Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[emseguin]

I think if you cannot find Christ in an irreverant mass and or go to an irreverant mass (ie: hand holding during the Our Father, or chit chat before mass, which is because people do not know, not because they are purposely being irreverant) then you cannot find Christ anywhere.
All of the great Saints blocked out distractions, it makes you stronger. And you can be an example in the midst of the chaos.
Christ is present in all masses, in the Tabernacle, the Holy Sacrifice.
Complaining about all of this and driving 2 hours when you could attend a Novus Ordo is strange. He is in both masses, just the same, always. It is human weakness, pride, and so much more that is the problem here.
And lastly, just because someone holds hands during the Our Father does not mean they are irreverant. How do you know that their prayer and intention is not more solid that yours? No one can judge how someone prays, because they could be giving all the glory and love they can to Christ in that way.

 

[una_fides]

This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

A truly Traditional Catholic will not stop at having a righteous indignation towards the abuses taking place in our Church today. We must live out our faith. There are those whose faith may be shallow and who may stop at the complaining of abuses, etc. However, those people, like others in whom the root of the gospel does not take hold, tend to leave the Church or will be stagnant members. A stagnant Traditional Catholic, however, I’ve found is typically much more spiritual than the vast majority of those who attend the Novus Ordo. Traditional Catholics tend to make much more frequent use of Catholic devotions of the rosary and novenas and attend the sacraments much more frequently, especially confession!

Regarding our attitude towards the many abuses taking place today, Christ himself violently threw those abusing his house out of the temple. I’m not advocating violence in any way, but we should look at sin the way Christ looks at it. I’m sure that very many of the saints of old would be up in arms concerning the abuses that take place today on the many Catholic altars throughout the world. Certainly our Lord is most displeased, and it offends him greatly. How much more offensive to our Lord can a priest be than to commit mortal sins at the altar while making our Lord present? They say that it’s just a little change to the liturgy here or there or that they’re just making the liturgy more pleasing to the people. News flash:: We’re not at mass to be entertained!! We’re there to worship almighty God in the way he has declared that he wants to be worshiped! Is this phariseeism? Certainly not! Our Lord condemned the pharisees for not worshipping both in spirit and in TRUTH. The pharisees made up their own laws contrary to love of neighbor. It was the rigorist attitutude towards these laws that Christ condemned, not the obedience to the law of God and even to the temple laws that Christ himself obeyed and ordered his followers to do the same. You cannot justify violation of the law of Christ’s Holy Catholic Church in the name of “people pleasing” or some “spirit of Vatican II” (which in reality is none other than ths spirit of prince of darkness who in this day is actively tainting and perverting the minds of priests throughout the world in the name of a Church Council).

 

[RyanML]

Complaining about all of this and driving 2 hours when you could attend a Novus Ordo is strange.

A Catholic has the right to attend Holy Mass celebrated according to the mind of the Church. If the local Novus Ordo is more of a friday night shindig than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, then a Catholic should certainly find another parish. Sadly, for many Catholics, the local Novus Ordo becomes an occasion for anger which can lead to uncharitable toughts and feelings. If they can, it would be better for them to find a Mass that is celebrated properly. I have a parish just a couple miles from my home but I drive 25 minutes to go to the traditional Mass because I can not stand to attend the local liturgy. Even if I don’t make it to the latin Mass I will drive the same distance to attend the Cathedral, which has a much more reverent liturgy, comparatively.

He is in both masses, just the same, always. It is human weakness, pride, and so much more that is the problem here.

Very true. It is human weakness and pride that has deprived Catholics of beautiful, reverent, and solemn liturgies for the past 40 years.

And lastly, just because someone holds hands during the Our Father does not mean they are irreverant. How do you know that their prayer and intention is not more solid that yours? No one can judge how someone prays, because they could be giving all the glory and love they can to Christ in that way.

While I believe that hand holding during the Mass is inappropriate, I would never judge another person or their prayer because they participate in it. The most common explanation for the hand holding that I have heard is that it is a symbol of our unity. But this is nonsense. The sign of our unity is there on the altar. It is Jesus Christ, not holding hands, that unites us. It is in receiving Christ in Holy Communion which binds us together in His Mystical Body, not holding hands during the Our Father. But you made a good point which concerns the subject of this thread and that is that even though hand holding during the Our Father is inappropriate, it doesn’t mean we can think ill of those who participate in it or judge their motives and intentions.

 

[RyanML]

A truly Traditional Catholic will not stop at having a righteous indignation towards the abuses taking place in our Church today. We must live out our faith. There are those whose faith may be shallow and who may stop at the complaining of abuses, etc. However, those people, like others in whom the root of the gospel does not take hold, tend to leave the Church or will be stagnant members. A stagnant Traditional Catholic, however, I’ve found is typically much more spiritual than the vast majority of those who attend the Novus Ordo. Traditional Catholics tend to make much more frequent use of Catholic devotions of the rosary and novenas and attend the sacraments much more frequently, especially confession!

Regarding our attitude towards the many abuses taking place today, Christ himself violently threw those abusing his house out of the temple. I’m not advocating violence in any way, but we should look at sin the way Christ looks at it. I’m sure that very many of the saints of old would be up in arms concerning the abuses that take place today on the many Catholic altars throughout the world. Certainly our Lord is most displeased, and it offends him greatly. How much more offensive to our Lord can a priest be than to commit mortal sins at the altar while making our Lord present? They say that it’s just a little change to the liturgy here or there or that they’re just making the liturgy more pleasing to the people. News flash:: We’re not at mass to be entertained!! We’re there to worship almighty God in the way he has declared that he wants to be worshiped! Is this phariseeism? Certainly not! Our Lord condemned the pharisees for not worshipping both in spirit and in TRUTH. The pharisees made up their own laws contrary to love of neighbor. It was the rigorist attitutude towards these laws that Christ condemned, not the obedience to the law of God and even to the temple laws that Christ himself obeyed and ordered his followers to do the same. You cannot justify violation of the law of Christ’s Holy Catholic Church in the name of “people pleasing” or some “spirit of Vatican II” (which in reality is none other than ths spirit of prince of darkness who in this day is actively tainting and perverting the minds of priests throughout the world in the name of a Church Council).

Again, the point of my OP was not that we shouldn’t be so concerned about the abuses but how we relate to the people, lay people in particular, who for the most part do not know any different. Our Lord whipped and chased the money changers out of the temple for they knew they were defiling the House of God out of greed. But He did not chastise those who purchased sacrifices from them. While these good Jews were unknowingly participating in this defilement, their intentions where pure and their motive was simply to offer a sacrifice to God. Many priests and bishops may well be todays money changers but what about all the souls who go to them with pure hearts for the sacraments and for guidance but who do not realize that they are being led astray? For us who have been given the grace to see these things, how do we relate to our brothers and sisters who are not there yet?

 

[almightyservant]

My background: I’m 29, grew up with the Novus Ordo (NO) mass. Only in the recent years have I been really starting to grow in my faith and study. I attribute this to the grace of God. I have found the richness of the faith in traditions of the the Church, and am seeing the NO cheapened in some of the churches I’ve been to.

In search for the richness of the faith, I’ve found the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM). During my search I’ve found what are indeed parts of the NO mass and what are “novelties”, and during that time I did develop a sense of superiority. By the grace of God, I realise this and humble myself. I do some reflection and wonder, “Am I becoming a Pharisee?” Ultimately, I think I am not. I think one can easily become one, but with prayer, scripture, and living according to Christ and the teachings from Him through the Church, one can avoid this.

 

[OhMalley]

…We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

I don’t think it’s a problem of “defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics.” I think it’s a matter of grabbing onto something from the past (which is perfectly OK) without a clue as to why you grab onto it (not OK.)

To give an example I think the great majority of women who cover their heads do so to wear the mantilla as a crown of sorts. Notice I did not say “head covering” or “hat” or something else. I said mantilla. These same women (and men!) who for some reason covet the mantilla don’t seem to care one whit about hats or other head coverings – in fact sometimes they are looked upon as being negative.

They no longer seem to be covering their heads for anything reason other than to perpertuate the traditional of wearing mantillas as a crown of sorts and that’s bad.

 

[joepilgrim]

I joined this Forum to respond to this statement. After scrolling through three pages of opinions, I’m not sure what my original response was, but now I remember.
“Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex operandi.” That is, "the law of prayer, is the law of belief, is the law of operation (behavior).

For myself, I have reinstalled Christ the King over Brother Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior, not my “buddy.”

Vatican II was a bombshell because it pretended to continue with the Catholic Church teachings because it was “pastoral,” but in reality it changed both prayer and belief by its practices (behavior.) I guess this was the first time in Church History, that the Holy Spirit was acceptably ambiguous.

May I ask this question, when was the last time each of us went to confession?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I joined this Forum to respond to this statement. After scrolling through three pages of opinions, I’m not sure what my original response was, but now I remember.
“Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex operandi.” That is, "the law of prayer, is the law of belief, is the law of operation (behavior).

For myself, I have reinstalled Christ the King over Brother Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior, not my “buddy.”

Vatican II was a bombshell because it pretended to continue with the Catholic Church teachings because it was “pastoral,” but in reality it changed both prayer and belief by its practices (behavior.) I guess this was the first time in Church History, that the Holy Spirit was acceptably ambiguous.

May I ask this question, when was the last time each of us went to confession?

Sadly, not for quite a while. My last parish had Confessions a half hour before every Mass, but it’s nowhere near that convenient around here. Confession is scheduled at very inconvenient times, and I’ve tried to go more than once and found it canceled in favor of other activities.

 

[SHW]

i asked the same to my priest and his answer was: never… very shocking to me. it is almost if they see this Mass is a horrible thing. i wonder where they got that from.

Perhaps it is because they have no desire to learn the rubrics, etc. of the TLM because they heard/saw that they are difficult to learn. Since the NO is a valid Mass and they are familiar/comfortable with this Mass, they prefer it. Perhaps some priests today have never even attended a TLM in their lifetime and see no valid reason why they should start now as they do not like change any more than the next person.
**
I wonder how the people reacted to the new Mass changes at the time of the Council of Trent when it mandated the TLM exclusively for the Latin Rite? ** I can assure you, knowing human nature as it actually is, that there were many disgruntled people who lived during that upheaval also and who did not want to abandon the familiar “comfortable” Masses that they were used to.

Change is not easy for many people even if the changes are accepted or mandated by the legitimate Church hierarchy chosen by God.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Perhaps it is because they have no desire to learn the rubrics, etc. of the TLM because they heard/saw that they are difficult to learn. Since the NO is a valid Mass and they are familiar/comfortable with this Mass, they prefer it. Perhaps some priests today have never even attended a TLM in their lifetime and see no valid reason why they should start now as they do not like change any more than the next person.
**
I wonder how the people reacted to the new Mass changes at the time of the Council of Trent when it mandated the TLM exclusively** for the Latin Rite? I can assure you, knowing human nature as it actually is, that there were many disgruntled people who lived during that upheaval also and who did not want to abandon the familiar “comfortable” Masses that they were used to.

Change is not easy for many people even if the changes are accepted or mandated by the legitimate Church hierarchy chosen by God.

no, actually he is italian and he knows really well latin. he is one of the liberals franciscan that does as he pleases.

 

[RyanML]

I joined this Forum to respond to this statement. After scrolling through three pages of opinions, I’m not sure what my original response was, but now I remember.
“Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex operandi.” That is, "the law of prayer, is the law of belief, is the law of operation (behavior).

For myself, I have reinstalled Christ the King over Brother Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior, not my “buddy.”

Vatican II was a bombshell because it pretended to continue with the Catholic Church teachings because it was “pastoral,” but in reality it changed both prayer and belief by its practices (behavior.) I guess this was the first time in Church History, that the Holy Spirit was acceptably ambiguous.

May I ask this question, when was the last time each of us went to confession?

Of course our Lord Jesus Christ should be King and Lord of our lives but He is also our friend. That is not Vatican II nonsense but the very words of our Lord. “I will not now call you servants…but I have called you friends” (John 15:15). This does not mean a best buddy like it sounds to modern ears but rather that we are called to intimate union with God in Jesus Christ.

I just went to confession yesterday

 

[SHW]

no, actually he is italian and he knows really well latin. he is one of the liberals franciscan that does as he pleases.

Are all Franciscans required to know, speak, and write Latin? If so, I did not know this. I do know that Latin is a dead language and it is not like modern Italian. There are not very many people in the world today who are proficient in Latin. This is one of the reasons that the Pope’s encyclicals take so long to write and publish. New Latin words have to be “invented” to explain our current words which describe new technologies and events.

I was speaking of all NO priests in general, but it seems that you think that your priest is too liberal and has little respect for the Church hierarchy and for Church tradition. Sadly, there are too many just like him and they are a scandal.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think if you cannot find Christ in an irreverant mass and or go to an irreverant mass (ie: hand holding during the Our Father, or chit chat before mass, which is because people do not know, not because they are purposely being irreverant) then you cannot find Christ anywhere.
All of the great Saints blocked out distractions, it makes you stronger. And you can be an example in the midst of the chaos.
Christ is present in all masses, in the Tabernacle, the Holy Sacrifice.
Complaining about all of this and driving 2 hours when you could attend a Novus Ordo is strange. He is in both masses, just the same, always. It is human weakness, pride, and so much more that is the problem here.
And lastly, just because someone holds hands during the Our Father does not mean they are irreverant. How do you know that their prayer and intention is not more solid that yours? No one can judge how someone prays, because they could be giving all the glory and love they can to Christ in that way.

Is this not what the good sisters and brothers taught me before Vatican II? All that talk about “giving it up”. I’m just supposed to block out seeing kids gulping the Eucharist as if it was merely a Neco wafer. Yes, I am more than aware it is poor catechesis but why is nothing done about it? Our Lord is indeed in the Tabernacle and people walk back and forth in front of it without a care in the world. Yes, poor catechesis once again. Holding hands may not be irreverant but it is an affectation - one adopted from our Protestant bretheren and one not seen until the late 80s. Chit-chat before Mass? Well, yes, I guess they really didn’t intend to be irreverant but a conversation about Preparation H suppositories takes the cake.

So I guess I just oughta roll over and play dead. My prayers are for naught. And so the next time I see liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense up to and around the altar followed by the liturgical dancers with poles and ribbons all to the driving beat of drums and guitars, I will compose myself and remind myself that Our Lord is in the Tabernacle…and I will promptly lose my composure because Our Lord is, indeed, in the Tabernacle.

So, shall I ask Father to incorporate elements of the Feast of Fools from the Middle Ages? Drag a donkey into church? Have the drummers and guitarists play "Orientis Partibus with the chorus of "Hail Sir Asne hail? If the medieval Church cracked down on such practices, can our Holy Father be trying to tell us something?

 

[stevusmagnus]

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor.

Church laws, customs, and rubrics must be constantly defended because they are constantly violated. They are important as they stand as guardians of the law of prayer and we believe as we pray. Form of prayer affects belief. We have seen through the crisis in the church that an inch given to liturgical novelty and laxity soon becomes not a yard but a football field of abuses.

To fight to enforce rules that give glory and honor to God is to show love for Him and charity for one’s neighbor, who, if properly disposed, should profit from charitable correction and change any errors he had been committing.

 

[una_fides]

Again, the point of my OP was not that we shouldn’t be so concerned about the abuses but how we relate to the people, lay people in particular, who for the most part do not know any different. Our Lord whipped and chased the money changers out of the temple for they knew they were defiling the House of God out of greed. But He did not chastise those who purchased sacrifices from them. While these good Jews were unknowingly participating in this defilement, their intentions where pure and their motive was simply to offer a sacrifice to God. Many priests and bishops may well be todays money changers but what about all the souls who go to them with pure hearts for the sacraments and for guidance but who do not realize that they are being led astray? For us who have been given the grace to see these things, how do we relate to our brothers and sisters who are not there yet?

Pray and teach by words and by example.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are all Franciscans required to know, speak, and write Latin? If so, I did not know this. I do know that Latin is a dead language and it is not like modern Italian. There are not very many people in the world today who are proficient in Latin. This is one of the reasons that the Pope’s encyclicals take so long to write and publish. New Latin words have to be “invented” to explain our current words which describe new technologies and events.

I was speaking of all NO priests in general, but it seems that you think that your priest is too liberal and has little respect for the Church hierarchy and for Church tradition. Sadly, there are too many just like him and they are a scandal.

Latin cannot be a dead language since still today many words derive from Latin and still used today.

 

[ac_claire]

We are Catholics. We can’t just discharge our heritage as if it never existed. I am an anthropologist and historian by training. We can’t just ignore that which came before. what the Protestants did that 500 years ago.

This is the main thing that bothers me. Being Catholic is a beautiful thing. It used to be that you knew it was a Catholic church when you saw it. You couldn’t mistake it for anything else. You could never mistake the Mass for anything else. Now, so many of the churches are looking like the Lutheran or Anglican or Methodist church down the street. The Mass as it’s celebrated in many places could be mistaken for for any protestant high church service (minus the consecration). Same lectionary, same verse and response, same songs, same building…

If we’re going to promote ecumenism and the denominations are going to slowly become more similar, shouldn’t they all start to look more Catholic instead of Catholicism looking more and more protestant…?

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is the main thing that bothers me. Being Catholic is a beautiful thing. It used to be that you knew it was a Catholic church when you saw it. You couldn’t mistake it for anything else. You could never mistake the Mass for anything else. Now, so many of the churches are looking like the Lutheran or Anglican or Methodist church down the street. The Mass as it’s celebrated in many places could be mistaken for for any protestant high church service (minus the consecration). Same lectionary, same verse and response, same songs, same building…

If we’re going to promote ecumenism and the denominations are going to slowly become more similar, shouldn’t they all start to look more Catholic instead of Catholicism looking more and more protestant…?

it is funny how the CC became more protestants througout this whole ecumenism instead of protestants becoming more Catholics. interesting indeed. how did that happened?

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, I have been reading this forum for a while, and I have several observations about the Original Post.

There are a lot of good points that traditional Catholics have made concerning where the Church is today, and where our fellow Catholics are. Our fellow Catholics, the pew potatoes, largely don’t believe what the Church teaches, if you read the polls.

The NO Mass, as delivered in a great many parishes, is the Father N show and not what is intended.

There is a cycle, a swirl, of lack of reverence, lack of belief, lack of catechesis, etc.

However, when traditional Catholics describe their faith and church-going life, I have to say that the majority come across as holier than thou and very selfish. Is that pharisitical? Maybe.

I am glad that you guys have found something that enhances your relationship with our Savior. You just come across as, “Yes, finally I’ve found a Mass holy enough for me”. I don’t know what to make of that. Shouldn’t all Masses be the same as all others?

I don’t mean this as a flame, but as a real reply to the OP.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Well, I have been reading this forum for a while, and I have several observations about the Original Post.

There are a lot of good points that traditional Catholics have made concerning where the Church is today, and where our fellow Catholics are. Our fellow Catholics, the pew potatoes, largely don’t believe what the Church teaches, if you read the polls.

The NO Mass, as delivered in a great many parishes, is the Father N show and not what is intended.

There is a cycle, a swirl, of lack of reverence, lack of belief, lack of catechesis, etc.

However, when traditional Catholics describe their faith and church-going life, I have to say that the majority come across as holier than thou and very selfish. Is that pharisitical? Maybe.

I am glad that you guys have found something that enhances your relationship with our Savior. You just come across as, “Yes, finally I’ve found a Mass holy enough for me”. I don’t know what to make of that. Shouldn’t all Masses be the same as all others?

I don’t mean this as a flame, but as a real replay to the OP.

do you really think that this is all about us?

this is all about God. we want what is best for Him. we should give Him the best. not because He asks for it but because it is our duty to recognize Him is our King. if the kings of this earth receives what is best how much more should our King Jesus get?

our King deserves all our reverence and obedience, the best palace with all its beauty. the shepards He gave us must lead the people to do that and to believe all the King said. if they are not doing this then something is wrong.

again, this is not about us, it is about Him. He died a horribel death, He suffered all kinds of humiliation. today, we glorify Him by giving Him the best from this earth.

Blessings.