Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[PJM]

=RyanML -This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. ***How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?/***QUOTE]

Always with charity and always in TRUTH. Is witholding thee truth charity to ones neighbor?

The best Bible we can expose to the light of THEE truth is how we, me and you, know, live and share our faith. Putting into practice, living what we beleive is the LIVING GOSPEL!

 

[SHW]

What do you mean by “OF” Church? Is this Church obedient to the pope?

 

[Indyann]

Brother, I’m not so sure we actually disagree, though we might have different liturgical preferences. I am not in any way saying that you should be forced to abandon those traditions which you prefer, or to “offer up” having them shunted aside by so many. I have been a consistent supporter of having the TLM, and its surrounding traditions, available to all who want them.

All of us, even within our preferred form, will occasionally have those things present that aren’t completely to our liking, or may not be to our liking on some specific day. We’ll have the days when we really need the Passion but find the Resurrection being the focus, or the other way around. We’ll have musical selections that don’t exactly suit our taste, even if they are within our preferred genre. We’ll have priests that don’t address the topics in their homilies that way we feel they should have, finding too much emphasis in one direction as compared to the other, or just finding the speaking style to be unbearable regardless of the topic. Those kinds of things we do just kind of have to “offer up”.

When I talk about getting too attached to the traditions of men, I am not referring to being forced to abandon those to which we are attached; I am referring to the constant sniping that goes on here in denigrating those that OTHERS are attached to but which are legitimate and acceptable within the Church’s eyes. There is a great deal of “superiority complex” going on in many cases with things being claimed to be objectively or intrinsically “better” about disciplines that have changed many times through the Church’s history, very often without even considering that they are often the norm in some or all of the Eastern liturgies which are every bit as Catholic as our Latin rite liturgies. It is that air of superiority, with its attendant denigration of anyone else’s preference and great lack of basic charity, that takes on the Pharisaical aroma, the whole “thank you Lord for not making me like those others.”

I have no bone to pick with you or anyone else over your preferences, and completely support your right to have access to them. I only long for all of us to have that right without having to endure being attacked for them.

Peace,

Thank you, John. I am sure you speak for many.

 

[wisdomseeker]

That is the slippery slope we have dealt with, you and I, for nigh unto five years. I contend that the “traditions of men” is that self-same sword which cuts both ways.

The baby got thrown out with the bathwater in 1967 and everything that has come after has become “tradition”. Why else would I have been instructed to “offer it up”? You and I both know that receiving the Eucharist in the hand didn’t come until the late 70s. You and I both know the business of hand-holding, etc. didn’t come until the late 80s. Yet we have all of these posters who think that that is exactly the way things have been since the inception of Vatican II. The first time I saw liturgical dancing is when I sang for our diocese’s 25th anniversary in 1988.

Within the “spirit and culture” of which I grew up, which “traditions of men” am I supposed to adhere to? Am I supposed to simply forget that when we entered into the presence of the Most High that we kept our mouths shut? Am I supposed to simply forget that we genuflected whenever we crossed before the Tabernacle? Am I supposed to simply forget that, as a high school student, any time we passed in front of a Catholic church in New Orleans, we made the sign of the cross in respect of the Eucharistic presence?

My friend, you and I continue to agree to disagree. But the “traditions of men” cuts both ways.

Pax te cum, Johannes!

\

that is what the liberals wants us to belive. i dont think they are even willing to hear what the holy father has to say. they dont want to change their ways.

i remember my priest saying one time that he was afraid that BXVI was going to call off the VII.

they like to enjoy the freedom that the world offers just like the pagans. they no longer hold the Tradition of obedience to the teachings of the Church.

i can tell you that the music i hear in my parish is like a radio songs. they go through the Gloria so fast that we cannot keep up. it is a sacrilege.

listen to father pacwa last night was encouraged. he described the new music in the church today is all about us. how great we are and how God is luck to have us. this describes the music i listen in my parish. “we are the bread of life” , we are this, we are that. these are the kind of music that i hear. and that piano is so loud that is becomes very annoying…

i want to use a ear plug. may be is not a bad idea.

Sacred Music for all Catholics. musicasacra.com/

 

[Layman]

listen to father pacwa last night was encouraged. he described the new music in the church today is all about us. how great we are and how God is luck to have us. this describes the music i listen in my parish. “we are the bread of life” , we are this, we are that.

That is an interesting remark. There’s a trick, in showbusiness, to appeal to the audience by getting them up on stage or having them sing along. Get them more involved. Make it more about them. Works in marketing too. In showbiz, it’s usually the sign of a bad performer; he can’t carry the show by himself.

Or it could just be mirroring the insane self-preoccupation of the times. Or a Protestant notion of ‘we’re already saved’. Or all of these things.

We’ve moved pretty far from a sacred rite performed in fear and trembling, assisted by a laity keenly singing the Kyrie and meaning every word of it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

When I talk about getting too attached to the traditions of men, I am not referring to being forced to abandon those to which we are attached; I am referring to the constant sniping that goes on here in denigrating those that OTHERS are attached to but which are legitimate and acceptable within the Church’s eyes. There is a great deal of “superiority complex” going on in many cases with things being claimed to be objectively or intrinsically “better” about disciplines that have changed many times through the Church’s history, very often without even considering that they are often the norm in some or all of the Eastern liturgies which are every bit as Catholic as our Latin rite liturgies. It is that air of superiority, with its attendant denigration of anyone else’s preference and great lack of basic charity, that takes on the Pharisaical aroma, the whole “thank you Lord for not making me like those others.”

I wish I had an exposure to the Eastern liturgies. I have only had exposure to the Eastern Orthodox liturgy for Holy Saturday in 1977 and I cried because I recognized all we had lost.

I recognize the “superiority complex” which you describe, John, but, in fairness, there is a similar complex coming from those who tell me to “offer it up”. On the one edge of the sword which cuts both ways are those with the “superiority complex” and on the other edge are the “I’m OK; you’re OK” so anything, anything you want to do in Mass, if it feels good, do it.

Objectively, what came out of Vatican II and what was done in the “spirit of Vatican II” are two different things. On the other side of the equation are people equally devoted to the OF as it exists in 2009. They see their experience as the norm and many a) have never experienced a TLM and b) have no idea of what the OF looked like on the First Sunday of Advent 1969 when it was officially adopted. You and I, John, do know what it looked like and it did not look like what most Masses in most suburban parishes look like today. There has been a tremendous amount of change in the last forty years.

Yet, most every time I open my mouth to speak, I am assailed by folks telling me that I should “offer it up”. That I am some kind of knuckle dragging liturgical Neandertal who only wants to pray the rosary during Mass, etc. Is this not the counterpart of the “superiority complex” you describe? To put it more plainly, is this not the pot calling the kettle black? And, yes, John, there is a cadre of folks who support the OF and who routinely use similar tactics to those who espouse the “superiority complex” of the TLM.

You made mention a few posts back that you and I walked the same path and then our paths split. I can see you over there brother John and we are still within hollerin’ distance. I think the Holy Father recognizes that too. I can’t speak for those with the “superiority complex”. I can only speak for myself - someone who was happy with parish life and the TLM as it was in 1967 when things began to change.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

However, when traditional Catholics describe their faith and church-going life, I have to say that the majority come across as holier than thou and very selfish. Is that pharisitical? Maybe.

I am glad that you guys have found something that enhances your relationship with our Savior. You just come across as, “Yes, finally I’ve found a Mass holy enough for me”. I don’t know what to make of that. Shouldn’t all Masses be the same as all others?

I don’t mean this as a flame, but as a real reply to the OP.[/QUOT*E]

That’s what I used to think about people who go to TLM, before I actually went myself. I listened to other people’s prejudice and had a fear of that Mass. I now understand better the attitude and passion surrounding the TLM. People LOVE it, it nourishes them in a way that the NO does not, it connects them with centuries of tradition and shows them that it is all about God. Those who love the Traditional Mass don’t understand how others don’t feel the same way about something so beautiful and spiritual and are happy with its stripped down version.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

However, when traditional Catholics describe their faith and church-going life, I have to say that the majority come across as holier than thou and very selfish. Is that pharisitical? Maybe.

I am glad that you guys have found something that enhances your relationship with our Savior. You just come across as, “Yes, finally I’ve found a Mass holy enough for me”. I don’t know what to make of that. Shouldn’t all Masses be the same as all others?

I don’t mean this as a flame, but as a real reply to the OP.[/QUOT*E]

That’s what I used to think about people who go to TLM, before I actually went myself. I listened to other people’s prejudice and had a fear of that Mass. I now understand better the attitude and passion surrounding the TLM. People LOVE it, it nourishes them in a way that the NO does not, it connects them with centuries of tradition and shows them that it is all about God. Those who love the Traditional Mass don’t understand how others don’t feel the same way about something so beautiful and spiritual and are happy with its stripped down version.

ITA. If you’ve never experienced a TLM, it’s hard to understand the passion behind those who want to see more availability of that liturgy. As a student, I was unaware and largely unappreciative of what I had, but believe me I sure knew what I was missing when it was no longer available to me. I wasn’t able to get back to one for over 25 years, and I swear, the first TLM I attended as an adult moved me to tears. I was HOME. I was worshipping God in the way I had been raised to do it, and it meant everything to me.

I’m no longer living close enough to a TLM to attend weekly, and I miss it dreadfully.

 

[ncjohn]

IYet, most every time I open my mouth to speak, I am assailed by folks telling me that I should “offer it up”. That I am some kind of knuckle dragging liturgical Neandertal who only wants to pray the rosary during Mass, etc. Is this not the counterpart of the “superiority complex” you describe? To put it more plainly, is this not the pot calling the kettle black? And, yes, John, there is a cadre of folks who support the OF and who routinely use similar tactics to those who espouse the “superiority complex” of the TLM.

I couldn’t agree more, brother. There are many on both sides indulging in the same type of thinking and labeling of everyone who happens to have a different preference. I hope you do realize though that I do not count myself among them, nor do I think that anyone should have to be “offering it up”. I truly am hoping that SP will bring back the option to each of us to attend the form we prefer.

However, human nature being what it is, I don’t expect even if that happens that we will stop seeing the “my liturgy is better than your liturgy” stuff. I fear we will always possess that temptation that even those walking in intimate communion with Jesus had, to want to rain down thunder on those “not of our band”. Consciousness has evolved in many ways over time, but when it comes to the need to “win” or “be right” only by someone else losing and being wrong, our basest instincts are still much intact.

I certainly don’t see you as a neanderthal and only wish for you what I wish for myself. I see you as a devoted son of the Church who was handed the fuzzy end of the lollipop and told you had to find it sweet. I continue to pray that you will get what you desire.

Peace,

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

ITA. *If you’ve never experienced a TLM, it’s hard to understand the passion behind those who want to see more availability of that liturgy. I wasn’t able to get back to one for over 25 years, and I swear, the first TLM I attended as an adult moved me to tears. I was HOME. *

I was born in the 70s and my only experience of Mass was NO. Never even heard of TLM until I started reading Catholic blogs. So out of curiosity I looked for videos of TLM on youtube. My first reaction was shock and amazement. I was stunned by its beauty and depth and felt terrible pain for what I’ve been denied all these years. I cried too, feeling angry and sad at the same time. Just watching that video made me feel like I was home. The Mass suddenly made sense.

 

[almightyservant]

Contra Mundum,

I was born in 1979, and my experience has been similiar to yours. I have been missing out on the richness of Roman Catholicism. There were times when I wondered as a teenager, why not join an Eastern Church? The Eastern Church has so much more substance. It’s something special.

Then through this forum, I found traditional Catholicism and the Tridentine Mass. I went to my first one last Sunday. It was a little strange only because I was unfamiliar to it, but I absolutely love it!

After the Mass, I thought, “THIS IS ROMAN CATHOLICISM”.
And this is something so great that wasn’t made available to me for so many years. How dissappointing. Thank God for He has shown his greatness to me. I am actually excited to go to Mass every Sunday, despite the 45-60 minute drive.

I do have a fear of becoming a “Pharisee”, and what I try to do is to practise humility. I don’t think I am better than others by attending the Tridentine Mass, instead I think I have found the better tool to receive God’s grace. Now it’s up me with how well I use this gift from God.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Almighty servant,

this is my attitude too. I am simply grateful to God for leading me there. It will help me grow in faith and love. As with potentially any other thing, there is possibility of increase in pride too. Prayer is the answer.

Isn’t it amazing how God leads people to worship Him through so many weird and wonderful means? (Long live the internet!) I grew up in a communist country without religious upbringing in my family, and now I am turning into an ardent supporter of Catholic tradition Funny how things happen in life.
Also, many churchgoers are shocked by the number of young(er) people at TLM. They can’t understand why.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Almighty servant,

this is my attitude too. I am simply grateful to God for leading me there. It will help me grow in faith and love. As with potentially any other thing, there is possibility of increase in pride too. Prayer is the answer.

Isn’t it amazing how God leads people to worship Him through so many weird and wonderful means? (Long live the internet!) I grew up in a communist country without religious upbringing in my family, and now I am turning into an ardent supporter of Catholic tradition Funny how things happen in life.
Also, many churchgoers are shocked by the number of young(er) people at TLM. They can’t understand why.

Amem.

 

[SHW]

What does OF stand for? Thanks.

 

[jeanannemarie]

This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

I wanted to interject something positive here. This forum is a place where we can all have our say about what we think and learn from each other. We get very strong at times about things and we " vent" here. I don’t think it means that any of us go into our Parishes each weekend spouting all our opinions. Probably most all of us act charitably in public (or we would be writing from institutions.) This is the place we are allowed to get emotional about what we believe and it is good we have that. I guess I am just trying to say that even the most opinionated on our forums most likely never show it in a negative way in daily life. Being out in the world is a little different than writing on the forum. We are all trying to sort things out.

 

[jeanannemarie]

What does OF stand for? Thanks.

Ordinary Form as in the regular type Mass since Vatican II

 

[r4j]

I wanted to interject something positive here. This forum is a place where we can all have our say about what we think and learn from each other. We get very strong at times about things and we " vent" here. I don’t think it means that any of us go into our Parishes each weekend spouting all our opinions. Probably most all of us act charitably in public (or we would be writing from institutions.) This is the place we are allowed to get emotional about what we believe and it is good we have that. I guess I am just trying to say that even the most opinionated on our forums most likely never show it in a negative way in daily life. Being out in the world is a little different than writing on the forum. We are all trying to sort things out.

Yes, I believe so as well. I hope so. There’s already so much division in the world. But as I heard a priest say once - ‘The division in the world starts with the division within individuals.’ We have to heal ourselves first if we want to heal the world.

 

[SHW]

Ordinary Form as in the regular type Mass since Vatican II

Thanks!

 

[PaulinVA]

Contra Mundum;5480048:

ITA. If you’ve never experienced a TLM, it’s hard to understand the passion behind those who want to see more availability of that liturgy. As a student, I was unaware and largely unappreciative of what I had, but believe me I sure knew what I was missing when it was no longer available to me. I wasn’t able to get back to one for over 25 years, and I swear, the first TLM I attended as an adult moved me to tears. I was HOME. I was worshipping God in the way I had been raised to do it, and it meant everything to me.

I’m no longer living close enough to a TLM to attend weekly, and I miss it dreadfully.

To mkingdomlvr and contra mundum. I am not doubting the beauty of the Mass. I was commenting about what I perceive as the attitude of the attendees that post here. Just a call for a little humility.

 

[brotherhrolf]

mkingdomlvr;5480116:

Just a call for a little humility.

I hear this all the time and am simply puzzled. As I pointed out earlier in this thread pride is a two edged sword which cuts both ways. Unless I miss my guess, this is the Traditional Catholicism forum. One would expect to read posts in praise of the TLM and, indeed, there are many. There is also a forum entitled Liturgy and Sacraments. One would expect to read posts in praise of the OF and, indeed, there are many.

I do not notice traditional Catholics on L&S calling for humility from adherents of the OF. I do notice adherents of the OF criticizing Catholics who have a) discovered the Mass of the Ages or b) (like myself) had that Mass taken away from them in 1967.

PaulinVA, were you around on the First Sunday of Advent in December, 1969 when the OF was formally installed? I was. I was 18. The OF on that day is a different Mass from what you see in most parishes today. A whole lot has changed in the last 40 years.

It seems to me that there are an equal number of folks who adhere to the OF who sit in judgment against those who adhere to the TLM. There’s that sword which cuts both ways.

It is possible to discuss differences without resorting to “wearing one’s feelings on one’s sleeve”. It is possible to remember that there are still significant numbers of us still alive who were comfortable with the TLM under which we grew up as well as significant numbers of us who embraced the NO in December, 1969.

If those of us who sat in a pew on that First Sunday of Advent in December of 1969 can discuss our differences surely everyone else can.

Let’s bury that sword. OK?