Behavior at abortion clinic

[SpiritMeadow]

The kind of behavior described is simply counterproductive and that in itself should be enough to dissuade anyone from using it. There are a couple of people on this forum who delight it seems in portraying abortion in the most gut wrenching graphic manner possible. When it is pointed out that such tactics are counter productive, they simply acknowledge that it may well be, but it makes them feel better. I suggest that is what is at work here. Surely God will be most pleased with their self-serving methodology, and that makes them so proud of themselves. The fact that it turns off those they address is of little to no consequence. It reminds one of the pharisee’s and their shows of piety, that Jesus so soundly rejected.

 

[DebChris]

Guess what? You hit the nail on the head with that one. Shock tactics aren’t working.

We, as Catholics must campaign for women to find alternate choices-- both abstinence (before sex) and and abortion (after sex).

Isn’t there something called the Rebecca Project *please, someone correct me). How about something like a St. Vincent de Paul society? Or even spreadng the rosary to YOUNG FOLKS – what did that used to be called – the solidarity club or something)?

These young adults need alternatives…and I can’t think of much. Does anyone remembe that “Ms. X is in seclusion” becausse she went to a home for unwed mothers? The stigma of being a single parent seems to have been (thankfully) has mostly been removed today.

I can only imagine Jesus who talks about casting the first stone. It takes kindness to win someone over, not epithets. The only way I can think of (and I welcome your ideas) of how to parents and young adults to act in this manner?

Is there a better way to hand out pamphlets and “adopt” one of these women into without stigma against the woman or adoptees? (Please, no discussion of Magdaline Asylums, etc.) Daily visits, daily prayer before the Eucharist? Bring one of these women into your lives, show them that someone cares about their welfare and the life of their child…bring them into one’s life with safety and trust. What do you suggest?

And when I saw a ralley, I firmly camped out at the trailer that said “Adoption is an option.”

Never, ever, let them stop going to Mass. Discuss the homily on the way home. Insist on modest clothing. And most of all, teach each them that their bodies aren’t just for pleasure, but are temples of the Holy Spirit and are to be treated as such.

Teach them to honor themselves – and others. no matter how they may resent you later. You are the parent, YOU are ultimately in charge.

In summation, try your best to stop abortions before they happen. And if a lady is even considering abortion, show her alternatives.

I don’t know where to find solidarity among Catholics - both men and women – without the extremists who do ruin it all.

P.S.: And or the love of God, give young ladies pepper spray!!!

The Rachel Project comes from the scripture passage of Rachel crying for her children that have been taken from her.
Rachel Project is a healing ministry for women who have had an abortion. It is a way for them to be reconciled to the Church if Catholic. Abortion means automatic excommunication. God’s love is greater than our greatest sins. The sin is forgiven.
Rachel Project also helps heal the emotional and psychological scars.
Right to Life has a beautiful pamphlet called “Nobility.” Young girls today are not taught how to say No. They receive mixed messages from the media and elsewhere.
In my first post, I mentioned the mother who brought her daughter to my brother’s apartment. The daughter did not want an abortion. She was being pressured by her own mother.
One way to help these women is by spiritually adopting an unborn child. Never underestimate the power of prayer.

 

[Miserissima]

The Rachel Project comes from the scripture passage of Rachel crying for her children that have been taken from her.
Rachel Project is a healing ministry for women who have had an abortion. It is a way for them to be reconciled to the Church if Catholic. Abortion means automatic excommunication. God’s love is greater than our greatest sins. The sin is forgiven.
Rachel Project also helps heal the emotional and psychological scars.
Right to Life has a beautiful pamphlet called “Nobility.” Young girls today are not taught how to say No. They receive mixed messages from the media and elsewhere.
In my first post, I mentioned the mother who brought her daughter to my brother’s apartment. The daughter did not want an abortion. She was being pressured by her own mother.
One way to help these women is by spiritually adopting an unborn child. Never underestimate the power of prayer.

Thank you. That was well said and I’ll reiterate that “Adoption is an opttion.”

Young girls today are not taught how to say No. They receive mixed messages from the media and elsewhere.

AMEN!

That’s why, in the home, turn off the TV and monitor you’re child’s behavior from the start. Start the thet I can’t (unfortunately) I can’t think of anything else.

 

[DebChris]

Thank you. That was well said and I’ll reiterate that “Adoption is an opttion.”

AMEN!

I agree adoption is an option. It is not one that many consider because they simply don’t hear about it. They only hear about keeping the baby or having an abortion. They are unaware of programs that will help them through this difficult period of time.
James Dobson used to give the telephone number 1-800-4Mom.
This is a number (if still available) that women could call for information about alternatives. Sometimes a couple will sponsor the young woman and help with pre-natal care.
I remember the story told on his radio program about an athlete who after making the telephone call discovered she could redshirt for a year. Today there are open adoptions in which the birth mother is kept informed as her child develops.
The women need this information.
Young boys/men also need to be taught that women are more than sex objects. They need positive male role models who can teach them how to treat a woman. Fortunately there are now mentoring programs for middle school and high school boys.

 

[Danny_OC]

Today I was at a yard sale next door to an abortion clinic. I saw 2 older guys (50’s?) peeking over a high stockade fence, yelling at a woman who was going in.

I couldn’t beleive my ears. Apparently these guys are Christians, because they were yelling stuff about God’s loving her so much that he sent His so to die for her.

Well, before they told her that, they screamed (!), “Don’t do it! Are you a loser?! Only losers go in there! Don’t be a loser!”

After that they added to stuff about God’s loving her.

Yeah, that approach is Christian. That’s an approach that will turn a scared pregnant woman around.

Don’t these clowns realize that it’s that kind of attack that will send the girls to the more comforting and kinder-feeling arms of the people inside the clinic?

What is wrong with people anyway, that they feel the right to attack someone like that? Let me tell you that they were not nice at all. If they were really on her side, you could never have convinced her.

I had nothing to do with the scene, and I wanted to go over there and give them a piece of my mind.

I don’t know what will stop a person from having an abortion once they’re heading in to get it, but I know that screaming strangers peeking over a fence, who are calling a pregnant woman a loser, isn’t likely to stop anyone.

They also had signs that said that 60-something babies were killed there last week. How do they get that information?

I agree with fighting to end abortion. But I don’t agree with the tactic I witnessed today.

What do you think? Were the men justified?

I’m not saying that what these men did was right; but if you consider what abortion actually is, your attitude towards these men might change a little.

Would you have the same opinion of these men if they were behind a fence, shouting those words at someone with a drawn gun, about to shoot a 5 year old girl sitting on her tricycle? It isn’t much different.

 

[kalt]

The kind of behavior described is simply counterproductive and that in itself should be enough to dissuade anyone from using it. There are a couple of people on this forum who delight it seems in portraying abortion in the most gut wrenching graphic manner possible. When it is pointed out that such tactics are counter productive, they simply acknowledge that it may well be, but it makes them feel better. I suggest that is what is at work here. Surely God will be most pleased with their self-serving methodology, and that makes them so proud of themselves. The fact that it turns off those they address is of little to no consequence. It reminds one of the pharisee’s and their shows of piety, that Jesus so soundly rejected.

When I told my spouse about the men at the clinic, this was the only comment made.

“Probably former drug addicts.”

I think that’s a good point. People don’t usually act like this. There has to be something (maybe not drugs, but something big) that makes them feel that it’s they who have the right, responsibility, and the know-how to handle this very complicated problem. Only someone who is/was a little disordered himself would think that screaming at a stranger will accomplish anything. Only someone who is disordered would think that he has the right to do that, anyway.

Armchair analysis here. I’ve known former drug addicts and alcoholics. Most of them are very zealous in whatever interest they take up–more so than most people who haven’t had addiction problems. I figure it’s all part of the addictive personality. They go at everything–good or bad–with their all.

We’ll never know what the deal was with those 2 men, but personal porblems of some sort seems likely.

 

[kalt]

I’m not saying that what these men did was right; but if you consider what abortion actually is, your attitude towards these men might change a little.

Would you have the same opinion of these men if they were behind a fence, shouting those words at someone with a drawn gun, about to shoot a 5 year old girl sitting on her tricycle? It isn’t much different.

It’s actually quite different. Abortion is legal. We might not like it, but it is legal.

I’ve never had a feeling of disgust while passing the clinic, though the pro-life people are there every Saturday morning. They walk quietly, holding signs with words or pictures of aborted babies.
Sometimes there are Catholic groups praying the rosary.

The screaming men are another case altogether. Actually, I think they were breaking the law. I’m pretty sure that it’s illegal to harrass someone going into the clinic.

 

[Danny_OC]

It’s actually quite different. Abortion is legal. We might not like it, but it is legal.

I’ve never had a feeling of disgust while passing the clinic, though the pro-life people are there every Saturday morning. They walk quietly, holding signs with words or pictures of aborted babies.
Sometimes there are Catholic groups praying the rosary.

The screaming men are another case altogether. Actually, I think they were breaking the law. I’m pretty sure that it’s illegal to harrass someone going into the clinic.

I understand the legality part; but what if these men were successful? What if they actually succeeded in saving an innocent human life? Judging by your first post on this thread, it wasn’t the illegality of the behavior of the men that disgusted you, but something else. All I’m saying is that if you look at the situation for what it is, the literal cold blooded murder of an innocent baby, the behavior of the men appears somewhat less disgusting, at the very least paling in comparison to someone choosing to have an abortion.

 

[Danny_OC]

The kind of behavior described is simply counterproductive and that in itself should be enough to dissuade anyone from using it. There are a couple of people on this forum who delight it seems in portraying abortion in the most gut wrenching graphic manner possible. When it is pointed out that such tactics are counter productive, they simply acknowledge that it may well be, but it makes them feel better. I suggest that is what is at work here. Surely God will be most pleased with their self-serving methodology, and that makes them so proud of themselves. The fact that it turns off those they address is of little to no consequence. It reminds one of the pharisee’s and their shows of piety, that Jesus so soundly rejected.

I didn’t read this entire thread so I may be somewhat off the ball here… but I’m not sure where you’re getting the notion that showing graphic images is counterproductive. Who says? I have known it to work very productively on whole crowds of people; still most people do not understand just how revolting abortion is. A picture can make that point a lot more powerfully than most other methods.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

The old saying goes, You get more flies with honey than vinegar…

I know if I were the woman going into the clinic (thankfully I’ve never been in that situation) I would just run faster to the clinic to get away from the kooky men out front. Now on the other hand if I saw a group of women praying the rosary…PRAYING…I would be reminded of my God and His rules regarding killing and hopefully think twice about the situation. Screaming insults at me would not help at all and I think hurt the situation. Since I’ve personally never went to have an abortion I just equate it to the experiences I’ve had recently

I recently converted to Catholicism from protestantism…Now I have been introduced to the screaming protestants who call me names for being Catholic, telling me I’m going to hell, and try to persuade me to join their church…AGAIN screaming does not work as a successful persuasion technique. I slam the door or run away from them b/c I just assume that since they are screaming at me they are lunatics and I can’t take their opinion valid.

I know having an abortion is MUCH more GRAVE than the situation above but I hope I have illustrated that regardless of situations screaming insults is NOT a good technique

To address the example “What if they were screaming at someone about to shoot a 5 year old” That’s a bunch of bunk. Have you ever watched a hostage situation? Do the police/FBI yell at the guy with a gun? You NEVER YELL at a guy with a GUN b/c he will get ANGRY or NERVOUS and shoot anyway! You talk soothingly. The prayer women would have better success here too!!

 

[Danny_OC]

When I told my spouse about the men at the clinic, this was the only comment made.

“Probably former drug addicts.”

I think that’s a good point. People don’t usually act like this. There has to be something (maybe not drugs, but something big) that makes them feel that it’s they who have the right, responsibility, and the know-how to handle this very complicated problem. Only someone who is/was a little disordered himself would think that screaming at a stranger will accomplish anything. Only someone who is disordered would think that he has the right to do that, anyway.

Armchair analysis here. I’ve known former drug addicts and alcoholics. Most of them are very zealous in whatever interest they take up–more so than most people who haven’t had addiction problems. I figure it’s all part of the addictive personality. They go at everything–good or bad–with their all.

We’ll never know what the deal was with those 2 men, but personal porblems of some sort seems likely.

I am sorry but if you think that someone shouting at a stranger means that they have serious fundamental problems, there’s a whoooole other part of humanity out there that you probably haven’t had too much contact with! I don’t know your background, but I do know a lot of (I’m not claiming you are this) uptight middle/upper class people who think that anything but the most amiable and polite approach to anything is an atrocity. I can’t stand that.

 

[GraceDK]

For a woman choosing an abortion, jumping over or leaning over a fence is laughable. Standing outside a clinic, is manipulative, and hardens the woman to what she is doing. You don’t know HER, you are just judging her and she know’s it. When you stand in judgment of her, she will rebel against you.

You don’t stop abortion by protesting and making women feel bad. Quite Frankly, you just irritate them, and make them less inclined to listen to you.

If you want to do that go ahead. Won’t make one Iota of difference. To them…you look like a fool and you won’t make a difference at all.

Edna… its too bad… in some of your posts I got really amazed at your clearmindedness but lately its gone down in my eyes…

I know off a young woman in Munic who stands out side an abortion clinic with a little plastic baby… she stands there all alone and when a woman comes along she holds up the little fetus and says: “This is how your baby looks now…” some of the women stop… some of them change their minds. Then there are others who proceed and Maria, thats her name, tells them: “Just give the baby to me, please…if you do not want it”. Everything is done peacefully but with apostolic firmness and zeal. Quite a few babies have been saved through Marias heroic ministry.

I think the biggest sin in the whole of Christianity today is passivity, indifference and tepidity. We willingly watch children get slaughered and our young people die spiritually in homes, schools, and streets because we are too chicken to speak out against evil.

I can only say to the OP. Yeah… maybe the method could have been better than what those men performed… but YOU, what did you do? what did you tell the woman there to change her mind? what was your method … Silence?
I’d say: better to try in a less than perfect manner than stay silent and just critizise others.

I prefer those who at least DO something… in stead of talking and sitting closely in their church pews saying: lets let the Jews die so we dont hurt islamic feelings… let’s not protest with bloody pictures because that would hurt the ones that had abortions … let’s not tell our friends that premarital sex is wrong because maybe they wont like us anymore if we do…

…

 

[Danny_OC]

I can only say to the OP. Yeah… maybe the method could have been better than what those men performed… but YOU, what did you do? what did you tell the woman there to change her mind? what was your method … Silence?
I’d say: better to try in a less than perfect manner than stay silent and just critizise others.

I prefer those who at least DO something… in stead of talking and sitting closely in their church pews saying: lets let the Jews die so we dont hurt islamic feelings… let’s not protest with bloody pictures because that would hurt the ones that had abortions … let’s not tell our friends that premarital sex is wrong because maybe they wont like us anymore if we do…

…

Amen

 

[stuart12]

I am sure showing those who believe that abortion is their right, pictures of aborted babies, will change their opinion all together. There are some on priestsforlife: terrible crime and we can only pray that the Lord will help the Pro-Life cause.

Life is not something that you gave to yourself; you received it.

 

[kalt]

I understand the legality part; but what if these men were successful? What if they actually succeeded in saving an innocent human life? Judging by your first post on this thread, it wasn’t the illegality of the behavior of the men that disgusted you, but something else. All I’m saying is that if you look at the situation for what it is, the literal cold blooded murder of an innocent baby, the behavior of the men appears somewhat less disgusting, at the very least paling in comparison to someone choosing to have an abortion.

I guess you would have had to be there to understand. Your are intellectualizing there actions. I saw and heard their actions in person. Their actions and words were not noble. Make no mistake about that.

 

[kalt]

I am sorry but if you think that someone shouting at a stranger means that they have serious fundamental problems, there’s a whoooole other part of humanity out there that you probably haven’t had too much contact with! I don’t know your background, but I do know a lot of (I’m not claiming you are this) uptight middle/upper class people who think that anything but the most amiable and polite approach to anything is an atrocity. I can’t stand that.

I think most of us have visited a city in which the local “crazy” is on the street corner yelling at people about some societal injustice, Hell, or some other cause. These guys happened to be at the abortion clinic.

Their tactic doesn’t work. If the goal is to save babies, how can anyone support their behavior and claim that it’s justified. It’s counterproductive! It would be better if they stayed in the front with the group. It would be better if they stayed home!

 

[kalt]

Edna… its too bad… in some of your posts I got really amazed at your clearmindedness but lately its gone down in my eyes…

I know off a young woman in Munic who stands out side an abortion clinic with a little plastic baby… she stands there all alone and when a woman comes along she holds up the little fetus and says: “This is how your baby looks now…” some of the women stop… some of them change their minds. Then there are others who proceed and Maria, thats her name, tells them: “Just give the baby to me, please…if you do not want it”. Everything is done peacefully but with apostolic firmness and zeal. Quite a few babies have been saved through Marias heroic ministry.

I think the biggest sin in the whole of Christianity today is passivity, indifference and tepidity. We willingly watch children get slaughered and our young people die spiritually in homes, schools, and streets because we are too chicken to speak out against evil.

I can only say to the OP. Yeah… maybe the method could have been better than what those men performed… but YOU, what did you do? what did you tell the woman there to change her mind? what was your method … Silence?
I’d say: better to try in a less than perfect manner than stay silent and just critizise others.

I prefer those who at least DO something… in stead of talking and sitting closely in their church pews saying: lets let the Jews die so we dont hurt islamic feelings… let’s not protest with bloody pictures because that would hurt the ones that had abortions … let’s not tell our friends that premarital sex is wrong because maybe they wont like us anymore if we do…

…

You don’t understand. You’re giving them credit for doing something. In reality, they’re counterproductive. As I said in an earlier post, it would have been better if they stayed home.

No one wants to see someone have an abortion. But if stopping it is your goal, then give credit to the people who at least do no harm. Take credit away from those who hurt the cause–those 2 men.

I think many of you want to give these guys an A for effort–at least they did something.

Another poster compared this to a gunman holding a 5-yr-old hostage. Wouldn’t it be better if someone yelled? No, as a 2nd poster pointed out, that would do more harm than good. If you don’t know what you’re doing, at least do no harm.

 

[m134e5]

What do you think? Were the men justified?

No, they were not justified. This kind of reminds me of that show with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron where they go around asking people if they’ve ever lied and having them call themselves liars, and other things. This fundamentalist approach does not save souls. It only causes people to be ashamed of themselves, and turn further away from God.

 

[Danny_OC]

kalt, your entire stance is based on this notion that the behavior of these men is somehow an obvious counterproductive measure. But you’re just fooling yourself if you think that a completely un-bothered woman, left completely alone, is more likely to just randomly decide to turn around before entering the door to the clinic than the same woman who instead is shouted at. I am not saying there aren’t other measures that would be MORE productive, what I am saying is that it’s quite undeniable that doing NOTHING has a much lower chance of influencing her to turn around.

And if there were indeed a 5 year old girl on her tricycle about to be shot in cold blood, the one who shouts at the gunman deserves a hell of a lot more praise than the one who watches and does nothing.

 

[DebChris]

The old saying goes, You get more flies with honey than vinegar…

To address the example “What if they were screaming at someone about to shoot a 5 year old” That’s a bunch of bunk. Have you ever watched a hostage situation? Do the police/FBI yell at the guy with a gun? You NEVER YELL at a guy with a GUN b/c he will get ANGRY or NERVOUS and shoot anyway! You talk soothingly. The prayer women would have better success here too!!

Nobody has mentioned prudence on this thread. We do not want to make a bad situation worse.
I can give a personal example from when I worked at a convenience store. There was an incident outside in which a man was shot. It would have been foolhardy to rush outside. I continued as if nothing had happened, noting the vehicle and other pertinent information before calling 911. The man survived and came back to thank me two months later when he was released from the hospital.
The point is that there are many different ways to fight the injustice of aborticide. I continue to fight for the constitutional amendment “that every reasonable effort shall be made to protect the life and dignity of the individual from the moment of conception.” Several of my letters have been published in major newspapers. Without life there is no liberty.