Be Warned & Believe what you Truly Will

[Shike]

None of the talk of ill-will applies to someone who believes in an eternal hell.

Why?

Because we aren’t the Judge! Only God is the Judge. So whatever you, FurtherSuntime may wish to believe about your friend who you find evil… you shouldn’t go around thinking that he will go to hell. Nor would someone who believes in hell go around thinking that your friend would go to hell.

Leave the judging to God, please.

 

[onenow1]

But Jesus is not just a man, He is God. And Jesus spoke of Hell. He didn’t SUGGEST that people would wind up there, He didn’t say, “Oh and I’ll just give a SUGGESTION that there will be undying fire and wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Logically, if there were a choice between listening to the words of fallible human beings on a subject, and listening to the word of an omnipotent, omniscient God on a subject, the one who would (logically) be most trustworthy and knowledgable about the subject would be God.

So He’s spoken. . .and I believe Him.

Hi, Tantum, If I may add, God’s ways are so far above our ways . The book of Job attests to this.
One more thing : Eve listined to satan he slyly used the truth in God’s words.> surley you will not die.

God Bless all

 

[slywakka250]

This is discussion is truly fascinating.

In all discussions about hell, I am shocked how casually it is discussed. I know people often feel it necessary to hold back their language a bit in an attempt to be charitable, and so not to come across as too fire and brimstone.

But IF in fact hell is real, a literal eternal torture chamber of the most unbearable kind, then we need to talk about hell all the time, in full detail, especially if you believe that even one person has even the smallest chance of going to such a place.

The fate of eternal damnation is unfathomably horrific, words could not even begin to describe the absolute terror, suffering, extreme loneliness, despair, wailing, and utter pain which must be felt by the damned, and this extreme agony will NEVER end for them.

I find hell really quite impossible to fully believe in. the pain is so bad is so serious, there is no way anyone would choose to sit in the torture chamber for all eternity. And if they do choose to sit there, can I presume that they do so because they actually enjoy the torture??

If it is the case that torture can be tolerable, then maybe hell isn’t so bad?? if hell is as bad as it’s made out to be, why do people stay there once they do get there?

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

New Age falsehoods such as this are contrary to The Catholic Faith

All that is contrary to the Catholic Church is rooted in ill-will.

I’m glad you admit it.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Ok buddy, here is the DEAL.

1. The Church has definitively decided on the matter of hell.
2. Whether you can wrap your mind around it or not, if the Church has decided THEN YOU MUST give FULL ASSENT.
3. Your action to NOT believe and go around telling others that they should NOT believe because it is unreasonable CAN GET YOU IN TO HELL.

So the simple solutions is

Believe what the Church teaches, carry your cross of not being able to wrap your mind around it at the moment and do everything you can to NOT end up in HELL.

God Bless

Didn’t read. Not reading or replying to your posts as mentioned the other day due to your manner ect ect. …Obviously

 

[FurtherSuntime]

So really you’re saying that you just can’t believe it. . .and so you’re going to ignore the actual Jesus from Scripture saying that Hell exists. . .in favor of your own make-believe Jesus.

Sorry. I know from Scripture and tradition (thank you St. Paul) that even if a person claims to be coming from God but teaches a ‘different gospel’ that I am to reject that wrong gospel and cling to the truth. And I do. I had hoped that you would have taken some time to reflect and pray and be guided to the truth, but instead you seem to be clinging firmly to your invented god and your non-Catholic teachings.

Of course you’re entitled to believe what you choose in the sense that nobody is going to FORCE you into Catholicism. That being said, you CLAIM to be Catholic. And that changes the playing field, because as a Catholic you are obligated to accept CATHOLIC teachings and NOT (while presenting yourself as a Catholic) to come out and state totally disparate and wrong teachings and claim that YOU and THEY are real, and the Catholic teachings which many have been at pains to provide you are false.

They are not false. Your teachings are at best error, at worst stubbornly verging on heretical, and that is very troubling to us as your fellow Catholics.

Ive asked several questions from you in this thread and you skirt around them. If you do not answer this question, your posts will be ignored.by myself. Ive answered all your questions which were on topic, except for items which may be relative but would require another thread
as they are individual themes.

One of many questions:to Tantum ergo not answered :

Jesus said " we must BECOME as children to enter the kingdom of God"

Jesus did not say…If we ARE NOT as children, we will be without God for ETERNITY.

Question : why not? Why wasn’t the wording in the second line above used by Jesus?

Theres no point if the words are twisted
in order to produce a result which is individually favored.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ive asked several questions from you in this thread and you skirt around them. If you do not answer this question, your posts will be ignored.by myself. Ive answered all your questions which were on topic, except for items which may be relative but would require another thread
as they are individual themes.

One of many questions:to Tantum ergo not answered :

Jesus said " we must BECOME as children to enter the kingdom of God"

Jesus did not say…If we ARE NOT as children, we will be without God for ETERNITY.

Question : why not? Why wasn’t the wording in the second line above used by Jesus?

Theres no point if the words are twisted
in order to produce a result which is individually favored.

I don’t recall your asking me to answer this question but I’d be glad to answer.

“Become as children” to enter the Kingdom of God means to submit ourselves to the Lord as children. What is notable about children? “Little” children, anyway, do not (or should not) talk back or claim that they can do anything they want, thank you. LIttle children must have things done for them. . .oh they will help but little children know they are not doing things on their own. Little children love their mommy and daddy even though they don’t understand. Little children. . and I am going to highlight this for you. . .little children TRUST their parents to care for them even if what the parents are doing is scary, or even appears to HURT.

A little child going to the doctor’s office is told by mom, “This is going to hurt but you need this shot to protect you.” And the child trusts the mom that this hurtful shot will indeed be more than just pain, will actually protect the child from disease. A little child is not going to understand how the vaccine reacts or all the science behind it. . .not because the child is incapable of learning but because he is too young just then. . .and also because at the very core of the matter is that even the greatest scientists cannot explain how or why this planet has just the right mixtures of elements, just the right plants, just the right ‘timing’ that has made us able to fight disease. . .first as primitive people using plants, now as ‘modern’ men using the science behind those plants to develop synthetics to work harder, stronger and faster. . .

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Offering your description of why children are pleasant and obviously pleasant to humanity and
God is well known.

You have not answered the question asking why the “phrasing” Jesus used was,

…"We are to becomes as children to enter the Kingdom of God "…

                   instead of

…We will not enter the Kingdom , if we are not as children, for eternity…

If the consequence of not becoming as children would result in an endless and brutally
torturous existence,

it is entirely illogical to suggest that Jesus, the Son of our Loving God, would not
advise, “that it is so.within the phrasing”…so easily and naturally available

Any Christian would need a serious answer in order to imagine a Hell by description truly
exists. in an eternal consequence, for the soul… I think thats an awfully good question The reason is that twisting words around to suite individual needs is NOT what its all about
.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

None of the talk of ill-will applies to someone who believes in an eternal hell.

Why?

Because we aren’t the Judge! Only God is the Judge. So whatever you, FurtherSuntime may wish to believe about your friend who you find evil… you shouldn’t go around thinking that he will go to hell. Nor would someone who believes in hell go around thinking that your friend would go to hell.

Leave the judging to God, please.

Again shike youv’e raised a very important matter. Before the end of the day I will attend to your
interesting entry. Its raining here and Ive got a bit of a day ahead.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Offering your description of why children are pleasant and obviously pleasant to humanity and
God is well known.

You have not answered the question asking why the “phrasing” Jesus used was,

…"We are to becomes as children to enter the Kingdom of God "…

instead of

…We will not enter the Kingdom , if we are not as children, for eternity…

If the consequence of not becoming as children would result in an endless and brutally
torturous existence,

it is entirely illogical to suggest that Jesus, the Son of our Loving God, would not
advise, “that it is so.within the phrasing”…so easily and naturally available

Any Christian would need a serious answer in order to imagine a Hell by description truly
exists. in an eternal consequence, for the soul… I think thats an awfully good question The reason is that twisting words around to suite individual needs is NOT what its all about
.

Twisting words to suit individual needs is not what I–or the Catholic Church–does.

Are you trying to argue that God will take those who reject Him and drop them in the Fountain of Youth until they are back to infancy and then accept them into heaven??

Seriously, I don’t know WHAT you are trying to say. Why do you keep ignoring what Jesus Himself said about hell?
Matthew 25:31
And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. [46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

You really can’t get much clearer than this, you know. This is Jesus speaking, speaking of His return for the Last Judgment. . .what do YOU say that He is saying?

 

[ahs]

While you are on the topic of things that get skirted around and never answered:

You still never addressed this from Tantum ergo:

"For a person who freely and knowingly gravely offends God (mortal sin), unrepented at death. . .just exactly what do you say God ‘does’ with this person, and please bring forth after your statement the teaching documents from the church which support this as authentic Catholic teaching."

You gave a lengthy philosophical side-step around it, but you never actually answered it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Note, Further Suntime, that Jesus is speaking here very clearly. He had AMPLE opportunity, did He not, to say instead of ‘everlasting punishment’ something on the order of, “Punishment until you’re sorry, then up to heaven you come”, or even “punishment until God forgives you”. No, Jesus says EVERLASTING punishment. Jesus, “meek and mild”, who loves little children and looks on us as children. . . gives us the due warning that one would expect of a loving parent. . .that actions have CONSEQUENCES.

As I said to you before, mortal (grave) sin has ETERNAL consequences because unrepented (I stress UNREPENTED) mortal sin at death is the free choice to reject God for all time. Not for ‘a time’, but for all time and beyond. . .because the person is **still continuing to sin mortally for all time. That is why the consequence of punishment is everlasting. Note Jesus isn’t telling these people how awful they are, He is simply noting how they sinned gravely --and they know it too–and that the judgment of God is that they are permitted to depart from Him, and part of the consequence of that departure is that they will suffer torment. No one who rejects God can do anything BUT suffer torment because that is a symptom, if you will, of rejection. Just as a person with measles will break out with spots as a symptom and consequence of the disease, a person who rejects God will suffer. Freely and willingly. **

And I’m still waiting for you to tell me clearly, with the appropriate Scriptural citations and Church documents, what God is going to do with those who, at the time of death, persist in rejecting Him.

WHAT WILL GOD DO? Simple question. The Church has answered it. . .do you agree with Her or do you reject Her?

 

[ddarko]

Didn’t read. Not reading or replying to your posts as mentioned the other day due to your manner ect ect. …Obviously

I see.

Well, I never asked for a reply honestly. I was just giving you some advice on your “hell” problem.

God Bless

 

[tonyrey]

This is discussion is truly fascinating.

In all discussions about hell, I am shocked how casually it is discussed. I know people often feel it necessary to hold back their language a bit in an attempt to be charitable, and so not to come across as too fire and brimstone.

But IF in fact hell is real, a literal eternal torture chamber of the most unbearable kind, then we need to talk about hell all the time, in full detail, especially if you believe that even one person has even the smallest chance of going to such a place.

The fate of eternal damnation is unfathomably horrific, words could not even begin to describe the absolute terror, suffering, extreme loneliness, despair, wailing, and utter pain which must be felt by the damned, and this extreme agony will NEVER end for them.

I find hell really quite impossible to fully believe in. the pain is so bad is so serious, there is no way anyone would choose to sit in the torture chamber for all eternity. And if they do choose to sit there, can I presume that they do so because they actually enjoy the torture??

If it is the case that torture can be tolerable, then maybe hell isn’t so bad?? if hell is as bad as it’s made out to be, why do people stay there once they do get there?

Jesus used Semitic hyperbole to impress upon everyone the horrific reality of evil which has led to incalculable suffering, injustice and destruction throughout the world from the dawn of history. Hell is not a place but a self-inflicted state of isolation and misery on the part of those who are responsible for atrocities, feel no compunction and choose to exist for themselves in a kingdom of their own making in which they have absolute power and total independence. They are willing to pay the price because - as you implied - hell has its compensations…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Since hell was made for Satan and his angels then those who go there can likewise be compared to Satan. The same Satan that opposed God face to face. Now if your saying that Satan does not deserve Hell for what he has done then God is not a Just God. There is a poem on CAF called The Reprobate which I think you shoud ponder on.

The Reprobate
By Heliotropium

I toil and I labor,
For me there is no rest.
As I lived in life,
The same do I live after death.

Hardened is my heart,
Shallow are the waters of my soul.
My existence I despise,
My shame I cannot let go!

Cursing the Heavens,
I mock it’s Sacredness!
I hide from The Light,
He reveals my hopelessness!

Alas there is nothing left,
No pleasures and no wealth!
Only an eternity to be spent,
A torment to myself!

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Just getting in from work.

We will be coming to order this evening. All questions will be answered.

I’m not rushing, having dinner like a regular person and patiently answering every entry
above.

Tantum ergo’s query is most important and will be answered last for reasons which will be clear.

I have no idea what peoples comfortable evening hours are, I’m in N/A however sometimes
wind up staying up late. Looks like this could be on the later side for many.

As well , I think the answers will be issued as they are ready. Maybe breaks in between and so forth so thanks ahead for the patience.

( entries offered in between answering questions will be ignored due to a respect for order in
subject at hand)

 

[FurtherSuntime]

While you are on the topic of things that get skirted around and never answered:

You still never addressed this from Tantum ergo:

"For a person who freely and knowingly gravely offends God (mortal sin), unrepentant at death. . .just exactly what do you say God ‘does’ with this person, and please bring forth after your statement the teaching documents from the church which support this as authentic Catholic teaching."

You gave a lengthy philosophical side-step around it, but you never actually answered it.

F Suntime

As you can see in my above post the question Tantum ergo puts forward to myself will be answered .It might be late, but it will be answered before dawn.

ahs

"For a person who freely and knowingly gravely offends God (mortal sin), unrepentant at death. . .just exactly what do you say God ‘does’ with this person, and please bring forth after your statement the teaching documents from the church which support this as authentic Catholic teaching."

F Suntime

Firstly and respectfully there is an issue to resolve. The issue is “how” a member of the Catholic
Faith translates the teachings to himself and then subsequently to others. Please read post
#156 in order to capture the essence, of the argument.

Secondly, I see fellow member tonyrey has made an entry. In tonyrey’s entry he shares his
understanding of consequence for an unrepentant sinner, here it is.

tonyrey:

Hell is not a place but a self-inflicted state of isolation and misery on the part of those who are responsible for atrocities, feel no compunction and choose to exist for themselves in a kingdom of their own making in which they have absolute power and total independence. They are willing to pay the price because - as you implied - hell has its compensations…

F Suntime, continuing reply to ahs…

Because the Church directs through teachings a belief in a hell which is described as an eternal location of torment ( severe bodily suffering) , a member must first consider the possibility in an “act of faith” as there are no known absolute concrete facts for such a place.

If anything at all was available factually supporting the reality of this chamber of eternal torment , every newspaper on the planet would cover the story.

The faithful apply “faith” in order to believe a non-factual happening in the location of hell. In order to do so, the member must understand what he is asked to believe.Otherwise
there would be no virtue in faith.

If we “knew” hell existed as described, there would be no reason for ones faith. I think we can add the full understanding of the Kingdom of God in the equation.Again newspapers would be all over the news in anything at all regarding a factual reality, of Heaven.

We must know what hell is… in order to apply faith… to believe a hell exists

Regardless of the title teaching , a non-factual circumstance… is in fact… a suggestion.

The mind can only do three things with a non-factual suggestion.

1. Attend to being mindful of the possibility.
2. Dismiss the possibility, resulting in consequence of this “specific” infraction only
3. Fully assume, the non-factual circumstance is a reality.

In respectful opinion ,tonyrey’s description of hell is obviously in keeping with his faith as he is
very mindful of the consequence of an un-repentant sinner. .

The obligation to be mindful is represented and is honorably in evidence through faith by means of exploration into further possibilities.

Possible detail of this non factual location in exacting greater understanding.

The interest to enhance understanding is clearly in motion. The purpose as well notion of a Divine consequence is applied including idea’s which are in keeping with the theme in hell,
however a little different or unique.

Point being, efforts to consider a mature approach to Justice relative to a Loving God, are in keeping with the faiths expectations in the mindful processing of consideration… of a non-factual circumstance.

So…with regards to the documentation asked about ahs, I don’t see what your getting at.
Maybe above will help.

To truly believe in the understood hell of torment & eternity , a non-factual circumstance… though it is a reality… would be to truly hope for the non factual location to be, a reality.

The mind cannot believe a non concrete suggestion is a reality, unless it desires so.

Our virtue hope for this evening, will be in our Lord Jesus.

.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

None of the talk of ill-will applies to someone who believes in an eternal hell.

Why?

Because we aren’t the Judge! Only God is the Judge. So whatever you, FurtherSuntime may wish to believe about your friend who you find evil… you shouldn’t go around thinking that he will go to hell. Nor would someone who believes in hell go around thinking that your friend would go to hell.

Leave the judging to God, please.

If we truly believe a hell of eternal torture exists, we truly believe there is a reason and a purpose for such a place. The only way we can truly believe there is a reason or purpose, is to suggest “knowing somehow”, that there will be people going there.

The only way to suggest “knowing” people are going there is to experience, witness or understand individuals who are understood to require a Justice in consequence which resorts to severe bodily pain, forever.

If we feel that we know, have witnessed or understand individuals who deserve torture for infinity, it directly interferes with our comprehension of others through a need to satisfy the requirement, of the alleged reality of hell.

The fate or torturous consequence in assumed justice is a required reality, by one who insists ,
conventional hell is a reality.

Individual fate is the only possible applicant and is subject to the expectations in need, of the alleged eternal location. Someone somewhere must fill the shoes, its required in order to satisfy the need to believe such a thing
.
The absolute belief of conventional hell interferes with our association with mankind as some quantity of people are required and expected to go… to eternal hell. Otherwise the insistence
of the hell location is real, would be illogical. The absolute belief requires occupants

Above interferes with a hopeful understanding in man through “need” to satisfy the alleged reality.The need to “satisfy the need for eternal hell” presents a possible occasion for categorization of known man to fill the shoes, of expected need for eternal hell.

Above wedges the will between whole good will for humanity, and the required need for
a quantity of individual occupancy, in the torturous eternity of hell.

Since theres an obstruction to whole good will for humanity, ill-will toward humanity in principal is granted in order to satisfy the expected nature, of the required occupant .

The more we absolutely believe and accept in an abstract non-concrete suggestion, the more we will try to justify and satisfy the conviction, in keeping with the pledged absolute acceptance.
in the insistence, that eternal hell truly exists.

Reason being, the mind cannot reference a reality in factual evidence to substantiate the suggested known belief. The mind in consequence searches for confirmation or ratification of its pledge in order to confirm stability, in mind.

The only candidate for ratification is known man within humanity. The candidate cannot be an imaginary individual, the belief is NOT imaginary The absolute belief in a torturous hell subjects self to an unnecessary possible occasion of ill-will for humanity, in principal.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Since hell was made for Satan and his angels then those who go there can likewise be compared to Satan. The same Satan that opposed God face to face. Now if your saying that Satan does not deserve Hell for what he has done then God is not a Just God. There is a poem on CAF called The Reprobate which I think you shoud ponder on.

The Reprobate
By Heliotropium

I toil and I labor,
For me there is no rest.
As I lived in life,
The same do I live after death.

Hardened is my heart,
Shallow are the waters of my soul.
My existence I despise,
My shame I cannot let go!

Cursing the Heavens,
I mock it’s Sacredness!
I hide from The Light,
He reveals my hopelessness!

Alas there is nothing left,
No pleasures and no wealth!
Only an eternity to be spent,
A torment to myself!

Firstly I don’t talk or think about whats its name mentioned above. . It throws an odd slant on things Secondly I"m not a theologian, scientist or academically educated individual.I am a classical musician.

I have done zero research or preparation for this thread and have never engaged in a discussion about hell.
Nor had I any idea of the possible development .I simply thought I would express my feelings which were connected with God, man, and mans association with man.Reason being I can’t stand the whole idea of eternal torture

I fully believe in a mature & just Divine consequence and feel that insanity for insanity
which is what the world fully knows hell to be is strange relative to a God It may be said that evil man is strange and thats how it goes. I find that particular approach to be a sluggish approach toward the end product of Creation.

Thirdly, if hell is required in the invention of man, then glorified man is served by failed man forever in severe bodily pain.

It is then through the reality of failure and expected torment which allows man through God to flourish eternally, or suffer eternally…Sounds like more earthly experience in my books.

As mentioned, I believe in a Just , but fittingly just consequence which would have nothing to do with an eternal nightmare. My approach recognizes a progress to reason in all of Gods efforts in keeping with Pure Reason, which God would surely Be…

So the point is, I think your post is well intended but I don’t get why people post for effect without reading .

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Jesus used Semitic hyperbole to impress upon everyone the horrific reality of evil which has led to incalculable suffering, injustice and destruction throughout the world from the dawn of history. Hell is not a place but a self-inflicted state of isolation and misery on the part of those who are responsible for atrocities, feel no compunction and choose to exist for themselves in a kingdom of their own making in which they have absolute power and total independence. They are willing to pay the price because - as you implied - hell has its compensations…

A more logical approach to consequence is most honorable in my opinion. Always enjoy thinking on new ideas and will include above in thought. The perspective is appreciated from this desk to be sure