Be Warned & Believe what you Truly Will

[FurtherSuntime]

F Suntime, re Tantum ergo

Well the text implies that the individuals being tossed into everlasting torment are followers of Christ yet didn’t follow the program due to ignorance. The culprits are expecting to obtain the Kingdom of God and are confused. How in the world is this reading a clear message ?

Its almost impossible not to imagine the huge array of expert Christian interpretation. With all the confusion in conscience and expectation in the story, I can’t see this to be a good discovery which offers recourse to my question. The short reference to the Kingdom of heaven I asked about seemed to be more of a natural serene setting, where clarity without multi-facet implications would rationally seem to have more meaning.

None the less you chose to answer a question with a question. There is simply nothing in result which would support the conventional hell idea in the words spoken by Jesus himself

Rather than at least wonder why, I’m asked to consider your findings.

There is a vast amount of data which allows for varied interpretation. I choose to go for the data
which shows an opening to a logical approach toward consequence. We differ. Many Catholic’s differ on many things. I believe if you look for eternal hell, it will be found… If you look for mature justice, it will also be found.

Theres no reason to repeat my thoughts in post above to Shike on principal, with respects to
our translation of the good belief system. They were not intended as a direct remark to any specific individual. The breakdown in need vrs requirement is a general fact in principle only. I think the approach in attention to responsible ethic is very important.and needs to be said.

Important to be individually aware of a real potential for an absence of whole good will, toward humanity… (if you’ve read through above posts)

Tantum ergo

As I said to you before, mortal (grave) sin has ETERNAL consequences because unrepeated (I stress UNREPENTED) mortal sin at death is the free choice to reject God for all time. Not for ‘a time’, but for all time and beyond. . .because the person is **still continuing to sin mortally for all time. That is why the consequence of punishment is everlasting. Note Jesus

F Suntime

You have your idea, tonyrey has his idea, I have my idea and theres probably millions of other
respectable Catholic idea’s.

Very very briefly and after a long day…(Opinion)

My understandings bring me to believe the soul in of itself, is an eternal item which works together with our brain. My thinking is God is Pure Reason . Our soul comprises an
eternal reality not in potential, but in fact.( A portion of eternal pure consciousness)

The soul, while the essence of self would be the irreducible self which represents not the biological self, but the true inner self.

We come to be “being in eternity”… and afterwords require the step by step biological necessity’s which ALLOW the soul or innocent pure reason… to be a “being in eternity”(pure consciousness).

Biological consciousness brought forward in order to attend and allow, the experience in life to…“happen”

The simplicity of the irreducible self “to be, in being”, is then managed by biological awareness

A person cannot be evil and in a state of grace, at once.

Variable less…more soul ( pure innocent eternal reason) Always variable every pasing moment ,showing dramatic change over time only.

The choices in experience through life managed by the biological self, either add or take away what would be more soul, or less soul. Never reducing to less than a drop of soul. How could it,
were human.

It would be said the biological self will, made the choices, it shall be held accountable .

Yes thats true, but for the “product” which represents the “choice” in choosing throughout life

The irreducible being within does not know fear… it IS and knows, it IS
It is the “you” in “YOU” without the name and without the breath.

Ive tied quite a bit in, how conscience works, what the disruption is. We are eternal beings.
We can wind up with an obstinate material ridiculousness , and what exactly is a material madness? It is the lack of pure innocent reason, the substance which comprises the soul.

Consequence’s. . I have considered two consequence’s.

1. The presentation of the reduced soul in light of Gods reality, is in shame for a period representing a God discerned amount of corrective humility. I cannot really see the process being destructive…“relative to God”
2. The presentation of the reduced soul finds itself a perfectly fair and reduced self realizing
   participation in eternity. A most embarrassing reality although generally a good fit.for all.

Ive connected quite a few dots, and believe it to be the usual approach among people who
think about putting two and two together. Things change, idea’s change…I think the crucial
idea is recognizing consequence to be a reality, but definitely not the motivation in mind for good works. The mind boggling fear attached to conventional hell would seem to be the
ridiculous flip side of the, Smiling Santa Claus idea.

I have no idea Tantum how you fix a material will to be recognized by “anything” once the
soul has left the biological corps.Sure its obstinate, but for material only, that the deal in the obstinate…the irreducible…theres no material to be obstinate or fundementally “for”

As well most knuckle head things people do, are weirdo’s looking for attention mental case’s are all over the place, emotional quacks. …Never, never believe people who are NUTS

lastly, I really couldn’t give two piece’s of baloney for coming back here. Nothing personal

…obviously, we’ll see…maybe a week or so…Peace:thumbsup:
.**

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Firstly I don’t talk or think about whats its name mentioned above. . It throws an odd slant on things Secondly I"m not a theologian, scientist or academically educated individual.I am a classical musician.

I have done zero research or preparation for this thread and have never engaged in a discussion about hell.
Nor had I any idea of the possible development .I simply thought I would express my feelings which were connected with God, man, and mans association with man.Reason being I can’t stand the whole idea of eternal torture

I fully believe in a mature & just Divine consequence and feel that insanity for insanity
which is what the world fully knows hell to be is strange relative to a God It may be said that evil man is strange and thats how it goes. I find that particular approach to be a sluggish approach toward the end product of Creation.

Thirdly, if hell is required in the invention of man, then glorified man is served by failed man forever in severe bodily pain.

It is then through the reality of failure and expected torment which allows man through God to flourish eternally, or suffer eternally…Sounds like more earthly experience in my books.

As mentioned, I believe in a Just , but fittingly just consequence which would have nothing to do with an eternal nightmare. My approach recognizes a progress to reason in all of Gods efforts in keeping with Pure Reason, which God would surely Be…

So the point is, I think your post is well intended but I don’t get why people post for effect without reading .

My post was not directed to you specifically because nothing you have posted is based off of any accurate teaching or knowledge regarding the subject of God’s relationship with man and man’s final end. You have written off Hell and its purpose without even researching it and therefore you have a problem with something you know absolutely nothing about. You believe hell is an unjust consequence but your position never takes into account the severity of sin and what sin is, the duty and love God is owed and the Justice God deserves. On the contrary you dismiss hell because of the mercy you presume you are entitled to.

God has formed you from nothing, loved you from eternity, given you everything you have needed and continue to need. You exist because He wills you to exist and if He was to stop willing your existence you would cease to exist. Every second you live is a gift from Him. Everything you have is a gift from Him! Your musical talent was given to you as a gift from Him. Your ability to move your fingers, eyes, mouth, and all things that happen are a gift from Him. The blood pumping through your veins and the beating or your heart are all gifts. The purpose of your very existence is to love, honor, and serve God. You were created to glorify God and when you sin you rob God of His glory and you do so using His gifts. And you have the audacity to say that these actions should be looked at as of little consequence?

To know that He gave you His only begotten Son to pay a debt He did not owe so that you could be joined to Him. To know that one drop of His blood can save countless worlds and yet He shed all of it for the world and for you the individual. To know that He suffered 33 years for your salvation and that He would have done this even if you were the only human in need of salvation. To know that he gives you the holy Mass so that you might actually partake in the merits of the same sacrifice on Calvary every day! To know that from the moment of your conception to the last breath you take He is next to you constantly knocking on the door of your heart asking you to let Him in so He can give you eternal peace and happiness in this life and also in the next. All this and so much more He gives and suffers for you and you think mortal sin which is to knowingly oppose such Love does not deserve the punishment of Hell?

Your “understanding” and “view” of man’s relationship with God is one sided and selfish.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

F Suntime, re Tantum ergo

Well the text implies that the individuals being tossed into everlasting torment are followers of Christ yet didn’t follow the program due to ignorance. The culprits are expecting to obtain the Kingdom of God and are confused. How in the world is this reading a clear message ?. . .
None the less you chose to answer a question with a question. There is simply nothing in result which would support the conventional hell idea in the words spoken by Jesus himself. Really? Why not? What has the Church taught about those words that you can say it does not support the conventional hell?

Rather than at least wonder why, I’m asked to consider your findings.

There is a vast amount of data which allows for varied interpretation. I choose to go for the data
which shows an opening to a logical approach toward consequence. We differ. Many Catholic’s differ on many things. I believe if you look for eternal hell, it will be found… If you look for mature justice, it will also be found.
. . .
Tantum ergo

As I said to you before, mortal (grave) sin has ETERNAL consequences because unrepeated (I stress UNREPENTED) mortal sin at death is the free choice to reject God for all time. Not for ‘a time’, but for all time and beyond. . .because the person is **still continuing to sin mortally for all time. That is why the consequence of punishment is everlasting. Note Jesus

F Suntime

You have your idea, tonyrey has his idea, I have my idea and theres probably millions of other
respectable Catholic idea’s.

Very very briefly and after a long day…(Opinion)

My understandings bring me to believe the soul in of itself, is an eternal item which works together with our brain. My thinking is God is Pure Reason . Our soul comprises an
eternal reality not in potential, but in fact.( A portion of eternal pure consciousness)

The soul, while the essence of self would be the irreducible self which represents not the biological self, but the true inner self.

We come to be “being in eternity”… and afterwords require the step by step biological necessity’s which ALLOW the soul or innocent pure reason… to be a “being in eternity”(pure consciousness).

Biological consciousness brought forward in order to attend and allow, the experience in life to…“happen”

The simplicity of the irreducible self “to be, in being”, is then managed by biological awareness

A person cannot be evil and in a state of grace, at once . . . Things change, idea’s change…I think the crucial
idea is recognizing consequence to be a reality, but definitely not the motivation in mind for good works. The mind boggling fear attached to conventional hell would seem to be the
ridiculous flip side of the, Smiling Santa Claus idea.

I have no idea Tantum how you fix a material will to be recognized by “anything” once the
soul has left the biological corps.Sure its obstinate, but for material only, that the deal in the obstinate…the irreducible…theres no material to be obstinate or fundementally “for”

As well most knuckle head things people do, are weirdo’s looking for attention mental case’s are all over the place, emotional quacks. …Never, never believe people who are NUTS

lastly, I really couldn’t give two piece’s of baloney for coming back here. Nothing personal

…obviously, we’ll see…maybe a week or so…Peace:thumbsup:

.**

So basically you’re saying you just have all these ‘feelings’ and assumptions of what you ‘presume’ is meaning and truth, and you have absolutely NOTHING to back up your opinion except for a lot of ‘speculative’ and non sequiter stream-of-consciousness- type speech.

NOTHING but your personal opinion. Nothing about what the Church teaches except to say that it’s all ‘opinions’. Why then should we go with the opinion of Further Suntime who can’t even bring forth any documentation for his words or any authority to have the ‘right answer’?

For all that you use words like ‘logic’ and ‘reason’, your sentences on the whole lack both. (I’m as comfortable reading James Joyce or Chaucer’s Middle English as I am reading extracts for the APA Call for Papers, for example, so it’s not that you’re being too ‘exalted’ for my piddly intellect. I’m saying, as somebody who knows a bit about literacy and philosophy, that you just aren’t expressing yourself coherently much of the time. I’m not sure if it’s because you won’t, or because you can’t, and I don’t mean this in a disparaging way but there is simply no ‘kinder’ way to put it.)

I wish you well but I truly believe you are tragically mistaken when you ignore clear Church teachings.

 

[Shike]

The absolute belief in a torturous hell subjects self to an unnecessary possible occasion of ill-will for humanity, in principal.

Okay, your reasoning doesn’t work.

For starters: a possible occasion of ill-will is far from a necessary occasion of ill-will. Therefore, merely given what you have said, one could believe in hell with no ill-will towards anyone. Although you probably have spent a lot of time writing your long response, this point alone would force you to have to rewrite it.

Next, hell exists now and there are some beings there now, the exact number and who I do not know. But notice that I have no ill-will towards anyone BECAUSE those who are living, or will live, I do not want them to go there. Please use me as your “concrete proof” because your abstracted view of this situation is faulty. See the following quote:

If we truly believe a hell of eternal torture exists, we truly believe there is a reason and a purpose for such a place. The only way we can truly believe there is a reason or purpose, is to suggest “knowing somehow”, that there will be people going there.

You say that I must suggest knowing that there “will be” people going there. Please realize that is not the case. We know people are there because of the past, not some projection into the future. For all I know, no one else may ever go there. Therefore, again, no ill-will.

However, all this talk about ill-will is missing the point. The truth is one thing, and how we react to the truth is another. But in order for us to react to the truth there has to be truth. It is a claim of the Catholic Church that hell (a place of eternal suffering) exists. In reality, hell either exists or it doesn’t. So which is it and why? Please leave any attempted psychology at the door, because it is missing the fundamental points.

And this is crucial to understand: the logical argument that uses free-will and the nature of God’s love shows that it is the possibility of going to hell that is necessary and not that there are people in hell (as the post I am quoting from shows that you do not grasp this point). But since we know that Satan and his angels have fallen and that Jesus says that “many” go down the path of destruction (whether that “many” means one or multiple persons), we know that there are beings in hell.

Please realize that your musings undermine the very reasons for why we have such a great Redeemer. If you eliminate hell, what exactly is Jesus saving us from? Especially if we’ll just learn eventually, I mean if you give us enough time and all.

ciao,
Michael

 

[FurtherSuntime]

So basically you’re saying you just have all these ‘feelings’ and assumptions of what you ‘presume’ is meaning and truth, and you have absolutely NOTHING to back up your opinion except for a lot of ‘speculative’ and non sequiter stream-of-consciousness- type speech.

NOTHING but your personal opinion. Nothing about what the Church teaches except to say that it’s all ‘opinions’. Why then should we go with the opinion of Further Suntime who can’t even bring forth any documentation for his words or any authority to have the ‘right answer’?

For all that you use words like ‘logic’ and ‘reason’, your sentences on the whole lack both. (I’m as comfortable reading James Joyce or Chaucer’s Middle English as I am reading extracts for the APA Call for Papers, for example, so it’s not that you’re being too ‘exalted’ for my piddly intellect. I’m saying, as somebody who knows a bit about literacy and philosophy, that you just aren’t expressing yourself coherently much of the time. I’m not sure if it’s because you won’t, or because you can’t, and I don’t mean this in a disparaging way but there is simply no ‘kinder’ way to put it.)

I wish you well but I truly believe you are tragically mistaken when you ignore clear Church teachings.

When ever you walk away from someone after a significant exchange, turn around unexpectedly
and catch a quick expression on the others un-expected facial countenance.

You will know whether you are drawing out a positive potencial for hope in the other, or a negative potencial.

I have clearly drawn out a negative potencial in the “appreciation of another in life” with this thread. This fact offers evidence to the well known global fact , that Bent Hell Belief is nuts)

In spite of being absolutely in compliance with questions, faith… ( of which is between myself , God and “approved” ones re… the faith itself,)… there remains a madness to effect a continuous material operation to frantically search for wanting infection. We know it is born out of the material fear and not genuine care. People KNOW genuine care.

In a little family setting as the children develope , the notion for extra approval can be expressed
resulting in the ignorant pasting of the well known black sheep idea. Regardless of belonging to the family, following the program, the insecure growing juveniles can be bent on looking for approval at another’s expense.Absolute hell believers are stuck in the mud in this obvious search to “point the finger” at everyone they can get there hands on.

The thread evidence’s all I need to know quite frankly. No wondering required. Without designing manipulatively, the earthly experience in this thread confirms with almost every post
made… the hell bent need , to search for the black sheep.

The need to point the finger of insecurity.

The life experience of this thread has nicely rewarded my process of thought.

Once I dis-appear you will be without your bone, and require another bone to chew on.

watch your behavior in thought , ask why all the time… If many were with marooned in a solitary cabin without conventional TV to satisfy the bent need to hate, the soul would slowly rehabilitate itself. ( 7 yrs gauranteed)

Never mind the mystics of the past, their circumstances were entirely different. I enjoy the writings thoroughly…common sense is important. Different time, society…theres an excuse
theres was also a far different exposure to violence and potencial for violence…you gotta use your brain man

.Full joy in life cannot be had for the endless search for a fix, on disdain for man
The greatest disrespect to God is without question, not using the brain.

I will check in for messages only and possibly return with a new comp and a new name a month or so from now. I will POSE…( hey doors open for sarcasm…go for it)… as an atheist, I will have a different personality. I will root out the insults to God, without admittedly believing in even a cosmic God. Theres only one individual in this forum who has the ability to suspect… of course it would not be anyone who would be interested in wasting time on a thread which has nothing to gain but for the lost, and the very noble words of very few. Very few who in fact are not fearful in loosing social acceptance
merely on a comp relationship. Wow., what a species… I could write the expected replies from
many here…why…? because replies are totally predictable. Therefore the self is not growing and simply a robot. Thats all, a robot. What in the world is creation to do…with a self determined
robot…

BTW…after I read my posts, I come back later and cannot believe I wrote what I wrote.
I need to read the notes, its like for the first time, Lovin it…I read mine only a good few times over. helps me lock on to the little …me…in the ME …thats who your dealing with…sorry
but there was a warning( edited in after thought)

Tantum…read the first 2-3…sentence’s…not interested in the totally predictable balance of thought…

over to the confusion…and go for it …its all thats here so you may as well enjoy
So long and Woe ( aint going to be back…) so whatever you write will be for your
well deserved popularity with…each other!!!..in keeping with what is also much required!!! Enjoy the seasrch fo a new restraunt

 

[Shike]

When ever you walk away from someone after a significant exchange, turn around unexpectedly…

You are in the philosophy subsection on this forum. Please, no ad hominems (and everywhere else I suppose). And since you are in the philosophy subsection, please note that explaining how someone came to a belief or the surrounding psychological state is not the same as evaluating the truth or falsity of said belief.

Besides, I don’t particularly appreciate being placed in a box that says “because I believe in hell I automatically have ill-will towards others and that I hate people”. Now this instead sounds like ill-will to me.

ciao,
Michael

 

[Tantum_ergo]

When ever you walk away from someone after a significant exchange, turn around unexpectedly
and catch a quick expression on the others un-expected facial countenance.

You will know whether you are drawing out a positive potencial for hope in the other, or a negative potencial.

I have clearly drawn out a negative potencial in the “appreciation of another in life” with this thread. This fact offers evidence to the well known global fact , that Bent Hell Belief is nuts)

In spite of being absolutely in compliance with questions, faith… ( of which is between myself , God and “approved” ones re… the faith itself,)… there remains a madness to effect a continuous material operation to frantically search for wanting infection. We know it is born out of the material fear and not genuine care. People KNOW genuine care. WAIT, so you’re saying that I can only believe in hell because I don’t CARE and I fear? Where is that in Church teaching?

In a little family setting as the children develope , the notion for extra approval can be expressed
resulting in the ignorant pasting of the well known black sheep idea. Regardless of belonging to the family, following the program, the insecure growing juveniles can be bent on looking for approval at another’s expense.Absolute hell believers are stuck in the mud in this obvious search to “point the finger” at everyone they can get there hands on.Speculation. So now people who believe in hell are insecure bullies too.

The thread evidence’s all I need to know quite frankly. No wondering required. Without designing manipulatively, the earthly experience in this thread confirms with almost every post
made… the hell bent need , to search for the black sheep. I am not searching for hell out of a need to put people there. I’m only saying what the Church says, and the Church only says what GOD TEACHES,

The need to point the finger of insecurity.

The life experience of this thread has nicely rewarded my process of thought. So you’re looking for reward, does that make you insecure?

Once I dis-appear you will be without your bone, and require another bone to chew on. And now we’re dogs too. . .

watch your behavior in thought , ask why all the time… If many were with marooned in a solitary cabin without conventional TV to satisfy the bent need to hate, the soul would slowly rehabilitate itself. ( 7 yrs gauranteed) I don’t hate. I’m not the one who is ‘damning’ people. I"m not trying to stick it to somebody.

Never mind the mystics of the past, their circumstances were entirely different. I enjoy the writings thoroughly…common sense is important. Different time, society…theres an excuse
theres was also a far different exposure to violence and potencial for violence…you gotta use your brain man, It’s Ma’am, thank you. Mystics, eh? Funny, I don’t recall Hildegard of Bingen or Julian of Norwich or Teresa of Avila or Catherine of Siena to name a few who support your ‘theory’.

.Full joy in life cannot be had for the endless search for a fix, on disdain for man
The greatest disrespect to God is without question, not using the brain.

I will check in for messages only and possibly return with a new comp and a new name a month or so from now. I will POSE…( hey doors open for sarcasm…go for it)… as an atheist, I will have a different personality. I will root out the insults to God, without admittedly believing in even a cosmic God. Theres only one individual in this forum who has the ability to suspect… of course it would not be anyone who would be interested in wasting time on a thread which has nothing to gain but for the lost, and the very noble words of very few. Very few who in fact are not fearful in loosing social acceptance
merely on a comp relationship. Wow., what a species… I could write the expected replies from
many here…why…? because replies are totally predictable. Therefore the self is not growing and simply a robot. Thats all, a robot. What in the world is creation to do…with a self determined
robot…

BTW…after I read my posts, I come back later and cannot believe I wrote what I wrote.
I need to read the notes, its like for the first time, Lovin it…I read mine only a good few times over. helps me lock on to the little …me…in the ME …thats who your dealing with…sorry
but there was a warning( edited in after thought)

Tantum…read the first 2-3…sentence’s…not interested in the totally predictable balance of thought…

over to the confusion…and go for it …its all thats here so you may as well enjoy
So long and Woe ( aint going to be back…) so whatever you write will be for your
well deserved popularity with…each other!!!..in keeping with what is also much required!!! Enjoy the seasrch fo a new restraunt

I’m not the one looking for ‘new’ things; I’m perfectly happy with God’s eternal teachings.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Shike;8205489]Okay, your reasoning doesn’t work.

For starters: a possible occasion of ill-will is far from a necessary occasion of ill-will. Therefore, merely given what you have said, one could believe in hell with no ill-will towards anyone. Although you probably have spent a lot of time writing your long response, this point alone would force you to have to rewrite it.

F Suntime
The logic is in front of the summation, the seggregation doesn’t seem right. Hard to comment
on 1/8 of a thought.The paper is rational and hugely leniant towards the weapon of guilt called hell…its so bad , over in Australia they had to make a law…no hell signs. My entry was not directed towards anyone as you know. But Shike…no rational person would dis-agree .

Shike
Next, hell exists now and there are some beings there now, the exact number and who I do not know. But notice that I have no ill-will towards anyone BECAUSE those who are living, or will live, I do not want them to go there. Please use me as your “concrete proof” because your abstracted view of this situation is faulty. See the following quote:

F Suntime

I believe you. This means that if we found out in the end hell was a simple parable of story telling you would not be dissapointed …but many would be dissapointed… Its totally un-avoidable…ill-will and guilt, hell…its a weapon for most. Why can’t you argue independent of self. ?

Shike
You say that I must suggest knowing that there “will be” people going there. Please realize that is not the case. We know people are there because of the past, not some projection into the future. For all I know, no one else may ever go there. Therefore, again, no ill-will.

F Suntime

I have no reason to dis-believe anything you say, but don’t forget , a weapon in the hands
of different men, creates all kinds of different results.This is my chief point.

Its a weapon that has always been used. As society dwindles in abortion, materialism, things seem worse not better…what about the sign carrying , picketing , your going to hell. How can that be ignored.as a tool or weapon which promotes handy use to guilt. Guilt is a very destructive and cruel tool. We have it all over this thread.
.
How does the hell idea promote unity, where there is existing conflict? It cannot. The idea of belief is on the other side of peace, where conflict exists.The believer is equiped with, hell to
the sinner. I don’t know (respectfully…how anything could be any more prone in adding to
the ill-will potencial in man.

Shike

However, all this talk about ill-will is missing the point. The truth is one thing, and how we react to the truth is another. But in order for us to react to the truth there has to be truth. It is a claim of the Catholic Church that hell (a place of eternal suffering) exists. In reality, hell either exists or it doesn’t. So which is it and why? Please leave any attempted psychology at the door, because it is missing the fundamental points.

F Suntime.

I have trouble looking at the 5 Billion yrs God fueled the sun with from this point forward. Was it a mistake…? 50,000 yrs ago man appears and got the ball rolling. RC, allows for the recognition. Five, or 25000 yrs from now, will leave no hell. Peace is peace. If the sun has its way, our view on consequence is history. We will look like neanderthalls along with
the thinking. All 5 minutes away from the same God we pray to now. Don’t forget, the whole picture must make sense along with the belief.

Shike
And this is crucial to understand: the logical argument that uses free-will and the nature of God’s love shows that it is the possibility of going to hell that is necessary and not that there are people in hell (as the post I am quoting from shows that you do not grasp this point). But since we know that Satan and his angels have fallen and that Jesus says that “many” go down the path of destruction (whether that “many” means one or multiple persons), we know that there are beings in hell.

Please realize that your musings undermine the very reasons for why we have such a great Redeemer. If you eliminate hell, what exactly is Jesus saving us from? Especially if we’ll just learn eventually, I mean if you give us enough time and all.

from ourselves and each other…you know that…I don’t see the faith requiring a hell booster for yourself…

ciao,
Michael

 

[FurtherSuntime]

You are in the philosophy subsection on this forum. Please, no ad hominems (and everywhere else I suppose). And since you are in the philosophy subsection, please note that explaining how someone came to a belief or the surrounding psychological state is not the same as evaluating the truth or falsity of said belief.

Besides, I don’t particularly appreciate being placed in a box that says “because I believe in hell I automatically have ill-will towards others and that I hate people”. Now this instead sounds like ill-will to me.

ciao,
Michael

Since you can’t follow the approach and assume incorrectly, the above is ignored without proper explanation…

you guys are absolutely amazing…I am argueing an idea which has nothing to do with the lives
that would appear to be causing the postings. I don’t even know what you all would look like

Ive never in this thread pointed anyone out.

what about all the signs and picketing, saying your going to hell…they had to ban it in Australia.
its all over the world…its not my fault Ive proved the point…ive got a few ideas for a few more

interesting threads

 

[FurtherSuntime]

My post was not directed to you specifically because nothing you have posted is based off of any accurate teaching or knowledge regarding the subject of God’s relationship with man and man’s final end. You have written off Hell and its purpose without even researching it and therefore you have a problem with something you know absolutely nothing about. You believe hell is an unjust consequence but your position never takes into account the severity of sin and what sin is, the duty and love God is owed and the Justice God deserves. On the contrary you dismiss hell because of the mercy you presume you are entitled to.

God has formed you from nothing, loved you from eternity, given you everything you have needed and continue to need. You exist because He wills you to exist and if He was to stop willing your existence you would cease to exist. Every second you live is a gift from Him. Everything you have is a gift from Him! Your musical talent was given to you as a gift from Him. Your ability to move your fingers, eyes, mouth, and all things that happen are a gift from Him. The blood pumping through your veins and the beating or your heart are all gifts. The purpose of your very existence is to love, honor, and serve God. You were created to glorify God and when you sin you rob God of His glory and you do so using His gifts. And you have the audacity to say that these actions should be looked at as of little consequence?

To know that He gave you His only begotten Son to pay a debt He did not owe so that you could be joined to Him. To know that one drop of His blood can save countless worlds and yet He shed all of it for the world and for you the individual. To know that He suffered 33 years for your salvation and that He would have done this even if you were the only human in need of salvation. To know that he gives you the holy Mass so that you might actually partake in the merits of the same sacrifice on Calvary every day! To know that from the moment of your conception to the last breath you take He is next to you constantly knocking on the door of your heart asking you to let Him in so He can give you eternal peace and happiness in this life and also in the next. All this and so much more He gives and suffers for you and you think mortal sin which is to knowingly oppose such Love does not deserve the punishment of Hell?

Your “understanding” and “view” of man’s relationship with God is one sided and selfish.

Please see # 61 and very importantly #66 Then PM me with your thoughts. Im interested in your opinion on this

 

[Shike]

Shike;8205489]
The logic is in front of the summation, the seggregation doesn’t seem right. Hard to comment on 1/8 of a thought.

I am taking into account your whole argument and pointing out your conclusion. Your conclusion has to matter. Your premises lead you to your conclusion. I am saying your conclusion doesn’t prove what you initially claimed. You throw the word “possibly” in there and it destroys your idea that ill-will must go hand-in-hand with belief in an eternal hell. Revise your conclusion (and therefore your argument) or just agree with me. It’s okay.

I have no reason to dis-believe anything you say, but don’t forget, a weapon in the hands of different men, creates all kinds of different results. This is my chief point.

You are now backpedaling. If that is your chief point than retract your conclusion that the belief in an eternal hell necessarily leads to ill-will towards others.

Five, or 25000 yrs from now, will leave no hell.

Please don’t twist what the word hell means. In the context here hell means a place of eternal suffering. The way you are using the word denies this. Just come out and say you do not believe hell exists, you won’t be burned at the stake.

And my comment that you are committing a grave fallacy in your reasoning holds for much of the last few of your posts. It’s sometimes called the genetic fallacy, that somehow commenting on the origin of an idea allows one to disregard the actual claims of the idea as not important or even false. I will drop the charge of ad hominem for now.

I do not disagree with your point that there are a lot of nuts out there that tote signs that say “you’re going to hell” and whatnot. But that only shows that they are wrong; it doesn’t show that hell doesn’t exist or that the belief in hell necessarily leads towards ill-will. You have a good point, but don’t be mislead in what that actually proves.

ciao,
Michael

 

[FurtherSuntime]

F Suntime

I am comforted to know we are clearly decent gentlemen and can argue apart from ridiculous
individual accusations.

As far as a locked in , sign on the dotted line idea affirming belief in hell or non-belief in hell, I believe the approach is only worthy and honorable if the answer clearly shows the
exact same growing, learning and understanding of our idea of God which a signature cannot
represent in an agreement to a" eternal chamber of torment" Therefore the noble signature
requires a footnote, in order to suggest a lively faith

Our active faith uncovers more about God. Our active faith should uncover a greater understanding in everything
.
Therefore it would seem forward to satisfy our responsibility only, in allowing “room” for growth
apart from a locked in eternal torment which past present and future man is “expected” to occupy .We clearly see this in unfortunately very few. I don’t believe its logical or wise to sign on the dotted line, without reading what is being signed. In fact , one cannot in good faith sign. In a good and lively interior life, one can only sign to be mindful of serious consequence for ones life. This fulfills the beliefs request in the highest possible way.

A person can logically only agree to believing in the concept of consequence, if not , it is not possible to learn, grow and understand God more fully, the only evidence of an active faith. These findings are crucial to the responsibility in the teachings of the Church, and require professional attention .
We know that understood and fully believed subjectivity to a conventional hell…
…in active motion where conflict is in motion. can do nothing toward peace. Just like the picket signs , the weapon of ill-will, your going to hell is clearly in play

In evidence, the faith has had 2000 long bloody years to give it a go…and results clearly show a
deterioration in peace where conventional hell is implicated and believed. The middle east is an embarrassment for it, as well continuing historical factual realities. We are not getting at peace where conflict is present. We will always have conflict…so “something has to go”

Conventional hell belief stimulates war. History proves this point. Its impossible to argue.
It reflects the sign picketing on a collective national level. Hell belief in the wrong hands is a weapon . Guilt implied, recoursive action…justified.

If God uses hell to enforce and threaten, why can’t I says the momentum of the Country, Lynch mob, individual. Conventional belief shows an example of no final mercy in the whole composition of a “position”

Its not the idea of consequence, its the absence of a growing consideration for mature Justice which rationally shows, a dead faith.

The problem is the conclusive translation in final destiny of the worst kind the imagination can in madness… foster.

The World will never find peace , unless the boorish understanding of consequence to life
is attended to with mature Justice. It is logical. Something must be done. Logically man will have his peace in universal time.Something will be done.The only question is…

Will it be the Catholic Church, or is the faith not inspiring the wisdom?

Shike;8207994]I am taking into account your whole argument and pointing out your conclusion. Your conclusion has to matter. Your premises lead you to your conclusion. I am saying your conclusion doesn’t prove what you initially claimed. You throw the word “possibly” in there and it destroys your idea that ill-will must go hand-in-hand with belief in an eternal hell. Revise your conclusion (and therefore your argument) or just agree with me. It’s okay.

F Suntime
If theres a possibility , theres a potential. If theres a potential for ill-will in man, man will have his ill-will. …Shike …there is a certain amount of given in all human language. As well this is the philosophy section. Reading your entries , I’m surprised .

Shike:
You are now backpedaling. If that is your chief point than retract your conclusion that the belief in an eternal hell necessarily leads to ill-will toward others.

F Suntime:

Here is the comment you are referring to: F Suntime comment

I have no reason to dis-believe anything you say, but don’t forget, a weapon in the hands of different men, creates all kinds of different results. This is my chief point.

F Suntime continuing …as you can plainly see from above, the ill-will toward others which
I believe conventional hell belief unquestionably stimulates, refers to “others” not you. You have mentioned that you hope that no one alive today or for the future will be going to hell.
Therefore the existence of hell would serve no purpose in your hope. You are hoping hell is not
necessary. Thats quite a bit different than believing hell is necessary. Hugely different. I am hoping the same thing, in fact , I am hoping hell was never necessary. If hell was never necessary, there would be no reason to believe God would have it for man, and is a parable for
teaching the importance of consequence…like all of the teachings really are. This fact allows
the Bible teachings to sustain itself in universal time. The whole picture must be seriously in view. Seriously in view for any faith which is interested in the truths of its faith within Creation

The rest of your comment is relevant and affected by above and therefore dis-missed

 

[Tantum_ergo]

F Suntime

I am comforted to know we are clearly decent gentlemen and can argue apart from ridiculous
individual accusations.

As far as a locked in , sign on the dotted line idea affirming belief in hell or non-belief in hell, I believe the approach is only worthy and honorable if the answer clearly shows the
exact same growing, learning and understanding of our idea of God which a signature cannot
represent in an agreement to a" eternal chamber of torment" Therefore the noble signature
requires a footnote, in order to suggest a lively faith

Our active faith uncovers more about God. Our active faith should uncover a greater understanding in everything
.
Therefore it would seem forward to satisfy our responsibility only, in allowing “room” for growth
apart from a locked in eternal torment which past present and future man is “expected” to occupy .We clearly see this in unfortunately very few. I don’t believe its logical or wise to sign on the dotted line, without reading what is being signed. In fact , one cannot in good faith sign. In a good and lively interior life, one can only sign to be mindful of serious consequence for ones life. This fulfills the beliefs request in the highest possible way.

A person can logically only agree to believing in the concept of consequence, if not , it is not possible to learn, grow and understand God more fully, the only evidence of an active faith. These findings are crucial to the responsibility in the teachings of the Church, and require professional attention .
We know that understood and fully believed subjectivity to a conventional hell…
…in active motion where conflict is in motion. can do nothing toward peace. Just like the picket signs , the weapon of ill-will, your going to hell is clearly in play

In evidence, the faith has had 2000 long bloody years to give it a go…and results clearly show a
deterioration in peace where conventional hell is implicated and believed. The middle east is an embarrassment for it, as well continuing historical factual realities. We are not getting at peace where conflict is present. We will always have conflict…so “something has to go”

Conventional hell belief stimulates war. History proves this point. Its impossible to argue.
It reflects the sign picketing on a collective national level. Hell belief in the wrong hands is a weapon . Guilt implied, recoursive action…justified.

If God uses hell to enforce and threaten, why can’t I says the momentum of the Country, Lynch mob, individual. Conventional belief shows an example of no final mercy in the whole composition of a “position”

Its not the idea of consequence, its the absence of a growing consideration for mature Justice which rationally shows, a dead faith.

The problem is the conclusive translation in final destiny of the worst kind the imagination can in madness… foster.

The World will never find peace , unless the boorish understanding of consequence to life
is attended to with mature Justice. It is logical. Something must be done. Logically man will have his peace in universal time.Something will be done.The only question is…

Will it be the Catholic Church, or is the faith not inspiring the wisdom?

Shike;8207994]I am taking into account your whole argument and pointing out your conclusion. Your conclusion has to matter. Your premises lead you to your conclusion. I am saying your conclusion doesn’t prove what you initially claimed. You throw the word “possibly” in there and it destroys your idea that ill-will must go hand-in-hand with belief in an eternal hell. Revise your conclusion (and therefore your argument) or just agree with me. It’s okay.

F Suntime
If theres a possibility , theres a potential. If theres a potential for ill-will in man, man will have his ill-will. …Shike …there is a certain amount of given in all human language. As well this is the philosophy section. Reading your entries , I’m surprised .

Shike:
You are now backpedaling. If that is your chief point than retract your conclusion that the belief in an eternal hell necessarily leads to ill-will toward others.

F Suntime:

Here is the comment you are referring to: F Suntime comment

I have no reason to dis-believe anything you say, but don’t forget, a weapon in the hands of different men, creates all kinds of different results. This is my chief point.

F Suntime continuing …as you can plainly see from above, the ill-will toward others which
I believe conventional hell belief unquestionably stimulates, refers to “others” not you. You have mentioned that you hope that no one alive today or for the future will be going to hell.
Therefore the existence of hell would serve no purpose in your hope. You are hoping hell is not
necessary. Thats quite a bit different than believing hell is necessary. Hugely different. I am hoping the same thing, in fact , I am hoping hell was never necessary. If hell was never necessary, there would be no reason to believe God would have it for man, and is a parable for
teaching the importance of consequence…like all of the teachings really are. This fact allows
the Bible teachings to sustain itself in universal time. The whole picture must be seriously in view. Seriously in view for any faith which is interested in the truths of its faith within Creation

The rest of your comment is relevant and affected by above and therefore dis-missed

But you still haven’t answered the question:

If a man or woman freely chooses for reject God for eternity, what does God do with this person?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think the thought of hell is terrifying and I truly hope that nobody ever, ever rejects God for eternity.

But the fact remains that it is a possibility. It must be a possibility. For if there were no possibility that humanity could freely reject God for eternity, there would be no real free choice to ACCEPT God.

There would only be mindless roboticism. No true love but a predestined, ordained, ‘despite ourselves’ compulsion.

Since the possibility for hell must exist, then it must also be just and good. Hell might be the absence of God but that does not make it the Zoroastrian kind of ‘anti-god’ or antigood locked in an egalitarian struggle.

Hell is a consequence, then, of rejection of good.

What does God with the person who, freely and knowingly, rejects good–and thus rejects God–forever? What just plan does God have for such a person?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I would also like to see a proof that beliefs in ‘conventional hell’ have been a cause of a ‘deterioration in peace’ and a ‘stimulation for war’.

The earliest Christians believed in conventional hell. Were they ‘warlike’ or disturbers of the peace?

Wars predate Christianity. Societies which do not believe in ‘conventional hell’ are equally ‘warlike’ if not more so than given Christian societies in history.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

[Tantum ergo;8209743]I think the thought of hell is terrifying and I truly hope that nobody ever, ever rejects God for eternity.

But the fact remains that it is a possibility. It must be a possibility. For if there were no possibility that humanity could freely reject God for eternity, there would be no real free choice to ACCEPT God.

F Suntime

This is an interesting thought. I don’t understand how a soul can reject God for eternity when theres nothing materialy available to reject God with,for eternity. The obstinate will is in fact the personification of the absolute material will.

Man knows its easy to accept God for the spirit inside, whats difficult to accept at times, is
the difficult growing process and enviroment , God has situated ourselves in , to reach santification.

The free choice man is equiped with in order to do so, requires hope in Gods idea in Creation. Hope in the nature of progress to reason for the experience of life itself.

I don’t know how a power boost to above introducing hell, adds to the idea of progress to reason Progress to reason, is our only hope in the reason we commonly use in the first cause
justification of a rational belief. I feel this answers quite well and am interested to see if I’m missing something, which includes the use ( respecfully) of reason in address.

Tantum ergo

What does God with the person who, freely and knowingly, rejects good–and thus rejects God–forever? What just plan does God have for such a person?

F Suntime

I gave an answer to this the other day…but I guess there is a kind of universal demand for consequence which you are after with respects to the unrepentant sinner and other degrees of immoral disposition.

The following does not acutely explain as the other day, nor is it offered independently as a whimsical suggestion, it is merely a thought…

If theres one thing man knows , it is the fact that something not appreciated is lost. But we know the loss does not leave man without, forever. The experience allows man to grow. We grow in reason by reasoning the lack of value to what is taken for granted in order to exist in a way which promotes individualism.

If an unrepentant sinner is fully aware of natural dissaters, he is appreciating the value of creation in order to go about his or her material will. This is only one example of the many realities the material will assumes and enjoys in an indirect but appreciative way , the circumstance of his place in Creation.

The problem is the sinner decides to enjoy life for the material only, and is a menace to God and society for it.

Material enjoyment is the objective and is enjoyed , I suppose.

He still appreciates the idea of Creation, otherwise the enjoyment could not be had, as it is Gods doing.

All in reality we know looses what is not appreciated, regardless of acknowledgement.

If a tree is diseased and a menace to the health of other vegetation, it dies breakdowns and
is introduced into the soil adding nutritive value .The disease is necessary for the process.
of the whole garden. It adds texture and makes all possible by the force’s of opposing interest which enables a momentum, toward force. Our momentum has value only in opposing the force evil, not the consequence of evil. To do so would corrupt the value in choice , offering
illogical reason, for living our life and accepting the difficulties which come along.

All that is not appreciated is lost and returns to progress, in reason. I have trouble fitting in
eternal torture. On the other page I mention a thought or two which show consequence…or what I can can call , my attention to serious but Just and mature consequence, Above is an extra thought re Tantums thinking

I have to go tend to something…back tom night.

 

[ahs]

Progress to reason, is our only hope in the reason we commonly use in the first cause
justification of a rational belief.

I think someone has pointed this out a couple times already…I can’t remember to be honest. But the error in this statement is that you deny Faith if your only hope is “reason”.

Christ called us to have Faith. When he healed the sick, he asked, “do you believe”, not “can you reason a cause”. He spoke of us “with little faith” and “if you had faith the size of a mustard seed”. He never mentioned anything about us needing to reason things out in our minds…He called us to have Faith. And then He established His Church and gave Her Authority on Earth proclaim the Truth, part of which is the existence of eternal damnation, hell. And He calls us to have Faith and believe in His Truths.

You don’t have to be able to reason your way to a belief in hell in order for it to exist.

But if you insist on reason alone, then reason with me on this: If there is no hell, what’s the point of being a Christian? What did Christ come for, and make the ultimate Sacrifice for, if there was not a hell to save us from?

-ahs

 

[davidv]

[snip}
This is an interesting thought. I don’t understand how a soul can reject God for eternity when theres nothing materialy available to reject God with,for eternity. The obstinate will is in fact the personification of the absolute material will.
{snip}

You may not understand it but it happens everyday, in all parts of the world. Women kill their innocent children while still in the womb. This is total rejection of God. If not repented of, what is God to do?
[/quote]

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I think someone has pointed this out a couple times already…I can’t remember to be honest. But the error in this statement is that you deny Faith if your only hope is “reason”.

Christ called us to have Faith. When he healed the sick, he asked, “do you believe”, not “can you reason a cause”. He spoke of us “with little faith” and “if you had faith the size of a mustard seed”. He never mentioned anything about us needing to reason things out in our minds…He called us to have Faith. And then He established His Church and gave Her Authority on Earth proclaim the Truth, part of which is the existence of eternal damnation, hell. And He calls us to have Faith and believe in His Truths.

You don’t have to be able to reason your way to a belief in hell in order for it to exist.

But if you insist on reason alone, then reason with me on this: If there is no hell, what’s the point of being a Christian? What did Christ come for, and make the ultimate Sacrifice for, if there was not a hell to save us from?

-ahs

Faith is rational. It is rational to have faith, it is without reason to not, have faith. Therefore
your rebut is entirely illogical.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

You may not understand it but it happens everyday, in all parts of the world. Women kill their innocent children while still in the womb. This is total rejection of God. If not repented of, what is God to do?

If a women kills her child, whether its in the womb or not in the womb for convenience which
she feels will promote her biological existence, her act in doing so is an absolute preference
in the material . The act represents selfishness. It is clearly without God in any way .

Total selfishness is the socially understood manifestation of fear, in biological survival.

Biological survival is what materialism is all about. When the biological body passé’s on,
there is no biological body, no material and therefore , no material will. Therefore no obstinate will in result of a material will.

To be honest, I don’t know what will happen in order to address the absolute selfish people.

But I will say one thing…

If you had an aquarium with an ant colony, and a few of the ants were gobbling up the others food and interfering with the reasonable enjoyment and growing experience…

Would the ant collector remove the bad ants and preform an operation on the little bad ants,
pulling out there teeth, introduce toxic smoke intermittently over a long period of time in order
for the bad ants to get the message… No…then why would a God do this where there isn’t even the value of a message , if the smoke out is eternal?