Being a Police Officer, Being a Catholic

[epan]

… It is in military professions where they teach you to disregard morality and reject God’s laws, where they teach you to just “follow orders” without question and ignore conscience. …

This statement contradicts my experience. I have served in the US Marines, and also in the US Navy. Any order which violates the law should be disregarded. My perception is that, in general, the US military operates to a higher moral standard than the private business sector. In some areas (such as the administration of problems with sexual perversion), I think that a case could be made that the US military has operated to a higher moral standard overall than some religious organizations.

Every large organization has the problem of the actions of individuals reflecting on the the whole. However the military, unlike most organizations, will prosecute individuals who act in a way which does not represent the values of the organization.

I suggest that you misunderstand the culture and organization which you criticize.

Having said that, and pardon the long statement. Your job as a peace officer is to protect the right of the citizen to free expression. Whether you agree with that, or not, is irrelevant. It is only speech. Hopefully, the truth will prevail. But that is not your concern, professionally. I would point out, that by facilitating an open discussion, that you serve to allow the full picture to be revealed. The business of trying to suppress ideas which are disagreeable always fails.

I also know that nobody can predict the long range consequences of immediate action.

So, don’t worry about it. Just protect the citizen’s constitutional / legal rights.

 

[josh987654321]

Scruples in the sense I think used here – refers to “unreasonable” concerns …to seeing sin where it is not.

It is not a question of following the higher law of God…

For example it would be a scruple if say a police officer thought he would sin if he kept a person from killing a drug dealer…(where as in reality he is to protect life…even the life of one who is a dealer).

Okay, I understand.

This was the definition of Scruples, that I found.

Noun
A feeling of doubt or hesitation with regard to the morality or propriety of a course of action.

Verb
Hesitate or be reluctant to do something that one thinks may be wrong.

I think it’s important to question and even reject authority, especially when it clashes with God’s laws. I think it would be detrimental to learn to suppress ones conscience in order to obey “man’s” laws without question.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[devoutchristian]

And if a police officer feels that he cannot, in all conscience, serve both, then ought to immediately resign from the police service.

The problem is that something unexpected could arise, and there are very few jobs that lack even a remote chance of being told to do something immoral.

No. But he is obliged to protect the safety of women who have abortions.

But he is not allowed to protect the practice of abortion itself.

To have remained within an organisation that carried out such acts would in itself be wrong, as by remaining within that organisation you are giving support to the actions carried out by them.

Nonsense. It was not a sin to be German without renouncing one’s Citizenship.

 

[Brendan_64]

Nonsense. It was not a sin to be German without renouncing one’s Citizenship.

I’m not talking about being German, it wasn’t the German civilian population that carried out atrocities, and not even the Wehrmacht. I’m talking about being a member of the SS. They were the ones who used the excuse of, “only following orders”. To have remained in such an organisation, knowing full well what many in that organisation were being ordered to do, would be to support such actions. It would be sinful. Even if the person themselves did not carry out such actions, they would be complicit in their knowledge of such actions, and be supporting these by remaining in the organisation that was carrying them out.

 

[Brendan_64]

The problem is that something unexpected could arise, and there are very few jobs that lack even a remote chance of being told to do something immoral.

Then should the issue arise, and assuming his employer can lawfully ask him to do this, he should resign. In fact if he already knows of things that he might lawfully be asked to do as part of his job, but is hoping to be able to avoid carrying them our, or hope that he isn’t asked, then he should seriously consider whether it is the right job for him. One should not take up a job if it is likely to include you being asked to do things that you consider to be sinful.

 

[devoutchristian]

I’m not talking about being German, it wasn’t the German civilian population that carried out atrocities, and not even the Wehrmacht. I’m talking about being a member of the SS. They were the ones who used the excuse of, “only following orders”. To have remained in such an organisation, knowing full well what many in that organisation were being ordered to do, would be to support such actions. It would be sinful. Even if the person themselves did not carry out such actions, they would be complicit in their knowledge of such actions, and be supporting these by remaining in the organisation that was carrying them out.

I read your post as referring to Germany itself, since that was the only organization mentioned in the quoted part of Josh’s post. Mea culpa. It does raise an interesting question though. I suppose that if a member of the SS had a conversion experience, it would be legitimate to remain in the SS if he intended to sabotage it, but yes I agree, remaining in the SS with the intention of cooperating with its evil would be sinful.

One should not take up a job if it is likely to include you being asked to do things that you consider to be sinful.

Certainly. My point was simply that there are few jobs where there does not exist at least the remote possibility of being asked to do something sinful.

 

[Fairwinds]

…Certainly. My point was simply that there are few jobs where there does not exist at least the remote possibility of being asked to do something sinful.

if your scruples demand it, think this through and resign/don’t take the job before you’re called on to do your duty/what you’re paid to do.

I don’t think anyone here would ask you (the general “you”) to do something you consider sinful, just don’t put others in harms way by having a scrupulous attack at an inopportune time, and don’t take public money (time and money invested in you is wasted, and someone else will have be to be trained up).

 

[devoutchristian]

if your scruples demand it, think this through and resign/don’t take the job before you’re called on to do your duty/what you’re paid to do.

I don’t think anyone here would ask you (the general “you”) to do something you consider sinful, just don’t put others in harms way by having a scrupulous attack at an inopportune time, and don’t take public money (time and money invested in you is wasted, and someone else will have be to be trained up).

One can’t live their life in fear of having to stand for what is right.

 

[Fairwinds]

One can’t live their life in fear of having to stand for what is right.

exactly. almost all of us do that already. it may be that you (generic you) need to carefully pick a line of work that doesn’t threaten anyone else’s life before you get the scruples.

 

[R1ch4rd]

Okay, I understand.

This was the definition of Scruples, that I found.

Noun
A feeling of doubt or hesitation with regard to the morality or propriety of a course of action.

Verb
Hesitate or be reluctant to do something that one thinks may be wrong.

I think it’s important to question and even reject authority, especially when it clashes with God’s laws. I think it would be detrimental to learn to suppress ones conscience in order to obey “man’s” laws without question.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

I’m not sure you do understand. The weapon you carry is not meant to fire warning shots nor is it intended to shoot the gun from an assailants hand or even wound him. If your weapon is drawn and you deem it necessary to use it, your trained to put three rounds in center mass without hesitation. As an LEO, if you need to stop and think if taking
a life is moral when your life and perhaps that of your fellow officer is at stake, better look for a different vocation.

 

[Brendan_64]

I read your post as referring to Germany itself, since that was the only organization mentioned in the quoted part of Josh’s post. Mea culpa.

You’re a gentleman.

It does raise an interesting question though. I suppose that if a member of the SS had a conversion experience, it would be legitimate to remain in the SS if he intended to sabotage it, but yes I agree, remaining in the SS with the intention of cooperating with its evil would be sinful.

While not a member of the SS, he was a member of the Nazi Party, Oscar Schindler (who was indeed a Catholic) did just that. ‘Converted’ from being a self-serving opportunist, to devoting his life to saving Jews. He probably would not have been able to do this, had he not remained a member of the Nazi Party.

 

[Fairwinds]

You’re a gentleman.
while not in the SS, he was a member of the Nazi Party. Oscar Schindler (who was indeed a Catholic) did just that. ‘Converted’ from being a self-serving opportunist, to devoting his life to saving Jews. He probably would not have been able to do this, had he not remained a member of the Nazi Party.

the NSDAP wasn’t declared a criminal organization by the Nuremberg tribunals, the SS was. Schindler was an complex, war profiteer and hero.

if I remember, there’s a character in one of Vonnegut’s novels who had been a nazi concentration camp doctor and had fled afterwards, doing missionary work somewhere as a doctor. one of the characters commented that in several hundred years the number of people he saved would finally balance the number of people he let die.

 

[devoutchristian]

I’m not sure you do understand. The weapon you carry is not meant to fire warning shots nor is it intended to shoot the gun from an assailants hand or even wound him. If your weapon is drawn and you deem it necessary to use it, your trained to put three rounds in center mass without hesitation. As an LEO, if you need to stop and think if taking
a life is moral when your life and perhaps that of your fellow officer is at stake, better look for a different vocation.

When did he say that he would be hesitant to take the life of a malefactor if it was necessary to save his life or the life of another? In any case, from what I’ve read, police are trained to use the least force necessary.

 

[Fairwinds]

…

The question is to “serve” who? the law? God’s laws always trump man’s laws. It would be difficult being a police officer, because it’s important to keep in mind that we are called to serve God above man.

don’t take a police job then. do you understand no one making you do this? do whatever you need to serve your scruples but not at the risk of the public.

No. Always have an attack of scruples on the Job. We are called to serve God, on the day of judgement you will not have a badge to stand behind.

do this before you’re hired. do what you’re trained to do or don’t take the job. this isn’t about you.

So always question the morality, don’t be so blind to obey every foolish order of man. That is how evil thrives. During World War II in Nazi Germany, do you think they could stand behind “I was just following orders” for the genocide of millions?

comparing an ordinary policeman’s job to the nazis means you’ve lost the argument by any standard.

I am surprised at the number of comments that told you to serve the law without question. It is in military professions where they teach you to disregard morality and reject God’s laws, where they teach you to just “follow orders” without question and ignore conscience. You should never ignore conscience no matter what you are told, no matter how much it is “required” for you to do so in your job description, you can’t stand behind your job and what was “required” of that job on the day of judgement.

you’ve just managed to insult every veteran and serving member of the military and his or her family who knows how badly wrong you are and how ignorant that comment is.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

no thanks, it feels like another insult…

 

[devoutchristian]

don’t take a police job then. do you understand no one making you do this? do whatever you need to serve your scruples but not at the risk of the public.

do this before you’re hired. do what you’re trained to do or don’t take the job. this isn’t about you.

comparing an ordinary policeman’s job to the nazis means you’ve lost the argument by any standard.

you’ve just managed to insult every veteran and serving member of the military and his or her family who knows how badly wrong you are and how ignorant that comment is.

no thanks, it feels like another insult…

What is your beef with the Catholic doctrine on the supremacy of God?

 

[R1ch4rd]

When did he say that he would be hesitant to take the life of a malefactor if it was necessary to save his life or the life of another? In any case, from what I’ve read, police are trained to use the least force necessary.

This was posted in bold

Always have an attack of scruples on the Job

Then this definition was given.

This was the definition of Scruples, that I found.

Noun
A feeling of doubt or hesitation with regard to the morality or propriety of a course of action.

Verb
Hesitate or be reluctant to do something that one thinks may be wrong.

I think it’s important to question and even reject authority, especially when it clashes with God’s laws. I think it would be detrimental to learn to suppress ones conscience in order to obey “man’s” laws without question.

I put these two together as meaning always hesitate. If an LEO was the only thing between you and harms way, would you want hesitation?

In any case,** from what I’ve read**, police are trained to use the least force necessary

While what you read may be true, the least force is usually un-holstering his service weapon and once un-holstered it’s ready for use. And most don’t have safety selectors.

 

[josh987654321]

Id just like to clarify and correct this post as it will save time in having to reply to all the others.

Your Job involves protecting the safety of our brothers and sisters and as another poster said, you aren’t just protecting the protestors but also the ones they are protesting against.

I have taken quotes from numerous other’s, because it is very important, that while your job description tells you to “protect and serve” you must remember who you must serve before the law and that is God. Don’t compromise the service of God for the service of people (the law) required in your job.

I still agree with this.

The Laws are man made and can often be wrong, so don’t blindly serve the law. Always serve God, if you can serve both, that’s great, but God trumps the other and on the day of judgement you cannot stand behind you badge.

I also still agree with this.

How about Abortion, should he support the woman’s right to choose?

This would be a tough situation, because we all know that the legalisation of Abortion is a law which is wrong, however as a law enforcement officer, it would involve protecting a woman’s right to have an abortion.

Do you think those who work in an abortion clinic should just do what they are being paid to do? to just do their job? I wouldn’t.

If you become a Doctor in some places and a woman wants an Abortion, if you refuse to do one, than you are still required to recommend someone who will, which one of you would do such a thing? I certainly wouldn’t be recommending or pointing her into a direction in which she can commit such an immoral crime. Would you say “Don’t become a doctor”?

The question is to “serve” who? the law? God’s laws always trump man’s laws. It would be difficult being a police officer, because it’s important to keep in mind that we are called to serve God above man.

We are called to serve God, not man, if we can do both than that is a bonus, but God’s laws trump man’s laws.

No. Always have an attack of scruples on the Job. We are called to serve God, on the day of judgement you will not have a badge to stand behind.

So always question the morality, don’t be so blind to obey every foolish order of man. That is how evil thrives. During World War II in Nazi Germany, do you think they could stand behind “I was just following orders” for the genocide of millions?

Remember that God’s laws trump man’s laws.

I’m not sure you do understand. The weapon you carry is not meant to fire warning shots nor is it intended to shoot the gun from an assailants hand or even wound him. If your weapon is drawn and you deem it necessary to use it, your trained to put three rounds in center mass without hesitation. As an LEO, if you need to stop and think if taking
a life is moral when your life and perhaps that of your fellow officer is at stake, better look for a different vocation.

Exactly, the longer you hesitate in a “kill or be killed” situation, the more likely you are going to lose.

So I agree, being a police officer, sometimes you do not have time for hesitation.

This was posted in boldThen this definition was given.

I put these two together as meaning always hesitate. If an LEO was the only thing between you and harms way, would you want hesitation? While what you read may be true, the least force is usually un-holstering his service weapon and once un-holstered it’s ready for use. And most don’t have safety selectors.

True. But obviously some hesitation is necessary, in order to identify your enemies, you wouldn’t pre-fire into a room without first identifying who was in it would you?

It was unlawful to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany during world war II, This is an example of a Law that must be broken in order to serve God’s laws.

romancatholic94, God’s laws and Man’s laws will clash, just remember which one trumps, try and serve them both, but if they are in conflict, remember that God’s laws trump man’s.

I still stand by this.

I am surprised at the number of comments that told you to serve the law without question.** It is in military professions where they teach you to disregard morality and reject God’s laws, where they teach you to just “follow orders” without question and ignore conscience. **You should never ignore conscience no matter what you are told, no matter how much it is “required” for you to do so in your job description, you can’t stand behind your job and what was “required” of that job on the day of judgement.

I apologise for this statement.

I don’t think they teach you to disregard morality and reject God’s laws in our military’s, my deepest apologies.

I was thinking of WW2 and military’s like over in the middle east etc.

I only meant as in they teach you to “follow orders” in these professions, I don’t know whether they teach you to follow orders without question, I just assumed that.

Anyway, again I apologies for this bit, I was not thinking of our military’s etc when I wrote it.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

I’m not sure you do understand. The weapon you carry is not meant to fire warning shots nor is it intended to shoot the gun from an assailants hand or even wound him. If your weapon is drawn and you deem it necessary to use it, your trained to put three rounds in center mass without hesitation. As an LEO, if you need to stop and think if taking
a life is moral when your life and perhaps that of your fellow officer is at stake, better look for a different vocation.

You should always spare their lives if you can.

“A life is moral when your life and perhaps that of your fellow officer is at stake” Now lets look at this from the other side, would you say the same to an SS soldier in Nazi Germany during WWII? I wouldn’t think so.

First you must assess the cause and whether the situation can be resolved without loss of life.

don’t take a police job then. do you understand no one making you do this? do whatever you need to serve your scruples but not at the risk of the public.

Did you know that when someone comes in to get an Abortion, the Doctor if he refuses must direct them to someone who will provide such services? If I said that I wouldn’t do that, would you say don’t become a Doctor?

do this before you’re hired. do what you’re trained to do or don’t take the job. this isn’t about you.

Are you serious? first you must consider what he is trained to do. Doctors are supposedly trained to save lives, yet how many of them practice Abortions or recommend those who will perform an abortion? So no, don’t do what you are trained to do when it conflicts with your conscience.

comparing an ordinary policeman’s job to the nazis means you’ve lost the argument by any standard.

I am saying that people must be wary when they are in a profession that serves man’s laws, because man’s laws can often be wrong. If only more Nazi’s during WWII listened to their conscience’s and didn’t follow the law of the land.

you’ve just managed to insult every veteran and serving member of the military and his or her family who knows how badly wrong you are and how ignorant that comment is.

I apologise for that, I was not thinking of our armed forces when I wrote it, I was thinking of the rebel armed forces in the middle east and those of Nazi Germany in WW2

no thanks, it feels like another insult…

I’ll say it anyway, God Bless you.

Thanks for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

.

I would say, Just remember your reference point, which is God.

Ravi Zacharias explained it very well.

If you are stopped at the traffic lights and you look to the car next to you which is moving, how do you tell if it’s the car next to you or you which is moving? you look at other things such as your speedometer or at a tree or something which is stationary to determine if you are moving or not.

Now what happens, if when you look for these other constants, you find them moving too?

Those without God as a reference point will think they are moving when in fact they are stationary, this is what happens with moral subjectivity, when man’s laws are the highest authority, because they don’t have God as their reference point. So id just like to say, remember to keep your eye on God for your reference point, because the law won’t always be right, you won’t always be able to obey both (we are fortunate in our society as being a police officer, you should be able to obey both God and Man’s laws, however I am not entirely sure as I haven’t studied law) so if that happens, remember to look to God for your point of reference.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[R1ch4rd]

IMO, any comparison between LEO’s and doctors is like comparing apples to bulldozers. A doctor has ample time to hesitate and decide if what he’s doing is against his conscience. If he decides it is, he can call in another doctor and this is even in an ER situation. someone breaking the law knows the consequences and usually knows how far he’s willing to go to avoid arrest. No amount of training can teach a cop to read a criminals mind so the cop is at a disadvantage from the start. Then add the fact that a good number of calls are domestic in which your there to help someone, but that someone can turn on you in an instant.

The same holds true for the Military, especially during WWII. The Nazi’s wore uniforms and that made a soldiers job less difficult. Ever watch “Blackhawk Down”? When no one is wearing a uniform, who do you know who wants you dead? I’ve been in that situation while our platoon walked into a Vietcong village and it was terrifying. The big difference is there will always be far more civilian casualties during a war then during an arrest, and if they do happen, they are much harder to live with. In war, your job is to take life. A cop’s job is to protect it. Ask any cop whether he’s more concerned with an assault weapon or a handgun. He’ll answer the handgun because if he see’s someone walking down the street with an assault rifle, he know’s what the general intention is. A handgun can be carried legally by a licensed law abiding civilian or illegally by a criminal and the cop needs to make a determination which it is.

I think our LEO’s do a commendable job of sparing human life if they can. Perhaps that’s why so many reach “end of watch” before their time.