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Gorillaman
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I’m talking about even if Romney makes it illegal the abortions would continue.
And see it’s those quotations around unwelcome…what’re you implying? That it’s silly for me to say that I feel unwelcome here?
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And see it’s those quotations around unwelcome…what’re you implying? That it’s silly for me to say that I feel unwelcome here?
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rlg94086
Guest
Locially, there will still be some abortions, just as there are still murders. However, it is also logical that the number of abortions would drastically decrease, if it is an illegal act throughout the country. The number willing to risk their own life for an illegal abortion or travel out of the country to procure one is small.
I don’t know that “silly” would be the correct word. An emotional feeling without real substance? You are welcome here, but you seem to be basing your feeling of unwelcomeness on the fact that people aren’t agreeing with you. If the only way you believe people can make you feel welcome is to give you a false feeling that we all agree, then you probably shouldn’t be debating political topics on a forum - Catholic or otherwise.
I have strong debates with my liberal, Atheist brother, but we love each other. We are welcome in each other’s home, and we enjoy having those debates. There was a time he didn’t feel welcome and complained about it. One Thanksgiving, he insisted we treat him, his wife and his wife’s live-in, lesbian lover as a “family unit.” It caused some strife until his wife left him, and he realized how messed up the situation was and how much we love him. Truth is more important than letting evil persist in the interest of being “welcoming.”
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Gorillaman
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Myeah I dig wat your saying. Honestly man this is why I avoid the Internet in general. People got too much guts sitting behind a screen and I can’t really say anything without being called " having an emotional feeling without substance" I’m really unacclimated to this cyber culture. But your misunderstanding what I am saying, I’m not mad at the idea of y’all having a different opinion. Im mad that this looks and sounds like a republican site, peole who post things about Obama being evil get thumbs up and “Locially, there will still be some abortions, just as there are still murders. However, it is also logical that the number of abortions would drastically decrease, if it is an illegal act throughout the country. The number willing to risk their own life for an illegal abortion or travel out of the country to procure one is small.
I don’t know that “silly” would be the correct word. An emotional feeling without real substance? You are welcome here, but you seem to be basing your feeling of unwelcomeness on the fact that people aren’t agreeing with you. If the only way you believe people can make you feel welcome is to give you a false feeling that we all agree, then you probably shouldn’t be debating political topics on a forum - Catholic or otherwise.
I have strong debates with my liberal, Atheist brother, but we love each other. We are welcome in each other’s home, and we enjoy having those debates. There was a time he didn’t feel welcome and complained about it. One Thanksgiving, he insisted we treat him, his wife and his wife’s live-in, lesbian lover as a “family unit.” It caused some strife until his wife left him, and he realized how messed up the situation was and how much we love him. Truth is more important than letting evil persist in the interest of being “welcoming.”
” but when I put something else it’s like I get attacked by “forum elders” or forum masters…whatever the heck those are haha.meltzerboy
New member
Robert, if murder were legal, do you think there would be significantly more murders? I don’t believe so, because people realize that murder is inherently morally wrong. Now I agree with you that the fact abortion is legal means there is a larger number of abortions than when it was illegal, even though abortions would still exist if Roe v. Wade were overturned just as they existed before Roe v. Wade. Why do you suppose that is? I would think many people don’t equate abortion with murder. Why is that? There are probably a number of reasons: the unborn child is not considered the same as a born person; a woman has the right to make the decision whether or not she is going to carry her unborn child to term since it is her body; arguments, religious and otherwise, concerning the physical and psychological health of the mother, including rape and incest; a means of birth control, that is, abortion on demand; poor and young women who decide they cannot support a child or another child. In other words, mainstream society does not regard abortion in the same way as it regards murder. Many Catholics do, some Protestants as well, and some Jews. But a large percentage of society (limiting the numbers to the US) does not, although the statistics are changing. To you and others, these people may all be ignorant or evil, perhaps both; but as a legal as well as moral issue, these other views should also make us at least recognize that abortion as the exact equivalent of murder is not a social reality, however strongly you and other people may believe it is according to the principles of your faith.Locially, there will still be some abortions, just as there are still murders. However, it is also logical that the number of abortions would drastically decrease, if it is an illegal act throughout the country. The number willing to risk their own life for an illegal abortion or travel out of the country to procure one is small.
I don’t know that “silly” would be the correct word. An emotional feeling without real substance? You are welcome here, but you seem to be basing your feeling of unwelcomeness on the fact that people aren’t agreeing with you. If the only way you believe people can make you feel welcome is to give you a false feeling that we all agree, then you probably shouldn’t be debating political topics on a forum - Catholic or otherwise.
I have strong debates with my liberal, Atheist brother, but we love each other. We are welcome in each other’s home, and we enjoy having those debates. There was a time he didn’t feel welcome and complained about it. One Thanksgiving, he insisted we treat him, his wife and his wife’s live-in, lesbian lover as a “family unit.” It caused some strife until his wife left him, and he realized how messed up the situation was and how much we love him. Truth is more important than letting evil persist in the interest of being “welcoming.”
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markomalley
Guest
I agree. I wish that everybody would be more orthodox in their beliefs. But as far as divisions, consider the words of Christ:
[BIBLEDRB]luke 12:51-53[/BIBLEDRB]
As long as people preach falsehood and call it the truth, I am obliged to point out their error. Tolerance for evil is the same as sport for that evil.
As far as the responsibility for abortions, I suggest you consider the concept of cooperation. In context of moral theology. No,politicians who vote for abortion, or fail to vote to eliminate it, are not holding the suction hose, but their cooperation in that evil is just as responsible.
I also encourage you to consider Evangelium Vitae 73 (I would quote from it, but my tablet computer does not want to cooperate), where the Holy Father tells us that abortion laws are never licit…he goes so far as to say that Catholics have a duty to resist.
So anybody who spots abortion is supporting evil… .whether that person holds the suction hose or votes for it on the floor of a legislative hall. Whether the person’s party is (D) or (R). it is an unfortunate fact of life that the majority… .no, the vast majority of politicians with a (D) after their names materially cooperate in that evil. And no Catholic should support that evil. Regardless of their prudential judgment on any other issue .
And if that causes division, oh well. I have a good example to follow (see the Biblical quote above, if you had any question)
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rlg94086
Guest
The only reason abortion is not considered an “exact equivalent” is due to the scientific ignorance of the first to reasons you listed (bolded). The unborn child is a human being, from a scientific perspective. To claim that religious/personal belief can change that fact is ignorance. To understand yet condone such an outlook is evil.
You may be willing to overlook scientific reality and claim it is a matter of faith. I am not.
Now, show me, scientifically, why a fetus can be considered less than human. Nazis and slaveholders certainly had their scientific arguments for why Jews and African slaves were less than human, so I’m sure you can provide the scientific argument that a pro-choice person would have.
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rlg94086
Guest
There are plenty ofMyeah I dig wat your saying. Honestly man this is why I avoid the Internet in general. People got too much guts sitting behind a screen and I can’t really say anything without being called " having an emotional feeling without substance" I’m really unacclimated to this cyber culture. But your misunderstanding what I am saying, I’m not mad at the idea of y’all having a different opinion. Im mad that this looks and sounds like a republican site, peole who post things about Obama being evil get thumbs up and “
and 
when Republicans are attacked. That’s why your complaint has little basis. “Forum elder” and “forum master” has to do with length of time and number of posts…nothing more. There are liberal Democrats with the same status.Honestly, I love you. Your posts are great fun. But, it just sounds like a little kid complaining about feelings, rather than engaging in the discussion. It’s all good though. We welcome kids, too.
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Gorillaman
Guest
But to me the house is the earth and I believe we are christs church…the division should be out there nor here. But I really loved the bible quotes…make me think.
I think were n the same page.
See but it think that supporting that evil is allowing and accepting that there arecatholics who are going to vote for Obama…don’t deny them,listen to them. They are your brothers… You know? Things are looking bleak …but the gates of hell will not prevail against this church. We are the churc…republican, independent, democrat, liberal…doesn’t matter…we are Catholics.
meltzerboy
New member
First let me ask you a question. If your faith contradicted scientific reality, would you abide by your faith or science? (I may start a new thread on this topic!) For example, if your faith were opposed to the theory of evolution, would you say that evolutionary theory is a scientific reality (it is in fact such), and disagree with your faith on that basis? Or, more relevant to this issue, do you believe an embryo, not a fetus, is the exact equivalent of a fully formed human life, based on scientific reality, and should be accorded the exact same human rights?
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rlg94086
Guest
Your first question and example are irrelevant to the question at hand, but feel free to start a thread about it. In regards to “exact human rights,” the question isn’t very well thought out. The different rights afforded to human beings vary by age and situation, so of course they wouldn’t have the “exact” same rights. The right to live, though, is the most fundamental right, afforded to all human beings. …or at least it should be. Are their some human beings whom you think are excluded?
meltzerboy
New member
Is an embryo, scientifically speaking, a human being?
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Same old, same old…
Can’t wait for him to leave the White House in 2012.
Yep.
Can’t wait for him to leave the White House in 2012.
Yep.
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OrdinaryMelkite
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Mickey
Guest
Please God…let it be so.
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rlg94086
Guest
Of course. Is it living? Yes. Is it a distinct being with its own, individual DNA? Yes. Is that DNA human? Yes. No-brainer.
Is there a scientific argument against an embryo being a human being? What do some scientists think it is?
meltzerboy
New member
Biologically speaking, a single-celled human zygote has human characteristics as do somatic cells taken from a human body. And while the cell has the potential to form a human being, the cell itself is not a human being. The cell’s having chromosomes and DNA is not synonymous with its being a human being. An egg is not the same as a chicken nor an acorn the same as an oak tree. This is the strict biological perspective for many biologists. However, our faith may tell us a somewhat different story.
Science defines all sorts of things differently from the way religion does. Death, for example, is now defined scientifically according to brain death; formerly, it was defined on the basis of the cessation of the beating of the heart. Again, religion may have different criteria. Of course, some things science doesn’t define at all, such as the soul.
If you’re interested, I began a new thread on this topic.
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rlg94086
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No. I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. A zygote is a new being…and it is human. It doesn’t just have “human characteristics,” and it is not the same as a somatic cell taken from a human body because it isn’t a part taken from another being. Nice try, though. By comparing it to an egg/chicken or acorn/tree, you’ve demonstrated a classic, unscientific outlook. Of course, an egg isn’t a chicken. Nor, is an ovum a human. An ovum is not the same as a zygote.
When does a human life begin, meltzerboy? At what point does an embryo/fetus become a human being? I’m not asking from a religious/philosophical perspective. This is science. If a biologist truly doesn’t believe that human life (i.e. a human being) begins at zygote, then they aren’t speaking scientifically.
meltzerboy
New member
Robert, take it up on my other thread, or start another one of your own. The zygote is formed from two other human beings.No. I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. A zygote is a new being…and it is human. It doesn’t just have “human characteristics,” and it is not the same as a somatic cell taken from a human body because it isn’t a part taken from another being. Nice try, though. By comparing it to an egg/chicken or acorn/tree, you’ve demonstrated a classic, unscientific outlook. Of course, an egg isn’t a chicken. Nor, is an ovum a human. An ovum is not the same as a zygote.
When does a human life begin, meltzerboy? At what point does an embryo/fetus become a human being? I’m not asking from a religious/philosophical perspective. This is science. If a biologist truly doesn’t believe that human life (i.e. a human being) begins at zygote, then they aren’t speaking scientifically.
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estesbob
Guest
Of course he/she is. What else could they be?
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rlg94086
Guest
Correct. It is a new human being with different DNA than either parent. That is why it is not the same as a somatic cell. As far as threads, I will post where I wish to post, thank you.
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