Be Warned & Believe what you Truly Will

[FurtherSuntime]

And also from “This Rock”, FS, what happens regarding prayer for those who are in hell.

Question: Can I have a Mass said for the repose of the soul of my Protestant friend? And what happens to my prayers if he’s in heaven already or, God forbid, hell?

”
A:
You can, and should, have a Mass said for your Protestant friend, or anyone for that matter.

If the one we are praying for is in heaven, he is not in need of our prayers. **If he is in hell, no prayer can benefit him. But because the Church does not presume to know if any particular soul is damned, we are not to judge but to pray. The rest is up to God. Only God judges the heart (**cf. 1 Sm 16:7).

This is contradictory.

Why SHOULD we pray for the Protestant friends soul if he is in heaven…? Answer: he does not need your prayers.

F Suntime Why SHOULD we pray for the soul in hell. ? Answer: you cannot, nothing will help him.

Then why “SHOULD” we say the prayer at all?

This is not the year 1242

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I have to agree with Tantum, there was nothing Emotional in his/her statements. I think you are really stretching this argument somehow to get a victory to your warped idea of Hell.

God Bless

Thanks (and it’s she ).

I’m not sure if Further is from the U.S. but I would imagine that even other countries do not rely on New Advent (which is nearly 100 years old, helpful but certainly not totally complete)as the sole source of teaching authority; I mean, isn’t the Catechism world wide? I do hope he reads it though and that it helps him understand.

 

[ddarko]

This is contradictory.

Why SHOULD we pray for the Protestant friends soul if he is in heaven…? Answer: he does not need your prayers.

F Suntime Why SHOULD we pray for the soul in hell. ? Answer: you cannot, nothing will help him.

Then why “SHOULD” we say the prayer at all?

This is not the year 1242

Ok I am not sure how you are confusing these things.

The point by Tantum is that you PRAY for ALL because YOU DON’T KNOW where they went i.e. Purgatory, Heaven or Hell.

If they went to hell, the game is up. That is why the Church only prays for those in Purgatory. There are never prayers that say “let us pray for the damned”.

God Bless

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is contradictory.

Why SHOULD we pray for the Protestant friends soul if he is in heaven…? Answer: he does not need your prayers.

F Suntime Why SHOULD we pray for the soul in hell. ? Answer: you cannot, nothing will help him.

Then why “SHOULD” we say the prayer at all?

This is not the year 1242

Your point being? Are we not supposed to pray at all times? Does GOD Himself ‘need’ our prayers? Answer: He does NOT, yet we pray anyway.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Excuse me?
The Catholic Encyclopedia is not the SOLE SOURCE for answers.

Did you somehow NOT NOTICE that the actual SOURCE OF REFERENCE was The CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH???

Since when do YOU presume to ‘ignore’ the Catechism of the Catholic Church??? That is a demonstrated inability to face facts, logic, AND the teachings of the Church.

Of course you’re not here to argue with emotional nonsense. . .but then again, since my POST is NOT emotional nonsense, YOUR little statement is nothing but an ad hominem.

You guys don’t want to address a major contradiction regarding the idea of time, prayer, the soul, & destiny.
If all you want to do is skirt around it , thats fine but I’m not into playing games. If there are contradictory items in the Catechism with respects to time prayer ect in the Encyclopedia, bring them forward .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Remember again, this is official teaching from the Catholic Church, taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Para. 1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 Jn 3:14-15). Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren (Cf. Mt 25:31-46). To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” Para. 1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire” (Cf. DS 76: 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12). The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Your point being? Are we not supposed to pray at all times? Does GOD Himself ‘need’ our prayers? Answer: He does NOT, yet we pray anyway.

No way…thats a cop out and I’m not buying it for one nano second period

 

[FurtherSuntime]

New Age falsehoods such as this are contrary to The Catholic Faith

All that is contrary to the Catholic Church is rooted in ill-will.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You guys don’t want to address a major contradiction regarding the idea of time, prayer, the soul, & destiny.
If all you want to do is skirt around it , thats fine but I’m not into playing games. If there are contradictory items in the Catechism with respects to time prayer ect in the Encyclopedia, bring them forward .

A. Heaven and hell are not in temporal time.
B. The ‘contradiction’ you raise is raised with two misconceptions: You apply a prayer in our ‘temporal’ time and assume that hell and heaven are likewise temporal. You also assume that a prayer for something which cannot be granted is somehow ‘wasted’. Both of these are contrary to Christian teaching.
C. Catholicism does not teach double predestination.
D. You’re also changing horses. First you say hell can’t exist because it would be illogical of God to be a big meanie, now you’re saying it can’t exist because if a person prays for somebody already in hell, since the prayer won’t be applied to the person it means the person can’t be in hell otherwise the prayer would be wasted.

But not all prayers are answered by God with YES.

I am glad to know you aren’t into playing games. Neither am I. I am quite serious. But you need to explain a little more clearly what you are trying to say.

And you never really did answer this. . . and please do it in a couple of sentences.

For a person who freely and knowingly gravely offends God (mortal sin), unrepented at death. . .just exactly what do you think God ‘does’ with this person, and please bring forth after your statement the teaching documents from the church which support this as authentic Catholic teaching.

Now for MY part, I stick with the Church. I say that a person who freely and knowlingly gravely offends God, unrepented at death, condemns himself or herself to hell for eternity (which is not measured in TIME), and that hell exists, is eternal separation from God, with the consequence of eternal torment, and that this is God’s just and merciful will.

This is supported by the above references, both from New Advent and from the Catechism of the Catholic Church as supported by plain Scriptural evidence.

 

[ddarko]

All that is contrary to the Catholic Church is rooted in ill-will.

So you have “ill-will”?

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

A. Heaven and hell are not in temporal time.
B. The ‘contradiction’ you raise is raised with two misconceptions: You apply a prayer in our ‘temporal’ time and assume that hell and heaven are likewise temporal. You also assume that a prayer for something which cannot be granted is somehow ‘wasted’. Both of these are contrary to Christian teaching.
C. Catholicism does not teach double predestination.
D. You’re also changing horses. First you say hell can’t exist because it would be illogical of God to be a big meanie, now you’re saying it can’t exist because if a person prays for somebody already in hell, since the prayer won’t be applied to the person it means the person can’t be in hell otherwise the prayer would be wasted.

But not all prayers are answered by God with YES.

Well said

God Bless

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No way…thats a cop out and I’m not buying it for one nano second period

Really? So I’m to accept that on your say-so without any reference as to WHY you’re saying it? How exactly is it a cop out to note the fact that God does not ‘need’ our prayers yet we pray anyway? Where exactly in that statement am I wrong and where is the proof you can give from the Church that I am wrong?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

So you have “ill-will”?

God Bless

Oh I forgot…

Everything the Church doesn’t like is things to do with having ill-will. So we gotta avoid ill-will…like the desire of an eternal torure chamber pre supposing an idi amin God:thumbsup:

 

[ddarko]

Oh I forgot…

Everything the Church doesn’t like is things to do with having ill-will. So we gotta avoid ill-will…like the desire of an eternal torure chamber pre supposing an idi amin God:thumbsup:

But then would you not end up building “ill-will” against the church by disagreeing with them ?

God Bless

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Really? So I’m to accept that on your say-so without any reference as to WHY you’re saying it? How exactly is it a cop out to note the fact that God does not ‘need’ our prayers yet we pray anyway? Where exactly in that statement am I wrong and where is the proof you can give from the Church that I am wrong?

I’ll go to the other post you entered in a second…

Its not my say at all…the text directs that we should pray for those specific souls…but the
explanation refuses to advance a fruitful reason, in fact it explains that the prayers in this specific area are highly recommended yet worthless relative to the specific purpose of the prayers all together…THAT is a TOTAL Contradiction.

These contradictions are not my fault, I did not compose the writings.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Further Suntime:

Before I say bon soir (good night), please answer the following, and please limit it to two to three sentences.

For a person who freely and knowingly gravely offends God (mortal sin), unrepented at death. . .just exactly what do you say God ‘does’ with this person, and please bring forth after your statement the teaching documents from the church which support this as authentic Catholic teaching.

Now for MY part, I stick with the Church. I say that a person who freely and knowlingly gravely offends God, unrepented at death, condemns himself or herself to hell for eternity (which is not measured in TIME), and that hell exists, is eternal separation from God, with the consequence of eternal torment, and that this is God’s just and merciful will.

This is supported by the above references, both from New Advent and from the Catechism of the Catholic Church as supported by plain Scriptural evidence.

Please do not continue with the tired old ‘idi amin God’ and ‘torture chamber’ stereotypes which are used as a play to the emotions, and please stick with current authoritative Church documents. Thank you.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

But then would you not end up building “ill-will” against the church by disagreeing with them ?

God Bless

good one…btw…can you descibe what you think the soul is… exactly? Whats up with your definition

I gotta get to tantums post

 

[ddarko]

good one…btw…can you descibe what you think the soul is… exactly? Whats up with your definition

I gotta get to tantums post

That’s a bizarre jump. We are talking of ill-will are we not? So you agree that it is indeed ill-will for you to disagree with the Church?

God Bless

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I will be back tom

 

[FurtherSuntime]

That’s a bizarre jump. We are talking of ill-will are we not? So you agree that it is indeed ill-will for you to disagree with the Church?

God Bless

What is ill-will by your definition?