Baptists vs. Catholicism

[Sean_Boyle]

“Have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Mt 22:31-32

Warning… warning… warning

This thread is being led off topic by deceptive practices. The accusation leveled about “praying to the dead or whatever it was” is an effort to derail and sidetrack conversation away from issues at hand. The poster is being forced to use logic which was undermining his personal theology, and they don’t like losing an argument to mere catholics.

Don’t waste time fighting a strawman.

 

[trrocks03]

Warning… warning… warning

This thread is being led off topic by deceptive practices. The accusation leveled about “praying to the dead or whatever it was” is an effort to derail and sidetrack conversation away from issues at hand. The poster is being forced to use logic which was undermining his personal theology, and they don’t like losing an argument to mere catholics.

Don’t waste time fighting a strawman.

Good point, lets get back to the original topic at hand, and not let “deception” lead us away from finding the truth.

I have to admit, I am a Cradle Catholic, and had slowed down on my faith since leaving high school. But I do owe it to one man, a Baptist, to bring me back to the faith. He interegated me about “was I saved” and I tried to recall some of my old Catholic teachings, but fell short of what I remembered. So I told the guy we would discuss in more detail the next time I ran into him (he is a friend of my g/f’s dad, who is also non-denom). Ever since, I have been reading and learning all I can about the Catholic faith and I feel my faith is so much stronger now. I haven’t had an opportunity to run into the guy again, but I am looking forward to the day, so we can discuss the Church and its true teachings. I am going to volunteer at a Catechist (sp?) at my church for the fall semester and I think it will be fun.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Good point, lets get back to the original topic at hand, and not let “deception” lead us away from finding the truth.

I have to admit, I am a Cradle Catholic, and had slowed down on my faith since leaving high school. But I do owe it to one man, a Baptist, to bring me back to the faith. He interegated me about “was I saved” and I tried to recall some of my old Catholic teachings, but fell short of what I remembered. So I told the guy we would discuss in more detail the next time I ran into him (he is a friend of my g/f’s dad, who is also non-denom). Ever since, I have been reading and learning all I can about the Catholic faith and I feel my faith is so much stronger now. I haven’t had an opportunity to run into the guy again, but I am looking forward to the day, so we can discuss the Church and its true teachings. I am going to volunteer at a Catechist (sp?) at my church for the fall semester and I think it will be fun.

I can really identify with your story:thumbsup:

 

[Neal]

Right. You want to violate the Bible’s condemnation of the act of praying to the dead.

As previously mentioned, the saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ. Remember during the transfiguration, Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah…

The OT prohibition had to do with trying to commune with the dead, like modern day new age practices. A “prayer” to a saint is asking a saint to pray for us, a task that they can do through Christ our Lord, so that all those in Christ might be one. I apologize if any of my brothers and sisters have seemed rude or “called you names,” they are very passionate about their faith and feel that it is under attack, and I must say that many of your posts due seem to insinuate, if not flat out claim, that catholics are not Christians. This is a false claim as Catholics, like you yourself, hold to a faith that God became man in Jesus Christ, suffered and died for our sins, descended to the dead, rose and ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father Almighty, and will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Pastor Jim, this goes to you and those who are being mean to you, do not let your zeal for Christ turn into anger, always act in Christian Charity.

Peace be with you!

 

[jmcrae]

However, that doesn’t explain those parables that have nothing to do with the afterlife and it doesn’t excuse the mistake of basing doctrine on them.

Which parables are there that don’t have anything to do with the afterlife (and what are they about, if not the afterlife)?

 

[pnewton]

“And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God”

That’s referring to his faith, not his works.
.

Yes, it was. But anytime a conjunction joins two thoughts one can not separate them the two verses immediately previous to the one you quote is:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
Neither I nor anyone will deny that faith is essential to salvation. But faith which does not result in an outward change of action is useless. It is the type of faith the demons have. They believe in God, yet have chosen not to serve Him.

One is neither saved by works or faith. One is saved by faith that is translated into repentance and thus ones works goes from works of darkness to works of light. The other side of the coin is that one is saved by the good works that have preceded from a repentant heart because one has faith in God.

I am reminded of the Dr. Seuss rhyme.

I have a bird
I like to hold.
My shoe is off.
My foot is cold.

My shoe is off.
My foot is cold.
I have a bird
I liked to hold.
My hat is old.
My teeth are gold.
And now
my story
**

I notice that you embolded the parts that support your doctrine, but completely ignored the parts that contradict your doctrine.

**

But you omitted the verses entirely. Which is worse? Catholics do not deny the necessity of faith, just that faith apart from works (or at least the willingness to do good) is useless.

 

[geezerbob]

Pastor Jim, several days ago, I asked how you reconciled the teachings of Jesus in the parable of the sheep and the goats (Mt. 25:31-46) with your belirf in faith alone and you dismissed it as only a parable. You later questioned citing parables that had nothing to do with salvation.

I’ll now try it again. Please read this parable and explain to me how it does not apply to the way we live our lives and to our salvation when the words are right out of Jesus’ mouth, including what happens if we do what He says and what happens if we don’t.

You can argue “imputed righteousness” and other theological inventions from now until judgement day but none of it can supersede the very plain and emphatic words of our Savior concerning what we must do to enter heaven. I pray that you will be able to see and comprehend this before that day arrives.

 

[sodak]

I helped your arguement a little more, even though we have all seen it a hundred times…

I notice that you embolded the parts that support your doctrine, but completely ignored the parts that contradict your doctrine.

Not at all. I bolded the parts that emphasize my point. None of the parts contradict my doctrine at all, because it’s not my doctrine, but the Catholic Church’s.

Interesting that you think there’s a contradiction here. Pnewton explained it very well.

We don’t get to pick and choose Scripture. You either believe it, or you don’t. And that does mean all of it. “My” doctrine is in harmony with ALL of the verses. “Your” doctrine is not.

 

[SPH1]

Try this: Biblical Truth for Baptists

 

[Pastor_Jim]

The Old Testament condemned a practice of praying to the dead. I don’t do that. In the Old Testament no one could have been in heaven with God. Christ shattered death and now people are with Him in paradise. That changes things. The Saints aren’t dead. They’re fully alive. Sorry you don’t understand.

Pax Christi tecum.

I understand just fine, thank you.

Could you please show where in scripture you see God’s condemnation against praying to the dead superceded?

“Have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Mt 22:31-32

The Bible talks about the “dead in Christ”. Would you please explain who you believe the “dead in Christ” are?

As previously mentioned, the saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ. Remember during the transfiguration, Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah…

Yes, I remember. I also remember that Moses and Elijah were dead.

I apologize if any of my brothers and sisters have seemed rude or “called you names,” they are very passionate about their faith and feel that it is under attack

I feel very passionate about my faith and yet, I haven’t sunk to the level of calling names or making personal attacks.

and I must say that many of your posts due seem to insinuate, if not flat out claim, that catholics are not Christians.

The sad part is that you’ll just keep insisting that I said that Catholics are not Christians in order to demonize me in the eyes of your fellow Catholics, but you will never be honest enough to show evidence of my ever having said this.

This is a false claim as Catholics, like you yourself, hold to a faith that God became man in Jesus Christ, suffered and died for our sins, descended to the dead, rose and ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father Almighty, and will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I never said that there aren’t individuals within Catholicism who are Christians.

Pastor Jim, this goes to you and those who are being mean to you, do not let your zeal for Christ turn into anger, always act in Christian Charity.

I have, thank you very much.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

No, of course this would be the truth as the bible versus you quote are not only misinterpreted but also king james.

Josh, here’s a challenge for you: instead of just repeating “you misinterpreted” over and over, why don’t you take a minute and go over the verses that I cited and explain how I misinterpreted them and what the correct interpretation is?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I understand just fine, thank you.

Could you please show where in scripture you see God’s condemnation against praying to the dead superceded?

PJ, have you confused yourself? This question implies that you are very confused about the loving and eternal God. I hope you are not privately interpreting Deut 18:10-12 as Peter in 2 Ptr 1:20 warns against private interpretation brother. The Catholic Church has always taught that occult practise which use mediums, spiritists, etc. to “call up the dead” is offensive to God. But God in no way condems praying for loved ones. As a matter of fact The Saints in Heaven love us and want to pray for us. We see in 1 Corinthians 13:28 that love never ends. If love never ends then expressions of love can and should never end. Do you have any deceased persons that you love or did you stop loving them just because they went to God? Do you ever think of them? Is that an occult practise? No, of course its not. Good. Don’t you feel better now that you now know that its a natural human desire to love and think and pray for those we love? See PJ, you are learning all kinds of good things here at CAF. Did you know that the Saints in Heaven are alive? Of course you did since if you have ever read Mt 22:31-32 you would know that Matthew tells us that “God is the God of the Living”! Isn’t that wonderful? This truly is God telling us again to not misunderstand the very old OT passage in Deut 18 and be afraid to love and talk to those that are very much still alive after they leave this earth. No, God in facts tells us that for good people love never dies and we can be confident that we do not offend God to recollect and talk to those we love but who are no longer physically present. But it gets even better. The Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13:8 that the Saints in Heaven love us and THEY also want to pray for us! Isn’t that amazing - love goes both ways!

And God say fit to give us examples of intercessors and mediators again and again and again in Mt 18:10, Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4.

• Matthew 18:10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. ed. our angles pray for us]
• Revelations 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
• Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

PJ, I bet you are sure happy now that you came to CAF to learn all these good things and to realize that God let’s us pray for those who are alive in Christ and that we may be assured that they love us to ask them for their intercessions.

The Bible talks about the “dead in Christ”. Would you please explain who you believe the “dead in Christ” are?

Oh PJ, there you go again my friend. You already know the answer to this one. From Romans 8:38-39 we know that when the body dies in physical death that that does not separate us from the Body of Christ. Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

For those that live in Christ there is no death. Some have used ther expression “dead in Christ” to distinguish that those no longer physically present (and dead in the conventional sense of human experience) are not really dead because Christ is risen and are in Christ and are therefor very much alive. The good news for your brother is that means again you need not be afraid to pray for the living or the dead! I bet you are a happy camper now?

Yes, I remember. I also remember that Moses and Elijah were dead.

See the above - the apostles tell us that they were very much alive - but just not physically present to us in the same way we normally see and interact with each other.

I hope this answers your questions and your time here on CAF has been productive to furthering your understanding of scripture, true Church Teaching and will let you come into full communion and fellowship with God’s Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

James

 

[SD_Catholic]

I understand just fine, thank you.

Could you please show where in scripture you see God’s condemnation against praying to the dead superceded?

The Bible talks about the “dead in Christ”. Would you please explain who you believe the “dead in Christ” are?

Yes, I remember. I also remember that Moses and Elijah were dead.

I feel very passionate about my faith and yet, I haven’t sunk to the level of calling names or making personal attacks.

.

Pastor Jim… I’ve seen your posts since you started and I won’t give you the benefit of playing the, “poor Pastor Jim” card… For a pastor you leave a lot to be desired when it comes to being charitable (I do wonder if you were the one banned under the user name “thecoach”)… you’ve made plenty of personal attacks in the short time you’ve been here.

On your problem this time… we believe we are praying with the living, not the dead… does our body give life or does our soul give us real life?.. Are our souls dead when our bodies fail? We must view “eternal life” differently since you seem to be saying if the body dies, everything dies.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

PJ, have you confused yourself? This question implies that you are very confused about the loving and eternal God. I hope you are not privately interpreting Deut 18:10-12 as Peter in 2 Ptr 1:20 warns against private interpretation brother. The Catholic Church has always taught that occult practise which use mediums, spiritists, etc. to “call up the dead” is offensive to God. But God in no way condems praying for loved ones. As a matter of fact The Saints in Heaven love us and want to pray for us. We see in 1 Corinthians 13:28 that love never ends. If love never ends then expressions of love can and should never end. Do you have any deceased persons that you love or did you stop loving them just because they went to God? Do you ever think of them? Is that an occult practise? No, of course its not. Good. Don’t you feel better now that you now know that its a natural human desire to love and think and pray for those we love? See PJ, you are learning all kinds of good things here at CAF. Did you know that the Saints in Heaven are alive? Of course you did since if you have ever read Mt 22:31-32 you would know that Matthew tells us that “God is the God of the Living”! Isn’t that wonderful? This truly is God telling us again to not misunderstand the very old OT passage in Deut 18 and be afraid to love and talk to those that are very much still alive after they leave this earth. No, God in facts tells us that for good people love never dies and we can be confident that we do not offend God to recollect and talk to those we love but who are no longer physically present. But it gets even better. The Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13:8 that the Saints in Heaven love us and THEY also want to pray for us! Isn’t that amazing - love goes both ways!

And God say fit to give us examples of intercessors and mediators again and again and again in Mt 18:10, Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4.

• Matthew 18:10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. ed. our angles pray for us]
• Revelations 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
• Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

PJ, I bet you are sure happy now that you came to CAF to learn all these good things and to realize that God let’s us pray for those who are alive in Christ and that we may be assured that they love us to ask them for their intercessions.

Oh PJ, there you go again my friend. You already know the answer to this one. From Romans 8:38-39 we know that when the body dies in physical death that that does not separate us from the Body of Christ. Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

For those that live in Christ there is no death. Some have used ther expression “dead in Christ” to distinguish that those no longer physically present (and dead in the conventional sense of human experience) are not really dead because Christ is risen and are in Christ and are therefor very much alive. The good news for your brother is that means again you need not be afraid to pray for the living or the dead! I bet you are a happy camper now?

See the above - the apostles tell us that they were very much alive - but just not physically present to us in the same way we normally see and interact with each other.

I hope this answers your questions and your time here on CAF has been productive to furthering your understanding of scripture, true Church Teaching and will let you come into full communion and fellowship with God’s Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

James

I’m way too slow…

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Pastor Jim… I’ve seen your posts since you started and I won’t give you the benefit of playing the, “poor Pastor Jim” card

And I would not play such a card.

For a pastor you leave a lot to be desired when it comes to being charitable (I do wonder if you were the one banned under the user name “thecoach”)… you’ve made plenty of personal attacks in the short time you’ve been here.

No, I am not the coach or anyone else. I’m just me.

You say that I’ve “made plenty of personal attacks” and yet, despite being asked several times to provide examples, you have not been able to do so.

How do you explain your inability to present any of these alleged attacks?

Honestly, I don’t expect you to behave charitably to a non-Catholic who has the nerve to back his doctrine up with scripture, but I do believe that if you’re going to claim to be a Christian, that you should behave in a Christ-like manner.

On your problem this time… we believe we are praying with the living, not the dead

I see. So then, the “saints” you pray to all went to Heaven without dying first?

does our body give life or does our soul give us real life?.. Are our souls dead when our bodies fail? We must view “eternal life” differently since you seem to be saying if the body dies, everything dies.

Strawman. I never said this.

 

[SD_Catholic]

And I would not play such a card.

No, I am not the coach or anyone else. I’m just me.

You say that I’ve “made plenty of personal attacks” and yet, despite being asked several times to provide examples, you have not been able to do so.

How do you explain your inability to present any of these alleged attacks?

Honestly, I don’t expect you to behave charitably to a non-Catholic who has the nerve to back his doctrine up with scripture, but I do believe that if you’re going to claim to be a Christian, that you should behave in a Christ-like manner.

I see. So then, the “saints” you pray to all went to Heaven without dying first?

Strawman. I never said this.

Uhmmm… you’ve never asked me once to provide examples… you must have me confused with someone else.

I’ll accept that you’re not thecoach

Jim… Everytime someone gives you scripture from a Catholic POV you either ignore it or brush it off as misinterpreting… I don’t believe you are here with an open heart… you come into threads blast out your comments like a machine gun often without sticking to the thread topic… and when you run out of arguments you either leave the thread or start a new topic…

On Saints…It depends on what Pastor Jim means by dying? The body dies but if the soul is with God it lives forever… I’ll try to keep it simple for you… The saints I pray with or ask to pray for me, I believe are alive with God.…

I’m just a poor sinful Catholic trying to remain a candidate for heaven… you are a pastor… someone I would expect to be the most charitable when dealing God’s children, yet you seem to be one of the harshest and most critical posters in each thread you participate in… I’m sure you will say I’m saying this just because you’re protestant but if you would go back and read some of your posts you may see where I’m coming from.

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Jim… Everytime someone gives you scripture from a Catholic POV you either ignore it or brush it off as misinterpreting…

Again, show examples.

I don’t believe you are here with an open heart… you come into threads blast out your comments like a machine gun often without sticking to the thread topic… and when you run out of arguments you either leave the thread or start a new topic…

Actually, I haven’t started any topics at all.

I’m curious, do you believe that your fellow Catholics who refuse to show scripture or acknowledge the many passages of scripture I’ve shown, preferring instead to call me names and make ad hom attacks have “open hearts”?

On Saints…It depends on what Pastor Jim means by dying?

I mean exactly what the Bible means: those who have left this Earthly realm of existance when their bodies die.

The saints I pray with or ask to pray for me, I believe are alive with God.…

Right. The key words here being “I believe”. I

I’m just a poor sinful Catholic trying to remain a candidate for heaven… you are a pastor… someone I would expect to be the most charitable when dealing God’s children, yet you seem to be one of the harshest and most critical posters in each thread you participate in

And yet, in spite of your constant accusations of this, you’re still unable to provide any examples, despite having been asked many times.

I’m sure you will say I’m saying this just because you’re protestant but if you would go back and read some of your posts you may see where I’m coming from.

I’m very well aware of my posts, thank you, and I’m also very well aware that you have not provided even one example to back up your accusations.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Again, show examples.

Actually, I haven’t started any topics at all.

I’m curious, do you believe that your fellow Catholics who refuse to show scripture or acknowledge the many passages of scripture I’ve shown, preferring instead to call me names and make ad hom attacks have “open hearts”?

I mean exactly what the Bible means: those who have left this Earthly realm of existance when their bodies die.

Right. The key words here being “I believe”. I

And yet, in spite of your constant accusations of this, you’re still unable to provide any examples, despite having been asked many times.

I’m very well aware of my posts, thank you, and I’m also very well aware that you have not provided even one example to back up your accusations.

Jim… this is the first time you’ve asked me to show you examples… is it at all possible that you mistakened me for another poster when you keep saying “constant accusations”, and “still unable”… that was the first time I even mentioned it:shrug:

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

Again, show examples.

I mean exactly what the Bible means: those who have left this Earthly realm of existance when their bodies die.

Right. The key words here being “I believe”. I

.

I said the body dies… I also said the body is not what lives it’s the soul…

A simple question Jim…Do you believe a soul in heaven with God is dead?

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Jim… this is the first time you’ve asked me to show you examples… is it at all possible that you mistakened me for another poster when you keep saying “constant accusations”, and “still unable”… that was the first time I even mentioned it:shrug:

SD

Can you or can you not provide any examples to back up your accusations against me?

A simple question Jim…Do you believe a soul in heaven with God is dead?

I believe that people in Heaven cannot go to Heaven (apart from the rapture or special circumstances, such as Enoch and Elijah) unless they have died first.

Now, do you have examples or not?