non-insulting for starters.
Are you ‘really, really, really, Gosh-golly not-kidding, hallelujah brother’ saved yet? Are you sure? How do you know if your name is not in the bible? :rolleyes:

James
 
Jim…

Do these former Catholics tell you why they are leaving to become Protestant ?

Share some of their reasons with us if you might.
I do music ministry for a protestant church and about one-third or more of the congregation are ex-Catholics. Why? The vast majority divorced and married outside of the Church (some are even living together which boggles my mind). To me, they were willing to throw out everything just to do what they want without thinking things through.
 
Why on Earth would I want to join a religious organization that (a) I don’t believe is Biblical and (b) has representatives like you?
Come on everyone-- 1 Peter 3:15!!! With charity!!! Poor old Pastor Jim is getting it from all sides here and he’s patiently stating what he believes, should he be derided for that? Does anyone seriously doubt his sincerity and love of the LORD? I for one don’t. I admire his conviction and the charity he has shown in his posts. Because you have been treated badly by Protestant forums is no reason to be rude to all Protestants!

Sorry-- just had to say that! 😊

I also want to see what the good Pastor has to say about Church Militant’s post!

Pax vobiscum!

Mark+
 
I also want to see what the good Pastor has to say about Church Militant’s post!

Pax vobiscum!

Mark+
But with the lack of charity he has received here, who knows if he will? Come on! This thread is not about anti-Catholicism so lets us not see Jack Chick in every Protestant. We will be in heaven with a lot of these folks so why not try to act with at least a little more grace.

Sometimes in the anonymous world of the internet we overlook that there is a real soul on the other end that deserves the love of Christian fellowship as much as the man we see face to face.
 
No, that was the thing where a load of people saw that the church that they cherished had become corrupt and heretical and left in order to gather like minded believers together to get back to following BIblical teaching and reform the church.
This statement reflects a couple very serious errors. One is the apparent lack of recognition of the Church. The Church is not just the body of believers.

Eph 5:25-28
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.

The Church is the pure bride of Christ, sanctified, cleansed by Christ Himself. She is without spot or wrinke or anythin of the kind. This is why the Church is infallible, because her Head is Christ, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. It is the divine elements that make the church pure.

The fallible persons joined to her are always prone to heresy and corruption. It is these that require reform, not the Church.

The second error is that the Church is based on the Bible, which it is not. The Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. The Church was established and had the full deposit of faith prior to a word of the NT being written. The Church did not “lose” any of this foundation when some of the Teachings were committted to writing decades later.
Then perhaps you’re hanging out with the wrong Protestants and Baptists. I know many who are familiar with Catholic teaching, including many former Catholics.
Former Catholics are not familiar with Catholic teaching. If they were, they would never have left! If any of your Protestant friends demonstrate the same lack of understanding that you have shown here in your post, then it is clear why…
I agree. A good way to start to show that humility is to approach non-Catholic Christians with humility and stop telling them that they don’t know what they’re talking about.
It is quite possibly to humbly and charitably inform Protestants that they don’t know what they are talking about. It is not charitable to confirm people in error. 😃
Are you familiar with the Reformation?
Some of us prefer to call it the “deformation”. 😉
I don’t believe that it is everything Jesus taught, but I do believe that it is representative of everything Jesus taught and I do believe that it is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
This is a very Catholic attitude toward the scripture (as it should be, having been written by Paul, who was Catholic 👍 ). What this passage does not say is that the written word, by itself, can make the man of God perfect. Scrupture is profitable for this, but incomplete.

Yes, they were fallible men who had opinions that were sometimes Bibical and sometimes not.
 
Some leave because they’ve gotten saved
What do you mean by that, exactly?
want to find a church that reflects their new faith,
How do you know they don’t suffer from itching ears?

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.
some leave because they come to the realization that they can no longer support Catholic doctrines.
I suspect that they don’t know what these are, and don’t understand them.
One of the men in our Thursday morning class left because he felt that the Bible was being taught through the lens of Catholic dogma, instead of the other way around.
This is true. The Bible, having been written by, for, and about Catholics, should always be read through the lenst of what the Apostles taught (the Catholic faith) and not through any other lens. Most especially not through a lens that was created 1500 years later by persons who rejected the The Apostolic Succession.
There are as many reasons for leaving as there are individuals who have left.
Perhaps. Ignorance maybe being the primary.
If I had a nickle for every Catholic who told me that OSAS means that you can “sin all you want to” or that we don’t respect the authority of the church, that we’re all “your own pope”, or any of a dozen of the ways they mangle sola scriptura, I’d be a very rich man.
Me too! Can I buy stock? 😉
No, doctrinal issues, not moral ones (although I’m loathe to bring it up, I can see how the sex abuse scandals would drive people away.)
The moral issues are all based on doctrinal issues, so it is not really appropriate to try to separate them. I agree with you, though, sin always drives people away from God.
I talk with Catholics all the time, but when they start talking about OSAS, sola scriptura, our doctrines on church authority and the priesthood of the believer, they always get it wrong.
I think that most Catholics are even more ignorant of Protestant theoligy than they are Catholic! :eek:
Should I then assume that no Catholic knows anything about what we believe?
No, most Catholics don’t spend enough time studying what the Apostles taught, much less what their detractors taught. I don’t think such an assumption would be safe.
 
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