Be Warned & Believe what you Truly Will

[FurtherSuntime]

very simply

If parents in a little family take the children to a park for recreation and fresh air, the idea
is to promote an experience of natural enjoyment which will be extended into the hopeful adult lives

Of course lots of rules are in play in order to decrease selfishness which would directly
interfere with the fun time as well teach the children the value of consideration. A value which
must always be active in order to realize peace and happiness in adult life.

The children cannot have enjoyment in the day giving and sharing in the experience if
they believe they are doing so in whole purpose to promote the rewards, of peace and
happiness in adult life.

I believe in opinion we are designed to enjoy the realities of peace in the sharing and giving in each others lives. Joining ourselves to God in prayer touches our soul decreasing our fear in
the experience of life.

We then gain courage and fortitude adding extra grace, in order to avoid selfishness which would spoil the happiness for the day by directly blocking joyful charity.

I believe God would be sad if the experience in mans life through giving and sharing was not enhancing a cheerfulness in our lives. Sad again if the only reason we were unselfish was
for avoiding a consequence.

We must get back into the park of life avoiding attention to consequence… sharing and giving in the joy God would surely be very proud of in honor of his Son, Mary and all the Saints.

Honored as we honor each other in the mutual and holy agenda toward peace for all.

If there is anything someone would like to say to myself, can it please be in PM. If it is felt
that the thread must be in motion for an issue, we can discuss.

I will leave this area now but not without mentioning the words of Pope John Paul in opening dialog to an unbelievably huge youth audience in Montreal Canada, some years ago.

Be Happy:thumbsup:

 

[ahs]

Faith is rational. It is rational to have faith, it is without reason to not, have faith. Therefore
your rebut is entirely illogical.

In other words, since you can’t justify a Salvation without also realizing an existence of Hell to be saved from, you’ll just ignore the issue all together.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

In other words, since you can’t justify a Salvation without also realizing an existence of Hell to be saved from, you’ll just ignore the issue all together.

All final Judgment would certainly be pure in Divine fairness. We are Judged accordingly.
We are all responsible for what we are able to understand.

For myself, I like to exercise my faith for the obvious and healthy value in the faiths objectives, not in fear OR self gain in consequence. This way I am giving and sharing for value in true caring .The Story above speaks to this value. Thankyou & good day:thumbsup:
:

.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

All final Judgment would certainly be pure in Divine fairness. We are Judged accordingly.
We are all responsible for what we are able to understand.

For myself, I like to exercise my faith for the obvious and healthy value in the faiths objectives, not in fear OR self gain in consequence. This way I am giving and sharing for value in true caring .The Story above speaks to this value. Thankyou & good day:thumbsup:
:

.

But the concept of hell is NOT simply by reason of fear or self gain. It is a logical consequence to a choice.

We MUST be able to choose between accepting God or rejecting Him.

Since God is eternal, and since our life will be eternal, we must make an eternal choice. Once we enter eternity which by definition will be outside of the temporal construct of time, that choice is eternal and unchanging, as God is eternal and unchanging.

There is nothing to prove or even to postulate that a soul facing the ultimate choice is going to be ‘bound’ to accept God and goodness. In fact, throughout life for many reasons people reject good and choose evil, freely.

If they choose rejection and evil, then what does an eternal and unchanging God do?

He cannot permit heaven to those who reject heaven. That would be unfair to those in heaven AND unfair to those who reject it.

He cannot ‘change’ the free choice of a person. That would negate the concept of choice and be unfair also to those who chose to accept Him freely, for even if they ‘rejected’ Him they would not be permitted to keep that free choice of rejection.

He cannot make a ‘do-over’ like reincarnation. We get one soul and one body and one lifetime.

He cannot simply ‘destroy’ the person for our souls are immortal.

So what does God do? If He is rejected for eternity, what does a just God do?

He can’t ignore the problem and hope it goes away. He can’t force people to change without being untrue to the persons, to others, and ultimately to Himself. He can’t allow evil to have an equal and indeed a preferential status over good.

 

[ddarko]

Faith is rational. It is rational to have faith, it is without reason to not, have faith. Therefore
your rebut is entirely illogical.

It is through REASON that you know WHAT TO BELIEVE. But to have FAITH is not through reason. It is something you decide.

To give you an example, you can’t prove that you should have faith in God. BUT, from reason you can prove God exists. Those are two different things.

God Bless

 

[davidv]

If a women kills her child, whether its in the womb or not in the womb for convenience which
she feels will promote her biological existence, her act in doing so is an absolute preference
in the material . The act represents selfishness. It is clearly without God in any way .

Complete selfishness is the complete turning away from God. A despicable act against Love (God). In honoring the gift of free will, if this selfishness persists until death, hell is the result. Eternal separation from God. This is hell.

Total selfishness is the socially understood manifestation of fear, in biological survival.

What does society’s understanding have to do with the reality of hell.

Biological survival is what materialism is all about. When the biological body passé’s on,
there is no biological body, no material and therefore , no material will. Therefore no obstinate will in result of a material will.

To be honest, I don’t know what will happen in order to address the absolute selfish people.

Faithful catholics know that God honors that free choice to reject Him and he allows them to enter hell for eternity.

But I will say one thing…

If you had an aquarium with an ant colony, and a few of the ants were gobbling up the others food and interfering with the reasonable enjoyment and growing experience…

Would the ant collector remove the bad ants and preform an operation on the little bad ants,
pulling out there teeth, introduce toxic smoke intermittently over a long period of time in order
for the bad ants to get the message… No…then why would a God do this where there isn’t even the value of a message , if the smoke out is eternal?

Since ants have no free will, they cannot sin. Therefore your analogy is not very helpful.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

All final Judgment would certainly be pure in Divine fairness. We are Judged accordingly.
We are all responsible for what we are able to understand.

For myself, I like to exercise my faith for the obvious and healthy value in the faiths objectives, not in fear OR self gain in consequence. This way I am giving and sharing for value in true caring .The Story above speaks to this value. Thankyou & good day:thumbsup:
:

.

FurtherSuntime Hell is not taught by our Lord or His Church for the purpose you accuse it of being taught. You must understand that without love nothing is good in the eyes of God. This means Catholics recognize that the reason to not sin is because we love God and that we may love God perfectly. This is what motivates our actions and our choices. Not sinning for the sake of not going to Hell is not something that will save you in the end and Catholics do not believe it will. The reason why is because by doing this your basically telling God that you would sin if there was no punishment for sinning. That would be like telling your wife you would cheat on her if you knew you wouldn’t get caught for it. Where is the love in a statement like that? Nowhere and we understand this which is why we do not view the path to God in the way you accuse the Church of teaching it.

Hell is taught by our Lord and His Church for the purpose of showing people the seriousness of where a life without Love will lead you! Hell is the consequence of sin and sin is the act of opposing LOVE itself (God). A life without Love (God) will result in an eternity without Love, so Hell stresses the important role Love plays in our lives as God’s creatures (made in His image) and in relation to our final end, whether that be Heaven (where love is joined with Love for eternity) or Hell (where hate is banished from Loves presence for eternity). God who is Love itself is forced to banish hate from his presence because hate is contrary to His nature. God is owed this justice not just because reason demands it but also because Love has had to suffer the presence of you who have chosen and continues to choose hate despite the countless petitions Love has made to join you to Himself. Such a soul that opposes and rejects such a Love deserves an eternity without Him and then some!

 

[Shike]

Conventional hell belief stimulates war. History proves this point.

Do you wish to try to substantiate this claim?

If theres a possibility , theres a potential. If theres a potential for ill-will in man, man will have his ill-will. …Shike …there is a certain amount of given in all human language. As well this is the philosophy section. Reading your entries , I’m surprised .

You don’t seem to realize what your hasty conclusion (which included the word ‘possibly’) actually proves. It actually proves the opposite of your original claim. For if it is possible to have the belief in an eternal hell, as I do, and it is possible not to have ill-will, as you allow that I do not have, then it is inescapable that the belief in an eternal hell doesn’t cause ill-will; it must be something else!

You must be willing to be precise here.

You have mentioned that you hope that no one alive today or for the future will be going to hell.
Therefore the existence of hell would serve no purpose in your hope. You are hoping hell is not
necessary. Thats quite a bit different than believing hell is necessary. Hugely different. I am hoping the same thing, in fact , I am hoping hell was never necessary.

The existence of an eternal hell is logically necessary, that hell is populated is not necessary. Though we do know that hell is populated since the Church teaches so. Please distinguish between the existence and population of hell, it will go a long way to ironing out some of the difficulties you propose.

Ciao,
Michael

 

[Lucy_1]

If a person gives 10 bucks into the help the poor basket each week because he is following a program which would otherwise not be in effect…he or she is acting out of fear,NOT genuine compassion.
Genuine compassion is what Jesus is all about.

I agree that it is better to obey out of compassion, but it is better to obey out of fear than to sin.

Why are we supposed to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” if not because of the threat of hell?

I don’t LIKE hell. I wish there WEREN’T a hell, but my wishing doesn’t make it so.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,Sun

How much more does God,to be true to Himself need to be just ? All His words mean something or they do not ! We cannot presume to understand the future, and I think this is the crux of the matter. After all we are made in His image, and we require justice to be complete. :twocents::

God Bless
Onenow1

 

[FurtherSuntime]

All those who believe a hell exists are NOT in their lives, “giving it to God”

The calamity’s, sorrows injustice, and potential in mans selfishness are managed by a believer

through

GIVING IT TO GOD.PERIOD ( there is no handy violent clause for the obstinate sinner)

One cannot give the consequence of an unrepentant sinner to God, telling God what to do.

That is not giving it to God. Hell believers clearly think they can tell God what to do.

I can easily see this discussion is going to evolve into the nature of selfishness.

The selfishness of the unrepentant sinner is received by the believers, followed by greater
selfishness in the hopeful expectation of eternal torture.

Who’s the selfish one in the exchange? One can only have a belief in an unknown by
hoping the unknown is indeed a fact.

Selfishness emerges out of self fear in individual acceptance.

The believer and the obstinate are equally matched. Both wills are absorbed in self.

Giving it to God is NOT…telling God what to do with a maniac…its acceptance in the setting that God see’s fit for our sanctification. A sanctification which has nothing to do with KNOWING
or TELLING God what to do with the soul. Thats not…“giving it to God”

All defending endless torture should be ashamed

God is not stupid…everyone has been sufficiently warned. There are no exceptions or excuses. The entire thread is logical from page 1. We are responsible for what we understand.

If one.experience’s upset, joy, ect ect…one cannot be a hypocrite “giving it to God” and then turn around the SAME DAY…and REFUSE to free themselves from the ill will of revenge
telling God what to do .in the event of an obstinate sinners final torturous destiny.

That is NOT giving it to God.

That is CLEARLY giving it to the selfish ones. A rejection in the whole idea of faith.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So basically you still won’t tell us what God does with the unrepentant sinner who rejects Him for eternity, except to say that there cannot possibly be a hell. People can die rejecting God but then what?

Well, then WHAT does God do with the unrepentant sinner? Chapter and verse, or canon law, or citation from the Catechism, please, to support:

A. Your contention that there is no hell.
B. What happens to an unrepentant sinner after death.

Because you need to tell us what happens to the person who rejects God for eternity. We have already proven that in order for free will to exist, a person must have choice. That means that you cannot postulate that ‘all will choose God’ and in fact there is NOTHING in Christian teaching to support that all will, especially the words of Christ Himself.

Since choice must exist, that means there must exist a choice to choose evil. You seem to think this will not ever get chosen but give absolutely nothing to back up this opinion. If you think it, why do you think it and who supports you? Finally, do you at least agree that IF someone were to choose rejection of God eternally (even if you just can’t wrap your mind around it) then the consequence of that choice would HAVE TO BE HELL as the Church has taught it?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

So basically you still won’t tell us what God does with the unrepentant sinner who rejects Him for eternity, except to say that there cannot possibly be a hell. People can die rejecting God but then what?

Well, then WHAT does God do with the unrepentant sinner? Chapter and verse, or canon law, or citation from the Catechism, please, to support:

A. Your contention that there is no hell.
B. What happens to an unrepentant sinner after death.

Because you need to tell us what happens to the person who rejects God for eternity. We have already proven that in order for free will to exist, a person must have choice. That means that you cannot postulate that ‘all will choose God’ and in fact there is NOTHING in Christian teaching to support that all will, especially the words of Christ Himself.

Since choice must exist, that means there must exist a choice to choose evil. You seem to think this will not ever get chosen but give absolutely nothing to back up this opinion. If you think it, why do you think it and who supports you? Finally, do you at least agree that IF someone were to choose rejection of God eternally (even if you just can’t wrap your mind around it) then the consequence of that choice would HAVE TO BE HELL as the Church has
taught it?

If you read above , you will see that I believe human expectation in "what God judges for the soul of an unrepentant sinner"is not the “business” of another soul.

If I answer your question in full or believe I have a solution , I would be in fact telling God what to do, not unlike the hell believer.

Man cannot “give it to God” to judge and ALSO expect to know what the sentence would be.The thought denys the whole concept of faith in…giving it to God

 

[ddarko]

If you read above , you will see that I believe human expectation in "what God judges for the soul of an unrepentant sinner"is not the “business” of another soul.

If I answer your question in full or believe I have a solution , I would be in fact telling God what to do, not unlike the hell believer.

Man cannot “give it to God” to judge and ALSO expect to know what the sentence would be.The thought denys the whole concept of faith in…giving it to God

Ok calm down, take a step back, and let the following sink in.

You don’t have to tell God what to do. GOD has TOLD YOU what he is GOING TO DO TO THOSE WHO SIN AND REMAIN UNREPENTANT.

He is going to send them to eternal TORTURE i.e. HELL. Whether you like it or not, or whether your human brain thinks its logical or not, that’s whats going to happen. Who are YOU with a human brain to question the PERFECT INTELLECT and PERFECT LOVE and the PERFECT GOODNESS of GOD?

So just as much as it is ILLOGICAL and OUT OF PLACE for YOU to tell GOD what to do (as you yourself claim), it is also ILLOGICAL for you to sit there telling GOD that it is UNFAIR or ILLOGICAL for him to send people to hell.

Therefore, stop telling God what HE CAN’T DO when he has already told the world that he IS GOING TO DO IT.

It’s as simple as that.

God Bless

 

[Shike]

If you read above , you will see that I believe human expectation in "what God judges for the soul of an unrepentant sinner"is not the “business” of another soul.

If I answer your question in full or believe I have a solution , I would be in fact telling God what to do, not unlike the hell believer.

Man cannot “give it to God” to judge and ALSO expect to know what the sentence would be.The thought denys the whole concept of faith in…giving it to God

Please be sure to respond to my post #208.

You are almost right…

It is true that “what God judges for the soul of an unrepentant sinner” is not the “business” of another soul. But it is also true from revelation and reason that the unrepentant sinner will go to hell.

The main issue here that pertains to any ill-will is if the individual believer ever says that someone will go to hell. If someone ever says that, apart from Divine inspiration, they would be utterly wrong and misguided; they would be judging where they have no place to judge. That indeed would be ill-will!

Again, there is no essential connection between someone who believes in an eternal hell and the ill-will in judging that someone will go to hell–mainly because those who believe in hell shouldn’t judge! And to answer your claim (again) that belief in hell is somehow an ill-willed hope in the existence of hell and the torture of the damned… utterly not true. Basically, the “hope” (belief rather, not quite the same as hope here) that hell exists is predicated on God’s revelation of Himself through the Church and to the world. So it’s not like those who believe in hell believe in it for its own sake, but because that belief is predicated on the more fundamental trust in God (that God means what He says and is the most Trustworthy). And also, those who believe in hell because of logical consequence also don’t “hope” in hell because they know that it follows from the premises and must exist.

Again, I don’t know what group of misguided individuals got you frazzled by telling others that they would go to hell. They are wrong. Get over it and move along… but it doesn’t have any essential connection to those who take the Church and God’s revelation seriously who rightly believe in the existence of an eternal hell.

Ciao,
Michael

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If you read above , you will see that I believe human expectation in "what God judges for the soul of an unrepentant sinner"is not the “business” of another soul.

If I answer your question in full or believe I have a solution , I would be in fact telling God what to do, not unlike the hell believer.

Man cannot “give it to God” to judge and ALSO expect to know what the sentence would be.The thought denys the whole concept of faith in…giving it to God

No, I think you’re wrong. You see, I am not standing there and saying something like,
“Oh God, look, there is John. John committed a mortal sin and he’s not sorry, send him to hell Lord.”

But God has told us what He desires of us. . .and has made it quite clear that we have a choice. . .a choice between life (which is what we were created for) and which even though we are not worthy on our own merit, is freely offered to us as a gift. . .and which if we choose it will have the eternal consequence of eternity in heaven with God. . .

OR the alternative. . .the choice of death (which we were not created for but which is a consequence of our gift of free will and the logical consequence of being able to MAKE a choice. . .and which involves the REJECTION of God and the LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE of eternity in hell without God.

You see, FS, I am not going around making the judgment. I’m simply repeating what God has said.

If I say that Christ tells us that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and nobody comes to the Father except through Him (which is what He actually said). . .am I somehow condemning or judging the man or woman who says, “well, I personally don’t believe in the Christian God”. .

Of course I’m not. I’m repeating what Christ taught, and it is up to the individual to accept or reject the teachings. I’m not part of the equation. If people reject what I tell them Christ said, they aren’t rejecting ME, they’re rejecting HIM. I don’t take it personally.

I don’t know how you got disconnected between the personal or particular (say, John Doe’s judgment) and the simple fact that God has stated that WE WILL ALL BE JUDGED.

There is a hell and that’s all there is to it. I’m not inventing it, I’m not taking God’s place and deciding who goes there, I’m not ‘happy’ about it, I’m simply reporting what GOD has said of it.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Do you wish to try to substantiate this claim?

You don’t seem to realize what your hasty conclusion (which included the word ‘possibly’) actually proves. It actually proves the opposite of your original claim. For if it is possible to have the belief in an eternal hell, as I do, and it is possible not to have ill-will, as you allow that I do not have, then it is inescapable that the belief in an eternal hell doesn’t cause ill-will; it must be something else!

F Suntime

Belief in hell can and does generate ill-will towards mankind. An un-employed individual who
believes he will never get a job, can and does cause further un-employment. Its not the belief that he will never get a job that cause’s further un-employment, its the translation of the belief relative to “experience” Belief in hell can and does cause ill-will towards humanity in the …translation of the belief relative to “experience”

What we believe is evolving with experience in the becoming process of our individualism. Man is continuously becoming or living life in both experience, belief and an on-going moment to moment translation . A physical representation of our becoming process mirrors the reality of
what man is in mind and body. Smoking can and does cause disease. The translation of poison and experience can cause death. Smoking itself does not cause death in all application

Shike

The existence of an eternal hell is logically necessary, that hell is populated is not necessary. Though we do know that hell is populated since the Church teaches so. Please distinguish between the existence and population of hell, it will go a long way to ironing out some of the difficulties you propose.

F Suntime:

To say the existence of hell is logically necessary is to suggest that violence is logically necessary as a consequence.

Intentional affliction without progress in reason, defines violence.

Violence defines ill-will.

To say the existence in hell is logically necessary claims that ill-will is logically necessary, as violence defines ill-will.

To believe ill-will is logically necessary, is to know ill-will

To know ill-will as a necessary and logical consequence for others

is to harbor ill-will…

logically :

An attempt to excuse and support admitted ill-will.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

No, I think you’re wrong. You see, I am not standing there and saying something like,
“Oh God, look, there is John. John committed a mortal sin and he’s not sorry, send him to hell Lord.”

But God has told us what He desires of us. . .and has made it quite clear that we have a choice. . .a choice between life (which is what we were created for) and which even though we are not worthy on our own merit, is freely offered to us as a gift. . .and which if we choose it will have the eternal consequence of eternity in heaven with God. . .

OR the alternative. . .the choice of death (which we were not created for but which is a consequence of our gift of free will and the logical consequence of being able to MAKE a choice. . .and which involves the REJECTION of God and the LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE of eternity in hell without God.

You see, FS, I am not going around making the judgment. I’m simply repeating what God has said.

If I say that Christ tells us that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and nobody comes to the Father except through Him (which is what He actually said). . .am I somehow condemning or judging the man or woman who says, “well, I personally don’t believe in the Christian God”. .

Of course I’m not. I’m repeating what Christ taught, and it is up to the individual to accept or reject the teachings. I’m not part of the equation. If people reject what I tell them Christ said, they aren’t rejecting ME, they’re rejecting HIM. I don’t take it personally.

I don’t know how you got disconnected between the personal or particular (say, John Doe’s judgment) and the simple fact that God has stated that WE WILL ALL BE JUDGED.

There is a hell and that’s all there is to it. I’m not inventing it, I’m not taking God’s place and deciding who goes there, I’m not ‘happy’ about it, I’m simply reporting what GOD has said of it.

Thats too bad because we have had a full 3 weeks to look for evidence which would suggest
God designed and built an eternal torture chamber.

Its too bad because all the suggested evidence clearly shows the idea or word hell is a hellish
existence on earth for the selfish, or self absorbed individual.

Firming up the realities in Post 211 by myself:

If one.experience’s upset, joy, ect ect…one cannot be a hypocrite “giving it to God” and then turn around the SAME DAY…and REFUSE to free themselves from the ill will of revenge
telling God what to do .in the event of an obstinate sinners final destiny.

That is NOT giving it to God.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Please be sure to respond to my post #208.

You are almost right…

It is true that “what God judges for the soul of an unrepentant sinner” is not the “business” of another soul. But it is also true from revelation and reason that the unrepentant sinner will go to hell.

The main issue here that pertains to any ill-will is if the individual believer ever says that someone will go to hell. If someone ever says that, apart from Divine inspiration, they would be utterly wrong and misguided; they would be judging where they have no place to judge. That indeed would be ill-will!

Again, there is no essential connection between someone who believes in an eternal hell and the ill-will in judging that someone will go to hell–mainly because those who believe in hell shouldn’t judge! And to answer your claim (again) that belief in hell is somehow an ill-willed hope in the existence of hell and the torture of the damned… utterly not true. Basically, the “hope” (belief rather, not quite the same as hope here) that hell exists is predicated on God’s revelation of Himself through the Church and to the world. So it’s not like those who believe in hell believe in it for its own sake, but because that belief is predicated on the more fundamental trust in God (that God means what He says and is the most Trustworthy). And also, those who believe in hell because of logical consequence also don’t “hope” in hell because they know that it follows from the premises and must exist.

Again, I don’t know what group of misguided individuals got you frazzled by telling others that they would go to hell. They are wrong. Get over it and move along… but it doesn’t have any essential connection to those who take the Church and God’s revelation seriously who rightly believe in the existence of an eternal hell.

Ciao,
Michael

One can dilly dally around violence in order to suggest progress. The end result of which
comes to support the irrational intiative… of violence itself.

Violence is illogical. Any attempt to support reason in violence falls quickly into the gutter of
disordered reason where it belongs. Post #217

Reason cannot be used to support and excuse violence.

Torture on earth is without any defence in reason.

Eternal torture is without any defence in reason as well.

Torture is a violent measure. Torture defines violence.

 

[ddarko]

One can dilly dally around violence in order to suggest progress. The end result of which
comes to support the irrational intiative… of violence itself.

Violence is illogical. Any attempt to support reason in violence falls quickly into the gutter of
disordered reason where it belongs. Post #217

Reason cannot be used to support and excuse violence.

Torture on earth is without any defence in reason.

Eternal torture is without any defence in reason as well.

Torture is a violent measure. Torture defines violence.

Did you let this sink in?

You are arguing something that God has revealed to be true. People who are unrepentant, go to hell for eternity and their will be pain.

I suggest you believe what God says. If you don’t understand at the time, its not excuse for you to disbelieve. We are called to have FAITH in God’s revelation. Hell is one such divine revelation.

After all, who are you to think that you understand all this better than almighty God?

God Bless