Beck: Help us restore traditional American values

[gilliam]

Of course not. I used MATT as a point of clarification to your earlier comment. Glenn Beck says pray with the door open and God says close the door. I do not mean to extend any of this to the greater idea of the Mass.

If I am not mistaken, Beck is saying, let people know you are a person of faith to strengthen others in their faith.
And he said to them, “Is a lamp brought in to be put under a bushel, or under a bed, and not on a stand? For there is nothing hid, except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret, except to come to light. If any man has ears to hear, let him hear.” And he said to them, “Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.” Mark 4:21-25

Let me ask you something. Do you think 500,000 people gathered in the name of the Christian god or the Mormon god? Do you think the deities are the same? Did Christ ever say, “As you are now, so I once was. As I am, so you may become?”, and then promise to make His people like gods, holding dominion over their own earths? What entity ever promised his followers that they could be like God? That entity is on the business end of Mr. Beck’s prayers. It isn’t on mine.

The Catholic Church teaches that Catholics, Jews and Muslims all pray to the same God. Those religous and clergy on stage, I think, were saying the same thing. We would differ with the Mormons I think, but Beck and those on stage were definately trying to tell everyone in the crowd that we all worship the same God. I don’t think anyone can speak for the crowd.

I suggest that he could be saying that. “Look at me, kids! See how holy I am?” Why else would you pray with the door open if not to be seen doing it?

Maybe to get others return founding principles to government?

I’ve raised my issues with Beck on this thread precisely because the God he wants us to start thinking about may not be the same one we pray to. I also have issues with Palin for leaving the Church to pursue her own brand of Christianity, but that’s another issue.

Someone else brought up if he was on a Mormon mission with this or not. So far I don’t see it. It looks more like he is on a mission to get people to go back to their roots, be thay Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Islamic or Mormon. At least that seemed to be the message he was giving.

 

[gilliam]

I’ll talk to my friend and co-worker tomorrow She and two of our friends went. We talked about it. We both expected something that was somewhat religion-oriented because the whole focus is that our country has turned it’s back on God. We talked about the Founding Fathers and their view that all of our rights were descended from God and God alone, And we discussed how our legislators seem to forget that they are not God. They have no right to dictate but to listen. They are supposed to be one of us who we send to DC to represent us. We both agreed that that is what the focus of the rally would probably be. That said, I can’t wait to talk to her, and a few others who went, to see what their impressions were. I’ll get a better sense at our next Ind/Arm patriots meeting. In watching on UStream, there was more religious fervor than I expected. I was not particularly bothered by it. I missed a good chunk of it because we had other plans. I

I’ll post my friends impressions when I talk to them.

sneaks

I think a lot of people are pretty fed up with the “elites” in this nation telling the rest of us what to believe and what not to believe. The straw that broke the camel’s back for me was when Pelosi started lecturing Bishops on abortion rights!

 

[seekerz]

I think a lot of people are pretty fed up with the “elites” in this nation telling the rest of us what to believe and what not to believe. The straw that broke the camel’s back for me was when Pelosi started lecturing Bishops on abortion rights!

So we swap political elites for talking head elites…hmmm. We’d better be listening very carefully then to make sure there isn’t in fact cooperation among the elites…

The heady blend of politics and religion is a tool most useful for psychological manipulation of the masses…oops, sorry that’s a leftist term - I mean people of course.

 

[CathFaith1]

I think a lot of people are pretty fed up with the “elites” in this nation telling the rest of us what to believe and what not to believe. The straw that broke the camel’s back for me was when Pelosi started lecturing Bishops on abortion rights!

 

[Catherine_D]

So we swap political elites for talking head elites…hmmm. We’d better be listening very carefully then to make sure there isn’t in fact cooperation among the elites…

The heady blend of politics and religion is a tool most useful for psychological manipulation of the masses…oops, sorry that’s a leftist term - I mean people of course.

Coordination of message is fairly ubiquitous. No matter what the topic, the “talking heads”, regardless of their political persuasion, are often word-for-word “on point”. It’s not a right thing or a left thing, it’s just a thing.

Perhaps the key would be to ferret out information independently, and not depend on anyone else to tell you how you should think about any given subject?

 

[mary_bobo]

Gilliam, we’re getting off base a bit. Let me clarify where I stand.

A.

1, Catholics recite prayers in public every time we go to mass. Praying in public was taught by Jesus, not to mention our tradition of the Divine Office, so I don’t understand bashing it.
I’m tackling that one as MATT 6, 5-6:

[5] "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Not sure if your saying the Mass is wong and the Divine Office is wrong.

Of course not. I used MATT as a point of clarification to your earlier comment. Glenn Beck says pray with the door open and God says close the door. I do not mean to extend any of this to the greater idea of the Mass.

B,

And rather than bat Gospel quotes back and forth (like where two or more are gathered [say 500,000] together in my name, I am there…) For this isn’t the forum to debate whether Catholics know how to pray or not. Let’s just assume our 2,000 year tradition is correct and we are praying the way our Lord wants us to. If you disagree, please take it to Apologetics.

Let me ask you something. Do you think 500,000 people gathered in the name of the Christian god or the Mormon god? Do you think the deities are the same? Did Christ ever say, “As you are now, so I once was. As I am, so you may become?”, and then promise to make His people like gods, holding dominion over their own earths? What entity ever promised his followers that they could be like God? That entity is on the business end of Mr. Beck’s prayers. It isn’t on mine.

C.

Anyway, no one is saying, “hey look how holy I am” which, I think Jesus was talking about. Beck certainly wasn’t saying that. At least I didn’t hear it. He came across as a seeker, not a spiritual leader.

I suggest that he could be saying that. “Look at me, kids! See how holy I am?” Why else would you pray with the door open if not to be seen doing it?

E.

A side note for you to consider if you are, in fact, going after the Divine Office, even hermits in the Roman Catholic tradition say the Divine Office either communally or at the same time their community does. The prayer is a common prayer. But that is better discussed in Apologetics.

I’m not going after the Divine Office.

F.

That Beck was an alcoholic and found solace in the LDS chuch is a failure of his local parish, not of Beck, IMHO, so I don’t see bashing him for that either.

1. Mr. Beck would be the first to disagree with you that individual salvation depends on collective salvation. His parish did not fail him. He made a decision to follow Mormonism as an individual, and made an individual commitment to practice the spiritual principles of AA in all of his affairs.

I think others have already addressed the fact that he probably was not a practicing Catholic at the time and was raised in another religion. So this is mute.

Maybe not. I’d like to see Beck talk about Catholicism in his own words.

G.

As for whether we should not trust Beck because he is Mormon. I am not going to him for spiritual direction. But if he wants to get America to start thinking about God more, and try to return to Natural Law. I’ll support that.

Personally, I don’t know how much Beck knows about what he is trying to do at this point. What today proved is that there seems to be a need out there for something. What I heard from Beck today is that we should turn to God, not him, not Palin, not Obama, not the government for a moral compass. As a Catholic, that makes sense.

I’ve raised my issues with Beck on this thread precisely because the God he wants us to start thinking about may not be the same one we pray to. I also have issues with Palin for leaving the Church to pursue her own brand of Christianity, but that’s another issue.

Anyway, thanks for the debate. I’m off this thread now.

I am no fan of Sarah Palin, but she was a young child when her Catholic parents left the church. I really don’t think we can blame her for that. Children usually go where there parents go.

 

[seekerz]

Coordination of message is fairly ubiquitous. No matter what the topic, the “talking heads”, regardless of their political persuasion, are often word-for-word “on point”. It’s not a right thing or a left thing, it’s just a thing.

Perhaps the key would be to ferret out information independently, and not depend on anyone else to tell you how you should think about any given subject?

I’m all for independent ferreting of information and independent thinking. That concept has my 100% unqualified support. The short-circuiting of our rational processes is impossible without our consent.

 

[gilliam]

The purpose of the rally yesterday:

Ultimately, however, it was Beck’s call for a religious rebirth that dominated. He urged the throngs to “recognize your place to the Creator” and to “realize that He is our king.”

“He is the one who guides and directs our life and protects us,” Beck said, his voice rising. “I ask, not only if you would pray on your knees, but pray on your knees with your door open for your children to see.”

nationalreview.com/corner/245045/glenn-becks-revival-robert-costa

 

[Roy5]

Sorry, but I haven’t digested all the postings on this thread so far, but may I share my impressions of the Beck rally - as much as I saw of it on C-Span.

  1. **He certainly pulled in a huge crowd**, probably even outnumbering that drawn by the 1963 March on Washington.

  2. **Beck is a very effective speaker** and outstanding while addressing such a large crowd.

  3. **He really is confused in trying to tie himself in with Dr. King**. Beck has spent time denouncing the 'social gospel' which he attacks as part of the progressives that he so roundly denounces. Dr. King probably will go down as the #1 social gospel preacher of all times. His message and that of Glenn Beck are diametrically opposed in a variety of ways. 

  4.** I** **wondered (as I watched) how many in the crowd responded to the presence of so** **many African-Americans**. Most of them would not be racists, but some surely are. I was hoping that Beck would help overcome such racism among those who adore him. Not sure that happened. When the Black soloist belted out her song I thought somehow that it could have turned off those 'traditionalists' who look down on uninhibited Black gospel. But maybe it served to combat prejudice. I hope so.

 5. I **thought I detected at one quick juncture ****Beck's brief injection of his Mormon faith**. He spoke in a somewhat jumbled fashion about Native Americans first coming here and then, if I heard correctly, alluded to others (before the Mayflower etc) who came on barges. I thought I heard that word. If so, this is part of Mormon teaching, how people from then ancient Holy Land came over on barges - frankly, I forget the details, which are spelled out in the Book of Mormon. I believe it involved a man named Jared who, with his kinfolk, came to the western hemisphere on eight barges. That was before Mormons teach that Lehi and his family came over in 600 BC.  One of Lehi's sons, Nephi - well, this is not the place for repeating Mormon-version history.

 6. **My own view** is that Beck is a superb entertainer and he has been very successful through that skill in convincing lots of decent, concerned Americans of a totally revised view of US history. Not time or space to go into that here. But just one example. Now I admire Calvin Coolidge. A very fine man. Beck had two authors who admired Coolidge enormously, too, and presented him as a great example.  What they neglected to say is that less than nine months after Coolidge left office the Great Crash of 1929 took place!

  7. **What worries me **is that Beck, if he so chooses, could become a pied piper who divides Americans more than any time since the tragic Civil War. He is an wily alarmist who, in my opinion, uses 'God' as a facade behind which to push his particular agenda. I know Mormons are fine people, but Mormonism 's view of God is far afield from that of all others who claim to be Christians.   

  8. **Some of what Beck preaches is fine.** Certainly America needs to straight up and work on curing the illnesses that afflict our nation. But I don't trust Beck to lead us intelligently in the right direction.

 

[seekerz]

Sorry, but I haven’t digested all the postings on this thread so far, but may I share my impressions of the Beck rally - as much as I saw of it on C-Span.

  1. **He certainly pulled in a huge crowd**, probably even outnumbering that drawn by the 1963 March on Washington.

  2. **Beck is a very effective speaker** and outstanding while addressing such a large crowd.

  3. **He really is confused in trying to tie himself in with Dr. King**. Beck has spent time denouncing the 'social gospel' which he attacks as part of the progressives that he so roundly denounces. Dr. King probably will go down as the #1 social gospel preacher of all times. His message and that of Glenn Beck are diametrically opposed in a variety of ways. 

  4.** I** **wondered (as I watched) how many in the crowd responded to the presence of so** **many African-Americans**. Most of them would not be racists, but some surely are. I was hoping that Beck would help overcome such racism among those who adore him. Not sure that happened. When the Black soloist belted out her song I thought somehow that it could have turned off those 'traditionalists' who look down on uninhibited Black gospel. But maybe it served to combat prejudice. I hope so.

 5. I **thought I detected at one quick juncture ****Beck's brief injection of his Mormon faith**. He spoke in a somewhat jumbled fashion about Native Americans first coming here and then, if I heard correctly, alluded to others (before the Mayflower etc) who came on barges. I thought I heard that word. If so, this is part of Mormon teaching, how people from then ancient Holy Land came over on barges - frankly, I forget the details, which are spelled out in the Book of Mormon. I believe it involved a man named Jared who, with his kinfolk, came to the western hemisphere on eight barges. That was before Mormons teach that Lehi and his family came over in 600 BC.  One of Lehi's sons, Nephi - well, this is not the place for repeating Mormon-version history.

 6. **My own view** is that Beck is a superb entertainer and he has been very successful through that skill in convincing lots of decent, concerned Americans of a totally revised view of US history. Not time or space to go into that here. But just one example. Now I admire Calvin Coolidge. A very fine man. Beck had two authors who admired Coolidge enormously, too, and presented him as a great example.  What they neglected to say is that less than nine months after Coolidge left office the Great Crash of 1929 took place!

  7. **What worries me **is that Beck, if he so chooses, could become a pied piper who divides Americans more than any time since the tragic Civil War. He is an wily alarmist who, in my opinion, uses 'God' as a facade behind which to push his particular agenda. I know Mormons are fine people, but Mormonism 's view of God is far afield from that of all others who claim to be Christians.   

  8. **Some of what Beck preaches is fine.** Certainly America needs to straight up and work on curing the illnesses that afflict our nation. But I don't trust Beck to lead us intelligently in the right direction.

Pretty good summary. Somehow the pied piper analogy is what sticks with me most - en garde, mes enfants…(figuratively speaking of course, eh Beck).

 

[no2masters4life]

I’m weighing in one more time. The larger idea of my earliest post discussing the Third Great Spiritual Awakening in America is getting overshadowed by a few minor quibbling points.

If I am not mistaken, Beck is saying, let people know you are a person of faith to strengthen others in their faith.
And he said to them, “Is a lamp brought in to be put under a bushel, or under a bed, and not on a stand? For there is nothing hid, except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret, except to come to light. If any man has ears to hear, let him hear.” And he said to them, “Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.” Mark 4:21-25

.

Where is prayer mentioned in Mark 4:21-25? This is not about how to pray. Mark discusses how you represent yourself in Christian life when you aren’t praying. MATT from Sacred Scripture directly criticizes Glenn Beck’s idea of praying with the door open so your children can see you.

*The Catholic Church teaches that Catholics, Jews and Muslims all pray to the same God. Those religous and clergy on stage, I think, were saying the same thing. We would differ with the Mormons I think, but Beck and those on stage were definately trying to tell everyone in the crowd that we all worship the same God. I don’t think anyone can speak for the crowd. [/INDENT]

.*

If Glenn Beck gets up on stage and tells us Christians worship the same God as the Mormons, he is a liar. We might share God in common with Abrahamic religions, but not with him and other Mormons. Anyone on EWTN will tell you the same. So anything he says in the name of God is suspect to me.

Maybe to get others return founding principles to government?

No, we don’t pray to God with the door open to get children to return to the founding principles of government, Gilliam. My quote in context addresses what Glenn Beck said about praying with the door open in front of his children, a practice that doesn’t concern the larger practice of praying in public groups at large events.

Someone else brought up if he was on a Mormon mission with this or not. So far I don’t see it. It looks more like he is on a mission to get people to go back to their roots, be thay Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Islamic or Mormon. At least that seemed to be the message he was giving.

Criticize it. What roots do we have in common with Mormons? Can these roots trace back to the birth in the manger or the Third Great Spiritual Awakening in America? What resulted from that nineteenth century revivalist spirit? Was there a greater understanding of Catholicism or perversions and blights of religiosity that we have to guard against even in the present day? Is Glenn Beck using Mormonism to energize his rants, or is he using his rants to legitimize and politicize Mormonism? To what degree should we buy into what he says at face value and to what degree should we be critical?

 

[gilliam]

No, we don’t pray to God with the door open to get children to return to the founding principles of government, Gilliam. My quote in context addresses what Glenn Beck said about praying with the door open in front of his children, a practice that doesn’t concern the larger practice of praying in public groups at large events.

Want to have your kids pray? Then you pray and let them see you pray.

Teaching by example is one of the most effective methods of teaching.

 

[gilliam]

I think the message yesterday was pretty straight forward. The nation is in trouble, we tried a lot of things, it is time we tried returning to faith in God.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

  4.** I** **wondered (as I watched) how many in the crowd responded to the presence of so** **many African-Americans**. Most of them would not be racists, but some surely are. I was hoping that Beck would help overcome such racism among those who adore him. Not sure that happened. When the Black soloist belted out her song I thought somehow that it could have turned off those 'traditionalists' who look down on uninhibited Black gospel. But maybe it served to combat prejudice. I hope so.

What black people?
realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/08/28/cbs_news_to_black_woman_at_beck_rally_im_noticing_that_there_are_not_a_lot_of_minorities_here.html

 

[gnjsdad]

I think the message yesterday was pretty straight forward. The nation is in trouble, we tried a lot of things, it is time we tried returning to faith in God.

Unless the result is a mass conversion to the Catholic faith and resolve to bring Catholic social doctrine to American politics, all of this will be in vain, IMO.

 

[estesbob]

Unless the result is a mass conversion to the Catholic faith and resolve to bring Catholic social doctrine to American politics, all of this will be in vain, IMO.

The biggest obstacle to Catholic social doctrine gaining hold in American politics is that Catholics continue to empower politicians who reject most Catholic moral positions out of hand. 54% of Catholics voted for Obama, who is anthema to Catholic teaching

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

The truth-o-meter has not been kind to Beck in the past, I’m interested on what it has to say about his speech.

politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/aug/27/glenn-beck-faces-truth-o-meter/

 

[gilliam]

The truth-o-meter has not been kind to Beck in the past, I’m interested on what it has to say about his speech.

Personally, I not waiting for a left of center political punditry site to tell me that making God the center of American political life is a good or bad idea.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Personally, I not waiting for a left of center political punditry site to tell me that making God the center of American political life is a good or bad idea.

 

[davy39]

The biggest obstacle to Catholic social doctrine gaining hold in American politics is that Catholics continue to empower politicians who reject most Catholic moral positions out of hand. 54% of Catholics voted for Obama, who is anthema to Catholic teaching

You’re right! The Church and it’s members are somewhat responsible for the half-empty churches, and the flood of Catholics voting for pro-abortion and pro euthanasia cantidates. And of course, the ongoing flood of priest abuse cases going through the courts doesn’t help anything either. But then when one person organizes a event like this to bring the country back to God, people have problems with it. I guess I’m just too old to understand anymore. God bless Glenn Beck!!!