Baptists vs. Catholicism

[trrocks03]

You say that I’ve “made plenty of personal attacks” and yet, despite being asked several times to provide examples, you have not been able to do so.

How do you explain your inability to present any of these alleged attacks?

Honestly, I don’t expect you to behave charitably to a non-Catholic who has the nerve to back his doctrine up with scripture, but I do believe that if you’re going to claim to be a Christian, that you should behave in a Christ-like manner.

Pastor Jim, I have read some of your posts over the last few weeks and you do come off as insulting, but you really aren’t actually insulting. Its more of a frustration because it seems that you are just saying the same thing over and over, which usually includes: “why do you attack me”, “its not what the bible says”, “i’d rather believe the word of God over your institution” or “could you provide some evidence?”

Those are all fine, but I think people get offended when you call their “institution” inadequate to God, when they believe it is what Christ founded.

Anyway, lets get closer to the original topic. Many times you have said that either “we are interpreting the bible incorrectly” or “we are not being led by the Holy Spirit”. In the story where Jesus says “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off”, would I be wrong for cutting off my hand? I do sin, because I am a sinner, but I have not cut my hand off. Should I do this?

 

[SD_Catholic]

Can you or can you not provide any examples to back up your accusations against me?

I believe that people in Heaven cannot go to Heaven (apart from the rapture or special circumstances, such as Enoch and Elijah) unless they have died first.

Now, do you have examples or not?

Yes I can give examples but I don’t see how it would contribute to the thread… how will pointing out your rudeness with examples help in this thread?

Anyway, Jim… do you believe a soul in heaven with God is dead? yes or no will work fine

SD

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Yes I can give examples but I don’t see how it would contribute to the thread… how will pointing out your rudeness with examples help in this thread?

So then, it was helpful to the thread for you to make false accusations and personal attacks, but not helpful to the thread to back up your false accusations?

How did you decide that making false accusations would be helpful to the thread?

Anyway, Jim… do you believe a soul in heaven with God is dead? yes or no will work fine

Again, in order for the person to be in Heaven in the first place, they must first die.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Pastor Jim, I have read some of your posts over the last few weeks and you do come off as insulting

Please give an example.

 

[trrocks03]

Please give an example.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

So then, there are two of you making the same accusation and even between the two of you, you can’t come up with one example.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Again, in order for the person to be in Heaven in the first place, they must first die.

Bravo PJ you believe the same thing as Catholics do and admit that those in heaven are not “dead” in the Christian sense of the word. This means that one is not praying to the dead in the negative sense of OT warnings against mediums and spiritists etc. It’s also surprising to see you reject the popular pulp-fiction among some modernist Protestants who believe in a pre-dispensational rapture.

Just one minor technical correction PJ. You of course already know but forgot to mention that there are a few exceptions in scripture where its possible to get to paradise (but not necessarily immediately all the way into the beatific vision) without the body first physically dieing. Recollect that the OT figures Enoch and Elijah were spared from death and taken directly to heaven (Genesis 5:23; 2 Kings 2:11). . As well, we also know from scripture that a number of Christians still alive after the 2nd coming will be directly received into heaven without ever dieing.

James

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Bravo PJ you believe the same thing as Catholics do and admit that those in heaven are not “dead” in the Christian sense of the word. This means that one is not praying to the dead in the negative sense of OT warnings against mediums and spiritists etc. It’s also surprising to see you reject the popular pulp-fiction among some modernist Protestants who believe in a pre-dispensational rapture.

Just one minor technical correction PJ. You of course already know but forgot to mention that there are a few exceptions in scripture where its possible to get to paradise (but not necessarily immediately all the way into the beatific vision) without the body first physically dieing. Recollect that the OT figures Enoch and Elijah were spared from death and taken directly to heaven (Genesis 5:23; 2 Kings 2:11). . As well, we also know from scripture that a number of Christians still alive after the 2nd coming will be directly received into heaven without ever dieing.

James

So, do you really believe that God is honored by you constantly lying about what I believe? Is that what Catholicism teaches you to do?

 

[trrocks03]

Pastor Jim, I have read some of your posts over the last few weeks and you do come off as insulting, but you really aren’t actually insulting. Its more of a frustration because it seems that you are just saying the same thing over and over, which usually includes: “why do you attack me”, “its not what the bible says”, “i’d rather believe the word of God over your institution” or “could you provide some evidence?”

Those are all fine, but I think people get offended when you call their “institution” inadequate to God, when they believe it is what Christ founded.

Anyway, lets get closer to the original topic. Many times you have said that either “we are interpreting the bible incorrectly” or “we are not being led by the Holy Spirit”. In the story where Jesus says “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off”, would I be wrong for cutting off my hand? I do sin, because I am a sinner, but I have not cut my hand off. Should I do this?

I have read some of your posts over the last few weeks and you do come off as insulting

This is a great example of how some people take words out of context. If you were to keep reading the line, you would see that I said you were not actually insulting.

From the NIV

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

but if I were not-catholic, I might just quote this…

James does not say deeds are neccessary, look

23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness

Even though the entire rest of the paragraph explicitly says it takes more than just faith. Oh well, I am sure I am going to have to provide more evidence anyway.

 

[pnewton]

I’m curious, do you believe that your fellow Catholics who refuse to show scripture or acknowledge the many passages of scripture I’ve shown, preferring instead to call me names and make ad hom attacks have “open hearts”?

I would like to point out that I have consistently responded to Scripture with Scripture. On the topic of the state of those in heaven and what kind of role they play, if any, in the life of the Church, we will find no definitive answers in Scripture. That is why settling the question of authority must come before anything else. Otherwise we constantly return to the issue of why we are limited to Scripture.

And, by the way, if I were grading civility, you would finish ahead of some of the Catholics on this thread. Come on already. This is not about personalities, attacks and hurt feelings. It is supposed to be about differences between Catholics and Baptists, the principles, not the personalities.

 

[SD_Catholic]

So then, it was helpful to the thread for you to make false accusations and personal attacks, but not helpful to the thread to back up your false accusations?

How did you decide that making false accusations would be helpful to the thread?

Again, in order for the person to be in Heaven in the first place, they must first die.

my personal attack on you … I hate stooping to this level and I doubt it will mean anything to you… you will say somebody else said something first (which doesn’t matter since we’re talking about you) or you didn’t think it was rude… Anyway in hopes that it will get you to accept some of your actions as rude and uncharitable I will give a couple of examples (perhaps this will allow us to return to the main topic)…

Do you recall telling someone their opinions about Scripture were poison kool-ade?

Do you recall telling someone that they are to exegesis what OJ was to Nicole?

Sorry Jim those words just don’t sound charitable to me.

Now since I’ve answered your question can you answer mine… do you believe that a soul in heaven with God is dead?… that should be a simple yes or no answer.

SD

 

[CentralFLJames]

So, do you really believe that God is honored by you constantly lying about what I believe? Is that what Catholicism teaches you to do?

PJ, that is a very uncharitable thing to say. I thought you were agreeing with Catholics. There is no need to call me a liar. Did I misunderstand you brother? I invite you to explain what you meant if I misinterpreted your very own words. Words are so hard to understand without actually knowing a person personally aren’t they? This is fine example of why Catholics and scripture warns against private interpretation since even when things are written down its easy to read in meaning that is not present or was not intended by the original author. Don’t you agree PJ? This is why the Catholic church relies on its 2,000 year old apostolic tradition to understand what the apostles meant since the Catholic church maintains a succession of people who actually all personally knew their apostolic predecessors. Where do you as a pastor in the Baptist Church get to know the apostles personally and know that you are not misinterpreting what they taught? Did anyone in your church personally know anyone who descended directly from an apostle PJ? Do people in your church call you a liar when they read something in the bible that they see but you don’t?

I wait for your clarification.

God Bless Brother,
James

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Do you recall telling someone their opinions about Scripture were poison kool-ade?

No. Please show a source for this.

Now since I’ve answered your question can you answer mine… do you believe that a soul in heaven with God is dead?… that should be a simple yes or no answer.

I’ve already answered this question three times.
"CentralFloridaJames:

PJ, that is a very uncharitable thing to say.

Why? Why is it uncharitable to ask whether or not you believe your constant lying about what I believe is honoring to God?

I thought you were agreeing with Catholics. There is no need to call me a liar.

Actually, you’ve repeatedly lied about what I believe.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

PJ, that is a very uncharitable thing to say.

Why? Why is it uncharitable to ask whether or not you believe your constant lying about what I believe is honoring to God?

I thought you were agreeing with Catholics. There is no need to call me a liar.

Actually, you’ve repeatedly lied about what I believe.

 

[trrocks03]

Pastor Jim, some of us want to have a discussion on the differences between Baptists and Catholics. If you do not want to discuss this topic, you should go to another thread. It does not help anyone when you only discuss the out-of-context words you believe are insults. Could you please respond to the questions in a form that does not include or resemble the following?

“my bible doesn’t say that”
“i perfer the word of God over what you say”
“I prefer the word of God over your particular institution”
“Where did I ever say that?”
“You continue to insult me and my beliefs”
“You continue to lie about what I believe”

 

[SD_Catholic]

No. Please show a source for this.

I’ve already answered this question three times.

Teflon said your argument was weak tea and you told him that weak tea was better than his poison kool-ade… ring a bell now?

How about the OJ/Nicole comment… I suppose that was necessary to.

Anyway Jim… you haven’t answered my question… you haven’t said anything about wether a soul in heaven with God is dead or alive… Brother I’m making it simple for you… Is a soul in heaven with God dead? I’m not asking for all your extra thoughts on what happens before getting there… please, I give you your examples, I’m just asking for a simple yes or no answer.

SD

 

[CentralFLJames]

Why? Why is it uncharitable to ask whether or not you believe your constant lying about what I believe is honoring to God?

Actually, you’ve repeatedly lied about what I believe.

PJ, earlier you asked others here to give you examples of your uncharitable behavior. I am sorry to say I must also take their side and have to say this is yet another example brother. You call me a liar for observing areas of apparent common agreement - that is unwarranted and uncharitable slander brother. I observed where we had common ground of belief. Yet you are a person who apparently is unable to even accept the courtesy of acknowledging agreement. Is the contempt for others so high that you can’t even accept recognition on things we agree on? I am sorry to say PJ that appears to have non-Christian elements of hatred and contempt in it brother. Are you a hateful person? Are you truly saved yet and reborn yet brother?

f you do not agree with me it would be more Christian to say “that is not what I meant” or “you misunderstand my position” rather than say “you are a liar”. Don’t you agree brother?

God Bless,
James

 

[rtconstant]

Is there a website, or could someone please summarize some of the core areas where Baptists differ from Catholics in terms of theology, Christology, and the Bible? I am going to be among a small group teaching an RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation for Children) and the parents will be attending with the children. The father of one of the boys is a Baptist, and while he’s not opposed to letting his son become Catholic, he himself seems to pretty staunch to remain Baptist. I would like to know what Baptists believe so that I might use “sleight of hand” in my presentations to show the boys plus this father why Catholicism is different and true.

Thanks.

As a former SBC baptist I can say that the links that were provided for you earlier in this thread will give a good spring board for understanding the dominant Baptist beliefs. Keep in mind that there many different Baptist denominations some differing in doctrine others in structure. Most be Baptists believe in OSAS but there are denominations descended from the General Baptist (one of the two original Baptist bodies) sect that do not hold to this. Knowing what type of Baptist he is might help.

In general if you want to make an impact on him or “plant a seed” then putting a particular focus on scripture will help. While most Baptists (like most Christians) are not personally that knowledgeable in scripture they will revere it. References to the ECF’s can also be affective, it was for me anyway.

Most Baptists don’t really have any knowledge of the historical Church (they like most Christians simply assume their beliefs are the correct and original ones) and seeing how that clear Catholic beliefs and structures can historically verified back to the 100’s can be shocking when realized, as this flies in the face of many of their assumptions.

Also keep in mind that there are some Baptist congregations that are anti-intellectual. I don’t say that as an insult but to point out that there are some who think that reason, scholarship, and contextual study put up barriers to the Holy Spirit. There are baptist congregations that will only make pastors out of the least educated person there so as to safe gaurd themselves from the influence of reason and thus gain a “purer” message from the Holy Spirit. This type of Baptist can be very hard to reach as they will view almost any attempt at contextual reasoning from Scripture or historical reference as “tainted”. If he’s this type of Baptist then you’ve got tough road ahead of you.

Finally, there are liberal Baptist congregations. These like our own liberals are playing out a completely different rule book so it can be hard to reach them at an intellectual level. Liberals will shrug off Scripture without a second thought, and tend to view the Church and the various denominations as completely human structures. On the one hand a liberal won’t have any problem accepting that Catholicism is the historical Church, since this is historically obvious. However, since they see all Christian sects as human institutions, religious affiliation is more of a cultural consideration for them than anything else.

Hope this helps.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Teflon said your argument was weak tea and you told him that weak tea was better than his poison kool-ade… ring a bell now?

Oh, OK. That isn’t what you said before.

Yes, I did respond in kind. I see nothing wrong with following the example of Christ, Paul, Elijah and others in using sarcasm to make a point.

How about the OJ/Nicole comment… I suppose that was necessary to.

Yes.

Anyway Jim… you haven’t answered my question… you haven’t said anything about wether a soul in heaven with God is dead or alive… Brother I’m making it simple for you… Is a soul in heaven with God dead?

I’m sorry but, barring the use of hand puppets, I simply don’t know how to make it any simpler for you. I’ve answered your question several times now and I’m satisfied with my answer.

[childish name calling ommitted], earlier you asked others here to give you examples of your uncharitable behavior. I am sorry to say I must also take their side and have to say this is yet another example brother.

And yet, when I ask you to explain what is “uncharitable” about it, you cannot say.

You call me a liar for observing areas of apparent common agreement - that is unwarranted and uncharitable slander brother.

No, for you to consistently ignore what I say and say “I see that you agree with Catholicism” is a lie.

I observed where we had common ground of belief. Yet you are a person who apparently is unable to even accept the courtesy of acknowledging agreement. Is the contempt for others so high that you can’t even accept recognition on things we agree on?

Actually, there was no agreement. In fact, in most cases where you claimed I “agreed” with you, you did so after I just explained to you that I believe precisely the opposite of what you claim I do.

I am sorry to say [childish name calling omitted] that appears to have non-Christian elements of hatred and contempt in it brother.

And yet, if I were to ask you to give an example, you would be unable to.

Are you truly saved yet and reborn yet brother?

Yes, I was born again Aug 18, 1987.

f you do not agree with me it would be more Christian to say “that is not what I meant” or “you misunderstand my position” rather than say “you are a liar”. Don’t you agree brother?

No. I see nothing at all “Unchristian” about pointing out that you chose to lie about what I said.

Pastor Jim, some of us want to have a discussion on the differences between Baptists and Catholics.

So would I. That’s why it’s so frustrating to have to stop and point out all of the false accusations and personal attacks being made against me.

It does not help anyone when you only discuss the out-of-context words you believe are insults.

I’m sorry you feel that way but I do think that it’s necessary to point out that I have not said the things I’ve been accused of saying, nor believe the things I’ve been accused of believing.

Perhaps you could instruct your fellow Catholics to stop with the strawmen, false accusations, ad homs, and outright lies that make such defensive sidebars necessary.

Could you please respond to the questions in a form that does not include or resemble the following?

“my bible doesn’t say that”
“i perfer the word of God over what you say”
“I prefer the word of God over your particular institution”
“Where did I ever say that?”
“You continue to insult me and my beliefs”
“You continue to lie about what I believe”

I doubt it. If somebody claims something that the Bible doesn’t say, then I see nothing wrong with pointing out that the Bible doesn’t say so.

If somebody claims that I said something I did not or believe something I just said I do not, then I see no problem with pointing out that I did not say and do not believe those things.

Also keep in mind that there are some Baptist congregations that are anti-intellectual.

This, of course, coming from someone who’s religion has actually put people to death in the name of combatting intellectual dissent.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Oh, OK. That isn’t what you said before.

Yes, I did respond in kind. I see nothing wrong with following the example of Christ, Paul, Elijah and others in using sarcasm to make a point.

Yes.

I’m sorry but, barring the use of hand puppets, I simply don’t know how to make it any simpler for you. I’ve answered your question several times now and I’m satisfied with my answer.

Sheeshhh … OK Jim (I finally get it… do as I say not as I do)

I’m sorry… I guess I missed where you told me they were alive or dead with God… please… because I’m so blind could you tell me again… Is a soul in heaven with God dead?

I’m sure you would be satisfied with your answer but it didn’t answer my question so I have to keep asking it… Is a soul Dead or Alive when it’s with God in heaven? I beg you to answer one more time… pleeeeease!!! remember I’m not asking for the extras on getting there, just the alive or dead part once they’re there.

SD