Behavior at abortion clinic

[kalt]

kalt;3636452]

I understand all of your points, I do. And they are logical. But I am not suggesting that only a couple of people use my method, I am suggesting that a mass number of people use it. A couple of angry people come off as crazy. 500+ angry people, and it get’s noticed. I am not talking about a reckless mob action necessarily, but the power of sheer numbers. Look at the immigration rallies. They WILL get what they want eventually. Women’s rights mobs won because of that method. I am not above using those methods, they have worked in the past, and they can work now, for our benefit.

I think you’re right. If the majority of people stood outside clinics every weekend to protest abortion, it would get noticed. It will never happen. It’s just not the way the world works. You won’t get that many people to commit.

Mob scenes don’t work. Mobs can’t be controlled.

In the end, people in authority have to be on your side. If not, no number of people will get anything done. I don’t think that abortion will end by convincing the majority of people that it’s wrong. It will be the minority that fight to get what’s right done. (Think civil rights.)

This is a legal issue, and until the law is changed, very little will change, no matter what you do.

If it’s legal, people will insist on their legal right to an abortion.

It is extremely difficult to convince people that something that is legal is wrong. Look at slavery. It was illegal in the North, but legal in the South. Try to convince people in the South, then, that slavery is wrong. It took a war to end it, and even then the people didn’ t believe that it was wrong. Their minds were never changed.

And those slaves were people that they could see. They believed that their slave laws were morally upstanding and even fair to and protective of the black people. Try convincing a bunch of people that a person they can’t see, a person that looks like a cluster of cells, that can’t live on its own, is a person with rights, and that they, the person you can see, who looks like a person, who can live on her own, has no rights (as they will understand the argument).

That is the exact argument I heard a Catholic give for allowing abortion. She was a director of an abortion clinic, and she said, “If I have to choose between an embryo or the girl sitting in front of me, I will always choose the girl sitting in front of me.”
That woman was later excommunicated. But there is the argument.

Changing minds is never easy. If it’s legal, people will insist that it’s correct. Even using the example of slavery won’t work, because the pro-choice people don’t think that the unborn is a person with legal rights.

If you make it illegal, those people will still argue that the unborn shouldn’t have any rights, just as those in the South argued that ending slavery was wrong.

But what we’re really talking about here is a very local thing,. It’s about saving one baby at a time. You can help to change one woman’s mind.

If you hope to change minds, though, you can’t do it by looking like a lunatic.

 

[Danny_OC]

I think you’re right. If the majority of people stood outside clinics every weekend to protest abortion, it would get noticed. It will never happen. It’s just not the way the world works. You won’t get that many people to commit.

Mob scenes don’t work. Mobs can’t be controlled.

In the end, people in authority have to be on your side. If not, no number of people will get anything done. I don’t think that abortion will end by convincing the majority of people that it’s wrong. It will be the minority that fight to get what’s right done. (Think civil rights.)

This is a legal issue, and until the law is changed, very little will change, no matter what you do.

If it’s legal, people will insist on their legal right to an abortion.

It is extremely difficult to convince people that something that is legal is wrong. Look at slavery. It was illegal in the North, but legal in the South. Try to convince people in the South, then, that slavery is wrong. It took a war to end it, and even then the people didn’ t believe that it was wrong. Their minds were never changed.

And those slaves were people that they could see. They believed that their slave laws were morally upstanding and even fair to and protective of the black people. Try convincing a bunch of people that a person they can’t see, a person that looks like a cluster of cells, that can’t live on its own, is a person with rights, and that they, the person you can see, who looks like a person, who can live on her own, has no rights (as they will understand the argument).

That is the exact argument I heard a Catholic give for allowing abortion. She was a director of an abortion clinic, and she said, “If I have to choose between an embryo or the girl sitting in front of me, I will always choose the girl sitting in front of me.”
That woman was later excommunicated. But there is the argument.

Changing minds is never easy. If it’s legal, people will insist that it’s correct. Even using the example of slavery won’t work, because the pro-choice people don’t think that the unborn is a person with legal rights.

If you make it illegal, those people will still argue that the unborn shouldn’t have any rights, just as those in the South argued that ending slavery was wrong.

But what we’re really talking about here is a very local thing,. It’s about saving one baby at a time. You can help to change one woman’s mind.

If you hope to change minds, though, you can’t do it by looking like a lunatic.

You seem to only care about the big picture. Of course that is important, probably the most important; but individual cases are still worth fighting for also. If you can use a method that prevents one life from being destroyed; who cares if it is seen as “lunatic” and “will not convince most people that legal abortion is wrong”?

The underground railroad operators didn’t care that slavery was legal, or that their actions would not convince the masses that slavery was wrong. They did what they did because it meant everything to those that they were able to save. The same is true with standing outside an abortion clinic, doing whatever you can to save the baby.

 

[Danny_OC]

And one more note: based on your initial assessment of the situation in your initial post that created this thread, kalt, it really is wrong to summarize the situation as “two older men yelling ‘loser’ at a woman going in.” That is an entirely unjust way of conveying it. If I am not mistaken, what actually happened was they were yelling “only losers go in there,” and “don’t be a loser.” That is *completely *different. Let’s be fair.

 

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3639001]

I think you’re right. If the majority of people stood outside clinics every weekend to protest abortion, it would get noticed. It will never happen. It’s just not the way the world works. You won’t get that many people to commit.

Agreed. And that is why we lose on social issues. We lose by our own hand. But, I do know that it is a Jerry Springer world here today. And I know that many on our side are angry and want more action. They are sick of thie PC pansy method that achieves no results, or very limited ones.

Mob scenes don’t work. Mobs can’t be controlled.

The Libs use them all the time, and they get noticed and they work. Not my ideal way, but if it works…Politicains take note of large groups.

In the end, people in authority have to be on your side. If not, no number of people will get anything done. I don’t think that abortion will end by convincing the majority of people that it’s wrong. It will be the minority that fight to get what’s right done. (Think civil rights.)

Sure, and they do only as much as we demand. The time is now to demand real hardcore action.

This is a legal issue, and until the law is changed, very little will change, no matter what you do.

This is how we can get the law changed. We just need the right leader.

If it’s legal, people will insist on their legal right to an abortion.

Agreed. And Roe was bad law to begin with.

It is extremely difficult to convince people that something that is legal is wrong. Look at slavery. It was illegal in the North, but legal in the South. Try to convince people in the South, then, that slavery is wrong. It took a war to end it, and even then the people didn’ t believe that it was wrong. Their minds were never changed.

But now slavery, agreed with or not, is still illegal accross the board.

And those slaves were people that they could see. They believed that their slave laws were morally upstanding and even fair to and protective of the black people. Try convincing a bunch of people that a person they can’t see, a person that looks like a cluster of cells, that can’t live on its own, is a person with rights, and that they, the person you can see, who looks like a person, who can live on her own, has no rights (as they will understand the argument).

That is the exact argument I heard a Catholic give for allowing abortion. She was a director of an abortion clinic, and she said, “If I have to choose between an embryo or the girl sitting in front of me, I will always choose the girl sitting in front of me.”
That woman was later excommunicated. But there is the argument.

Changing minds is never easy. If it’s legal, people will insist that it’s correct. Even using the example of slavery won’t work, because the pro-choice people don’t think that the unborn is a person with legal rights.

If you make it illegal, those people will still argue that the unborn shouldn’t have any rights, just as those in the South argued that ending slavery was wrong.

But what we’re really talking about here is a very local thing,. It’s about saving one baby at a time. You can help to change one woman’s mind.

If you hope to change minds, though, you can’t do it by looking like a lunatic.

Your logic makes absolute sense. And your strategy is equally as good. You make a very convincing argument, you do. I am just not impressed with the outcomes of our current policy’s. I feel that we are always on the defensive. We protest, stand outside in the cold(or hot) hold up our signs of babies. People go into PP and come out of PP. We get spit on and flipped off. Most of our current liberal social poicy’s were born out of revolution, including, Roe. Unless we want to see another 40 million killed, we should launch our own “second wave” of attacks. Right now, abortion is a little discussed topic in households. I want to out ton the front burner. And if the best we can achieve is banning Roe except in the case of the, well defined, “health of the mother”, rape and incest, then I will consider that a victory. Then we can focus our currently limited resources on saving those lives.(rape, incest) instead of using our limited resources on changing the hearts and minds of the whole nation.

Let’s give the media something to print, that cannot be ignored by almost everyone. We will not look like a few “nut’s”, but a massive movement. Bold moves. Bold moves will bring it back to the national debate. We have Rev. Wright, and Obama is still pushing forward. We have Al Gore, and the global warming hoax is still pushing forward. We have Rev. Michael Pfleger (youtube.com/watch?v=LjJlsGrlbUs) of Chicago, and he still has his tax exempt status.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Kalt,

I know these threads can get heated, but I want you to know, that I consider you an ally in this war, even though we disagree on how to fight it. I know nothing about you except from what I have seen on this one particular thread, and I admire your logic and strategy. I do.

Peace and God Bless

 

[kalt]

You seem to only care about the big picture. Of course that is important, probably the most important; but individual cases are still worth fighting for also. If you can use a method that prevents one life from being destroyed; who cares if it is seen as “lunatic” and “will not convince most people that legal abortion is wrong”?

The underground railroad operators didn’t care that slavery was legal, or that their actions would not convince the masses that slavery was wrong. They did what they did because it meant everything to those that they were able to save. The same is true with standing outside an abortion clinic, doing whatever you can to save the baby.

You missed the last two lines of my last post.

 

[kalt]

And one more note: based on your initial assessment of the situation in your initial post that created this thread, kalt, it really is wrong to summarize the situation as “two older men yelling ‘loser’ at a woman going in.” That is an entirely unjust way of conveying it. If I am not mistaken, what actually happened was they were yelling “only losers go in there,” and “don’t be a loser.” That is *completely *different. Let’s be fair.

“Only losers go in there” yelled at someone who is “going in there”.

 

[kalt]

Kalt,

I know these threads can get heated, but I want you to know, that I consider you an ally in this war, even though we disagree on how to fight it. I know nothing about you except from what I have seen on this one particular thread, and I admire your logic and strategy. I do.

Peace and God Bless

I think we actually agree. This has to come from the top. The leaders have to know that the majority will stand behind them, or they won’t support the cause.

Few politicians today care enough about abortion to risk the next election on standing up for the pro-life side. They might give it lip service when it’s expedient, but they won’t put their jobs on the line for it.

Who knows what the future will bring.

Global warming. I remember being a little kid and worrying that my area of the country was supposed to be under a sheet of ice about now. I finally figured that as long as I had a good, warm winter coat, I would be OK. lol

The enviro nuts have done a lot of good for the country, though. I can remember the highways being littered w/ junk–every mile of them! They’re the ones who preserve open spaces.

I figure we need a balance.

If it were up to the pure capitalists, there wouldn’t be a tree left in a city. All space would be taken up by some sort of money-making business. And of course the pure capitalists would buy their McMansion in the burbs and plant lots of trees on their 1.75 acres.

 

[Danny_OC]

You missed the last two lines of my last post.

Well, let’s get more specific here. Certainly I agree that you shouldn’t act like a lunatic. But from what I can see, the two men you refer to were not acting like lunatics.

Saying someone will be a loser if she goes into an abortion clinic, as she is walking into an abortion clinic, is VERY different from directly calling her a loser; it is giving her a chance to not be one. That was clearly their goal. And honestly, if anybody at all can be rightly classified as a “loser,” that isn’t a label that should be withheld from someone on her way to murder a baby.

 

[Matt33]

wonder wht the reaction would be if they were talking dogs into a dog beating clinic. Wonder if people woul be mad at those yellling?

 

[Ceil-1]

I agree we are not anry enough. There are not enough of us. Most of us just don’t care enough to make the sacrifice.

A presence at the entrance is better than nobody. That way, the girl will at least know she has an ally. Someone to turn to if she is having second thoughts. Her voice of conscience in cases where she is confused.

I don’t agree that all women know what they are doing. They are dealing with a crisis. Their are in a very vulnerable position and their hormones are raging. They need a firm, but loving hand.

The abortionists and their allies, however, need a different approach. We have the right to be angry at them. We should be angry. At least as angry as feminists and immigrants and other groups. Hey, at least we’d get coverage. When was the last time you saw your friends at Washington, in spite of the tens of thousands of voices? I’lll lbet you if someone misbehaved we’d get on the news, all right.

Those that speak out will be ridiculed. I remember when that poor Intercessors of the Lamb priest glued himself to the door in Rochester. Oh, how they villified and mocked him. Yet. he would never have been on television had he not done such a thing. The incident sparked controversy. In the eyes of God, this man is a hero of the faith. He literallty sacrificed himself for the cause of the little ones. I wouldn’t mind standing at the judgement throne if I were him. Think of the deafening voices of those he sacrificed his reputation for calling for his praises.

Yes, I would rather be him than some of us, with the Lord asking us why we allowed this. The more I think about it, the more I shudder.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I have a dream that one day someone will be able to discuss planned parenthood or abortion without referring to the holocaust.

Abortion is the modern day holocaust. It’s perfectly logical to draw the comparison.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

See, this is where you guys are wrong. It’s not your choice to make. It’s not about what you will and won’t “allow”.

Because abortion is legal, you have no right to disallow it.

You guys have to learn to deal with the legal status of abortion.

If you really feel the need to scream at people, go to your politicians and scream your heads off.

Pro-slavery people used similar arguments against abolishinists as well.

“it’s not your plantation, your crop, or your property.”

 

[THurifer2]

T
Well, before they told her that, they screamed (!), “Don’t do it! Are you a loser?! Only losers go in there! Don’t be a loser!”

After that they added to stuff about God’s loving her.

?

What would a person say to a woman who took her child out of a car and placed the child in the middle of a street and then took a sledgehammer and raised it up HIGH abover her head readying to drop it with full force onto the child to kill it…what would you say if you were standing nearby? Would you scream DON"T DO IT? Would you cry out?
Perhaps these men see the obvious fact that there is really no difference between the sledgehammer situation and an abortion clinic.

 

[Mini_gerbel]

What would a person say to a woman who took her child out of a car and placed the child in the middle of a street and then took a sledgehammer and raised it up HIGH abover her head readying to drop it with full force onto the child to kill it…what would you say if you were standing nearby? Would you scream DON"T DO IT? Would you cry out?
Perhaps these men see the obvious fact that there is really no difference between the sledgehammer situation and an abortion clinic.

yes, but yelling wont make a difference. Love makes a difference in this situation.

 

[Epsilon_Omega]

What would a person say to a woman who took her child out of a car and placed the child in the middle of a street and then took a sledgehammer and raised it up HIGH abover her head readying to drop it with full force onto the child to kill it…what would you say if you were standing nearby? Would you scream DON"T DO IT? Would you cry out?
Perhaps these men see the obvious fact that there is really no difference between the sledgehammer situation and an abortion clinic.

The only effective way is by loving them. Period. It isn’t us vs the women. No. The only way to change hearts is by prayer and fasting. Do you think Mary was quick to condemn? She loved them with her immaculate heart. By taking the aggressive approach like in the OP, you aren’t showing love. Let those who have no sin throw the first stone at the women. Rather it should be to care for the women because vitually all of them after getting the abortion come out and are hurt or will be. To tell you the truth being prolife for the sake of saving babies isn’t the only focus of the prolife catholic movement. If the babies die they go to heaven, but the women are headed on the path to hell. So the focus of our prolife movement should be the conversion of souls, and in the conversion of souls, the saving of babies. Without the conversion of souls, women will just go back and get more and more abortions. Convert her heart and she will be changed. Then it will be- Mother, your sins are forgiven before God, go and sin no more.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

What would a person say to a woman who took her child out of a car and placed the child in the middle of a street and then took a sledgehammer and raised it up HIGH abover her head readying to drop it with full force onto the child to kill it…what would you say if you were standing nearby? Would you scream DON"T DO IT? Would you cry out?
Perhaps these men see the obvious fact that there is really no difference between the sledgehammer situation and an abortion clinic.

Uh… no. Let me help you understand.

There is no moral difference whatsoever between the situation you describe and a woman entering an abortion clinic, but for practical purposes (i.e. the matter of actually saving lives), there is quite a bit of difference. That is the fact that your analogy ignores.

First of all, I wouldn’t yell in either situation. In the sledgehammer situation, I would rush over and try to grab the child before he/she could be killed.

See, in the sledgehammer situation, one wouldn’t need to yell. One could easily stop the murder by himself/herself. With a woman entering an abortion clinic, that is not the case.

So, to save the life of the unborn child living inside the woman entering an abortion clinic, it seems one must successfully convince the woman not to go through with the abortion.

If you think yelling at that woman - which is bound to intimidate her and make the pro-life activists appear frightening - is the best course of action, go ahead.

But - as some of the angry pro-yelling posts on this thread prove - such yelling is probably done more for purposes of venting than for saving lives.

In the sledgehammer situation, by contrast, yelling would be a great way to distract the woman long enough to grab the baby.

In one situation, yelling distracts until one can get the child to safety.

In the other situation, the yelling is supposedly intended to convince her not to have an abortion.

As anyone can see, the difference between the two situations is quite clear.

 

[distracted]

Personally, I would have called the police.

what? Are you Catholic?

OK, so these guys were doing it the wrong way… but call the police??

that’s just what those murderers want…

 

[distracted]

Today I was at a yard sale next door to an abortion clinic. I saw 2 older guys (50’s?) peeking over a high stockade fence, yelling at a woman who was going in. ?

No offense, but what were you doing to stop abortion??

I mean… Again, just being honest, but if i were going to go near an abortion clinic, it wouldn’t be to go to a yard sale…

 

[distracted]

We’ve seen those who kill abortionists. Imagine that logic. Kill a human so that a human won’t be killed.

in a way, it is very logical… You get rid of a mass murderer so people will not be killed… the abortionist is a murderer… I don’t feel the one who “takes him out” is a murderer… I am not condoning this course of action by a long shot… but on the other hand, many people today just sit around doing nothing about abortion… Now “everyone” has gotten to the point where it is no big deal… just another choice americans are lucky to be able to make… been legal so long, doesn’t even look like murder anymore…

If a mass murderer were standing outside your back yard pointing a gun at your children, saying he was going to kill them at, say, 10 a.m… Would you just let him??