Biblical Reference to the Rapture

[paul_c]

It is the written voice of God revealed to mankind and is able to lead one to salvation and godly living; that is powerful and authoritative. Nothing else can make that claim and stick. Have you ever studied the words “scripture(s)” and see the character and nature that is displayed? The attributes are “godly”; perhaps for good reason.

The Catholic Church leads all men to heaven. It was commissioned to do the by Jesus himself. If you like, you can verify that in the Bible (Matthew 28: 18-20) The bible is one of the Catholic Church’s tools for doing that. Without the Catholic Church, there would be no bible. The bible,without proper interpretation, has led many astray. Do you not recognize that Satan used scripture to tempt Jesus in Luke 4: 1-13. Surely you recognize that Satan retains the capability of twisting scripture to mislead those who try to understand it for themselves. Even now, many "true believers: have been mislead to believe that faith is all that matters and sin is inconsequential. That is why we need the Church. It alone has been commissioned to teach the truth about salvation and to administer the sacraments that are required for attaining eternal life.

 

[Sonny69]

How do you believe the Gospel without faith?

The Biblical order found, as an example, throughout the book of Acts is first- hearing the gospel second - upon hearing, then believing the gospel(by faith all by itself) with a heart of repentance and thirdly - receiving the holy spirit (He convicts and also seals till the day of redemption-many do not know or believe that even though “it is written”), then the command or the ordinance of water baptism follows. This outwardly expresses the new association with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection which is something back then that could and did get you killed and in many places around the world still does.

 

[paul_c]

Did not say that God is restricted to only scripture however scripture says it is the word of God.

All of scripture is God but not all of God is in scripture.

Exactly, so why do you limit your understanding of God to scripture alone? The Catholic Church was commissioned by Jesus to teach about salvation, administer the sacraments, and to do works of mercy. Why don’t you listen to the Church when it explains how to understand scripture? And why don’t you believe that what the Church teaches is truth. Why do you only accept what it writes, but not what it says?

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Biblical order found, as an example, throughout the book of Acts is first- hearing the gospel second - upon hearing, then believing the gospel(by faith all by itself) with a heart of repentance and thirdly - receiving the holy spirit (He convicts and also seals till the day of redemption-many do not know or believe that even though “it is written”), then the command or the ordinance of water baptism follows. This outwardly expresses the new association with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection which is something back then that could and did get you killed and in many places around the world still does.

Sounds nice, until you start thinking about the consequence of this “Biblical order” to unborn victims of abortion and all those who meet their earthly end before hearing the Gospel.

 

[paul_c]

You have taken one verse out of context from the rest of the chapter otherwise scripture contradicts itself and we know that it doesn’t. So here goes, minus fancy colors and bold letters.

The context is that first there is faith and then follows works. They do not happen simultaneously. Faith is given as a result of believing the Gospel and giving our wills to God. Grace, faith, salvation come as free gifts. From that rebirth we grow in our salvation as evidenced by works, and fruits. James challenged that church to repent of hypocrisy in giving preference to the rich. He challenged them by saying that if their claim of faith is true they should be demonstrating growth as evidenced by works of regarding every believer the same.

One chooses Christ by believing the gospel. Grace, faith, and salvation follow.

I’m sorry, but first of all you confuse being saved with Going to heaven. they are not synonyms because you can be saved, apostacize and not go to heaven.

God calls to all of us to do his will through conscience without any merit on our part. This is true. St. Paul discusses this in Romans. He gives us life, free will, reason, skills, and grace. if we use these free gifts and come to believe in Jesus, then we still have several things we need to do to gain eternal life, all of them described in scripture. We need to be baptized (Acts 2, John 3) . we need to eat his body and drink his blood (the eucharist)- John 6) we need to follow the commandments (matthew 19), We need to love (1 corinthians 13, John 15), we need to do works of mercy (Matthew 25) and we need to persevere in doing these things.

 

[Cruxis117]

You have taken one verse out of context from the rest of the chapter otherwise scripture contradicts itself and we know that it doesn’t. So here goes, minus fancy colors and bold letters.

The context is that first there is faith and then follows works. They do not happen simultaneously. Faith is given as a result of believing the Gospel and giving our wills to God. Grace, faith, salvation come as free gifts. From that rebirth we grow in our salvation as evidenced by works, and fruits. James challenged that church to repent of hypocrisy in giving preference to the rich. He challenged them by saying that if their claim of faith is true they should be demonstrating growth as evidenced by works of regarding every believer the same.

One chooses Christ by believing the gospel. Grace, faith, and salvation follow.

*6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. *

(James 2:16-26)

And I have done my homework. It turns out that I’ve been mistaken. In the CCC, it claims that the Catholic Church teaches that Faith is both a divine grace and a human act. So, I’ll stick with the Church. Thank you for helping inspire my study into this matter.

 

[gtrenewed]

No, it’s not hard to believe at all. But if you actually study that Big Bang you will see that matter, energy, space and even time did not exist before it—much less the Bible!

Jesus, who is the Word of God spoken of in John 1, certainly did exist before then as God. But God is a spirit; spirits are not material. The Bible, however, is material. Thus, God is not the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication that the Bible is a preincarnate Jesus. Frankly, that kind of reasoning is Islamic and thus foreign to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

If you really think the Bible is anything other than words written down by men (albeit under inspiration by the Holy Spirit), ponder this:

[bibledrb]1 Cor 1:16[/bibledrb]

If God is omniscient how could He forget who Paul baptized? Those are clearly Paul’s words, not God’s.

Are you saying that God did not know what the bible would say before time existed?
Since He knew what it would say then it existed in Him obviously not materially yet it existed spiritually. Just as angels really exist, not materially but spiritually.

Just because Paul forgot who he baptized does not mean it is not the word of God. Paul is talking about himself not God and it is inspired.

The word of God is living and active…

 

[gtrenewed]

Exactly, so why do you limit your understanding of God to scripture alone? The Catholic Church was commissioned by Jesus to teach about salvation, administer the sacraments, and to do works of mercy. Why don’t you listen to the Church when it explains how to understand scripture? And why don’t you believe that what the Church teaches is truth. Why do you only accept what it writes, but not what it says?

Never said that I limited myself to understanding God by scripture alone. However, all sources are in harmony with scripture.

 

[gtrenewed]

*6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? *
*15 *
*If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, *
*16 *
*and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? *
*17 *
*So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. *
*18 *
*Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. *
*19 *
*You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. *
*20 *
*Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? *
*21 *
*Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? *
*22 *
*You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. *
*23 *
*Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” *
*24 *
*See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. *
*25 *
*And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? *
*26 *
*For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. *

(James 2:16-26)

And I have done my homework. It turns out that I’ve been mistaken. In the CCC, it claims that the Catholic Church teaches that Faith is both a divine grace and a human act. So, I’ll stick with the Church. Thank you for helping inspire my study into this matter.

Thank you for sharing this. I’m glad to hear that our discussion resulted in further study, that’s being a Berean. I also study more following these interchanges. Scripture calls it iron sharpening iron. God Bless.

 

[gtrenewed]

[bibledrb]Hebrews 10:29[/bibledrb]

Paul is addressing those who were “sanctified” by the “blood” of the “Son of God.” You say that sanctification comes through belief.

Paul is addressing those who have rejected the gospel no longer believers.

 

[gtrenewed]

Where is “Jesus” mentioned in the Old Testament? That was my question all along, sorry if you misunderstood.

Jesus, the messiah, is foretold in every book of the OT. Paul used the OT to prove to the jews that Jesus is the Messiah. There are hundreds of prophecies concerning Jesus in the OT.

My apologies if I missed something because your question should be the most basic of christian knowledge.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Are you saying that God did not know what the bible would say before time existed?

God knew the infinite possibilities of what the Bible could say just as He knew the infinite ways that Moses might express what God wanted to communicate. But humans are not able to understand infinite possibilities, at least not in our fallen state. So God used human authors who chose the words that would best communicate Divine revelation to the culture and circumstances.

I recommend you take an advanced physics class that includes an intro to quantum mechanics.

Since He knew what it would say then it existed in Him obviously not materially yet it existed spiritually.

No. The Bible is not a spirit but an expression of a spirit (namely God) made manifest by human hands. Because of that second part the Bible did not exist until it was actually written.

Just as angels really exist, not materially but spiritually.

Angels are beings. The Bible is not.

Just because Paul forgot who he baptized does not mean it is not the word of God. Paul is talking about himself not God and it is inspired.

Correct, but this shows that there is a human author who is working under Divine guidance with quite a bit of expressive freedom.

The word of God is living and active…

True, but that doesn’t make the Bible the 4th person of the Trinity.

 

[Vince1022]

Jesus, the messiah, is foretold in every book of the OT. Paul used the OT to prove to the jews that Jesus is the Messiah. There are hundreds of prophecies concerning Jesus in the OT.

My apologies if I missed something because your question should be the most basic of christian knowledge.

So where is “Jesus” referred to in the Old Testament? Again, that’s my question.

Yes, of course the “messiah” is often cited in the Old Testament.

Thanks.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Exactly, so why do you limit your understanding of God to scripture alone? The Catholic Church was commissioned by Jesus to teach about salvation, administer the sacraments, and to do works of mercy. Why don’t you listen to the Church when it explains how to understand scripture? And why don’t you believe that what the Church teaches is truth. Why do you only accept what it writes, but not what it says?

All Catholic Tradition is in harmony with scripture, this is true. And the reason for this is that scripture is a subset of Catholic Tradition.

But the rapture you are referencing is not in harmony with Catholic Tradition and its not found in scripture either, (except through fanciful bending of the facts) so it can not be true.

I still don’t get why " the Rapture" is important anyway. At the end of time, we will all be judged based on our actions, those that have staying in the state of grace to heaven, those that have not to hell. Why do evangelicals desire to avoid judgement anyway? Do they honestly think that just because they beleive they will be spared that they will? Wouldn’t it be better to just do what the church teaches: partake of the sacraments, avoid sin and love God and Neighbor? Your conscience tells you to do these things, so just do them and stop looking for the easy way out. Enter through the narrow gate…

 

[vz71]

I still don’t get why " the Rapture" is important anyway.

Perhaps because the doctrine instills an ‘us against them’ mentality in the followers.
It gives the followers something they can hang onto that sets them as apart and different…special even from everyone else.

And it instills that this ‘special’ quality will eventually be shown before everyone.

It appeals to pride and fantasy.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Perhaps because the doctrine instills an ‘us against them’ mentality in the followers.
It gives the followers something they can hang onto that sets them as apart and different…special even from everyone else.

And it instills that this ‘special’ quality will eventually be shown before everyone.

It appeals to pride and fantasy.

Is it not written, the last shall be first?

 

[vz71]

Is it not written, the last shall be first?

True.
But being the Catholic I am, I will be content just to make it in.

 

[googie]

We do have to complete the job as no one is automatically saved. That does not mean that Christ’s sacrifice was in any way insufficient to pay for all sins.

Is Christ’s sacrifice somehow lacking because people have to do something, such as having faith, in order to be saved?

You cannot have it both ways, either His sacrifice was sufficient or it was not,period. If it was sufficient , then it is “complete”, no more to say. One is automatically saved when one believes that he is sinner, and realizes that he cannot save himself and turns to Christ and in faith believing and trusting, accepts the sacrifice that Jesus paid for all his sins on Calvary , by His Blood. Blessings.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You cannot have it both ways, either His sacrifice was sufficient or it was not,period. If it was sufficient , then it is “complete”, no more to say.Blessings.

Then everyone is automatically saved and you and I are wasting everyone’s time.

The sheer fact that you are here arguing shows you don’t believe what you say…

 

[Cat_Herder]

. One is automatically saved when one believes that he is sinner, and realizes that he cannot save himself and turns to Christ and in faith believing and trusting, accepts the sacrifice that Jesus paid for all his sins on Calvary , by His Blood. Blessings.

Ah, but first he has to do something… Believe in a certain thing. Hence the sinner must DO SOMETHING to be saved. Does that mean Calvary is insufficient?

And what about all those who are unable to do this thing, like abortion victims? Do they all go to hell, then?