Biblical Reference to the Rapture

[googie]

Ah, but first he has to do something… Believe in a certain thing. Hence the sinner must DO SOMETHING to be saved. Does that mean Calvary is insufficient?

The only part you must do is “accept” it. Jesus is offering you a “gift”. Did you ever get a birthday present, and did you accept it, and if so, did you consider that as “doing something”.So if you consider accepting something is “doing something”, well good for you, hopefully, this will satisfy you, you “did something”. But I can assure you that Christs sacrifice on Calvary was sufficient enough for the whole world, there are no more sacrifices for sin. Blessings.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The only part you must do is “accept” it. Jesus is offering you a “gift”. Did you ever get a birthday present, and did you accept it, and if so, did you consider that as “doing something”.So if you consider accepting something is “doing something”, well good for you, hopefully, this will satisfy you, you “did something”. But I can assure you that Christs sacrifice on Calvary was sufficient enough for the whole world, there are no more sacrifices for sin. Blessings.

How does a fetus or a mentally infirm person or a child below the age of reason “accept” anything?

You have grace and faith confused.

 

[paul_c]

The only part you must do is “accept” it. Jesus is offering you a “gift”. Did you ever get a birthday present, and did you accept it, and if so, did you consider that as “doing something”.So if you consider accepting something is “doing something”, well good for you, hopefully, this will satisfy you, you “did something”. But I can assure you that Christs sacrifice on Calvary was sufficient enough for the whole world, there are no more sacrifices for sin. Blessings.

There are no more sacrifices for sin, this is true. But you must do more than accept the faith. You must cooperate with the graces given you to do the works asked of you. and you must partake of the sacraments to gain and maintaing grace. This si what it means to accept the gift of grace. And you must do so continually, or else you give back the gift of grace. Christ sacrifice was sufficient to redeem us, but we must chose to be redeemed and we must continue to chose that path for our entire lives…

 

[Cat_Herder]

There are no more sacrifices for sin, this is true. But you must do more than accept the faith. You must cooperate with the graces given you to do the works asked of you. and you must partake of the sacraments to gain and maintaing grace. This si what it means to accept the gift of grace. And you must do so continually, or else you give back the gift of grace. Christ sacrifice was sufficient to redeem us, but we must chose to be redeemed and we must continue to chose that path for our entire lives…

Indeed.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[moondweller]

Correct, but notice that Paul does not say anything about salvation by faith alone.

Grace is the means by which God Himself saves men, "through faith, * “…and that not of yourselves, the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast*.” Like many you stumble over the simplicity of it.

The work required for man’s salvation was DONE, “once for all” by Christ Himself on the cross. And now, men are required to personally believe the message concerning His Person and work. “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” (Acts 16:31). The requirement being “believe.” The work was DONE by Another.

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[moondweller]

You’re going to have a hard time explaining how that can be if satan, who is clearly responsible for all of the sin and grief described in the first eleven chapters (and for that matter, all of the preceding biblical books), doesn’t actually fall from heaven until chapter 12.

(1) Chapter twelve is a prophetic “sign” with it’s own content. Specifically, it’s about national Israel during the Tribulation period. The dragon desires to destroy that nation in order to prevent the return of Messiah. National Israel must exist in order for her Messiah to return and set up His Messianic, earthly, Davidic kingdom according to the ancient Hebrew prophets and the word spoken to Mary by the angel Gabriel (Lk. 1:32-33). Hence, the dragon pursues the “woman” into the wilderness, but fails.

(2) You’ve got it wrong; the “seals,” trumpets" and “bowls” are the result of the wrath of God and the Lamb (Rev. 6:16-17). For this reason the church is taken up before these events occur. Christ does not bring wrath upon His body/bride (cf. 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9).

 

[paul_c]

(1) Chapter twelve is a prophetic “sign” with it’s own content. Specifically, it’s about national Israel during the Tribulation period. The dragon desires to destroy that nation in order to prevent the return of Messiah. National Israel must exist in order for her Messiah to return and set up His Messianic, earthly, Davidic kingdom according to the ancient Hebrew prophets and the word spoken to Mary by the angel Gabriel (Lk. 1:32-33). Hence, the dragon pursues the “woman” into the wilderness, but fails.

(2) You’ve got it wrong; the “seals,” trumpets" and “bowls” are the result of the wrath of God and the Lamb (Rev. 6:16-17). For this reason the church is taken up before these events occur. Christ does not bring wrath upon His body/bride (cf. 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9).

This is very fanciful interpretation… You will not be spared the judgement, nor will anyone else.

 

[Cruxis117]

Grace is the means by which God Himself saves men, "through faith, * “…and that not* of yourselves, the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Like many you stumble over the simplicity of it.

The work required for man’s salvation was DONE, “once for all” by Christ Himself on the cross. And now, men are required to personally believe the message concerning His Person and work. “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” (Acts 16:31). The requirement being “believe.” The work was DONE by Another.

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Hmm, what of these verses?

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but* the doers of the law who will be justified**."* (Romans 2: 13)

*“For he will repay each according to each one’s deeds, to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” * (Romans 2: 6-7)

"So faith by itself,* if it has no works**, is dead."* (James 2:17)

"You see that* faith was active along with his works *,and faith was brought to completion by the works". (James 2:22)

*"You see that a person is **justified by works *and not by faith alone" (James 2:24)

As you can see, while the REDEMPTIVE work of Christ was accomplished, the Salvatory work (as in the work needed to be done in order to secure salvation) is still needed, because we must LIVE the faith by DOING the word, and not just hearing and believing. For “even the demons believe, and shudder” (James 2:19). If we are to be justified before our Lord Christ Jesus, Faith and living that faith through Love (or Good Works) are essential and complementary. This is the problem with those who believe as you do, MD. You lose the importance and the beauty of Scripture, of the Gospel, and of the Truth, by focusing on the “simplicity”.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Stay on topic. Sola Fide is not it.

 

[Cruxis117]

Going back to the Rapture, where is the scriptural evidence for this?

(If someone wants to, we should open another thread for a Sola Fide discussion)

 

[moondweller]

This is very fanciful interpretation… You will not be spared the judgement, nor will anyone else.

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."However, Rev. 6-18 is not Divine “judgment,” but Divine wrath (Rev. 6:16-17). There’s a difference. Christ does not bring His “wrath” upon His bride/church. That’s why the church is not mentioned after chapter three. She’s been taken up, just as promised.

 

[moondweller]

Going back to the Rapture, where is the scriptural evidence for this?Go back and read my posts.

 

[Cruxis117]

Go back and read my posts.

Here, let’s try this again. Give us a list of all of these verses, and why they do not refer to the Second Coming.

 

[Cat_Herder]

(1) Chapter twelve is a prophetic “sign” with it’s own content. Specifically, it’s about national Israel during the Tribulation period. The dragon desires to destroy that nation in order to prevent the return of Messiah. National Israel must exist in order for her Messiah to return and set up His Messianic, earthly, Davidic kingdom according to the ancient Hebrew prophets and the word spoken to Mary by the angel Gabriel (Lk. 1:32-33). Hence, the dragon pursues the “woman” into the wilderness, but fails.

… And then goes to make war on her children, those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Christians. Wait, weren’t they supposed to be raptured? D’oh!

 

[Cat_Herder]

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Keep reading.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:18-21[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]John 5:24-30[/BIBLEDRB]

However, Rev. 6-18 is not Divine “judgment,” but Divine wrath (Rev. 6:16-17). There’s a difference.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Christ does not bring His “wrath” upon His bride/church. That’s why the church is not mentioned after chapter three. She’s been taken up, just as promised.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 13:5-8[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 14:9-12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 17:5-6[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[paul_c]

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Moondweller, this is the full sequence from John 3:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
Notice, it does not say as you claim that Jesus did not come to Judge the world, but it instead says he did not come to condemn the world but to save it. You (or the translation you have used) twist the meaning. And if you read on to verse 19-21, you see that both the good and the wicked will be judged. The wicked will try to avoid it, but the righteous come happily to the light to be judged

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Moondweller, again, you use a snippet of scripture to try to claim the opposite of what the verse is saying. You try to claim that you will not be judged, yet this verse is ALL about judgement. and again, the word condemnation is treated as a synonym for judgement, which radically changes the spirit of what is being discussed: It is much different to not be condemned than to not be judged. In fact, your translation is immediately contradicted in line 29, which says that everyone will be judged on their works. Don’t you ever read the full passage? Or do you think that we don’t?

22 Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son,
23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
25 Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
27 And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
30 "I cannot do anything on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

Moondweller, to be honest, every time you quote a simple snippet of scripture, I always look at the full passage and inevitably it supports the Catholic position and contradicts what you are saying. These two passages above are just the latest of a long line of these incidents. When will you open yourself up to the truth?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Moondweller, to be honest, every time you quote a simple snippet of scripture, I always look at the full passage and inevitably it supports the Catholic position and contradicts what you are saying. These two passages above are just the latest of a long line of these incidents. When will you open yourself up to the truth?

MD is a dispensationalist. Dispensationalists treat the Bible like Jell-o. When you deal their argument a mighty slice, they divide the verse in two and say that there are two of whatever it is that you refuted. Two Israels, two raptures, two churches, two judgments, two kingdoms… etc.

This will continue until the dispensationalist stops playing with his food and finally realizes that the Word of God is meant to be eaten.

 

[moondweller]

… And then goes to make war on her children, those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Christians. Wait, weren’t they supposed to be raptured? D’oh!

You fail to understand the Scriptures. These are not part of the church. They’re Jews who believe in Christ during the great Tribulation.

There will be Gentiles who will believe during that time, as well (see Rev. 7:9-17). Those Gentile believers who survive (not martyred) will enter the Messianic Kingdom as mortals. They’re the “sheep” described in Matt. 25:31ff.

But the church Christ is presently building is caught up to be with Him prior to these events. The church is not mentioned after John is told to “come up here and I will show you what must take place after these things” (Rev. 4:1). That is, after this church age. What takes place “after” this church age is the wrath of God and the Lamb (Rev. 6:16-17) described in the seven seals, trumpets and bowls.

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[Cat_Herder]

You fail to understand the Scriptures.

You have not read them.

These are not part of the church. They’re Jews who believe in Christ during the great Tribulation.

Nope, they are the saints, as clearly stated in Revelation 14:12.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 14:9-12[/BIBLEDRB]
Compare:
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:17[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[kepha1]

… And then goes to make war on her children, those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Christians. Wait, weren’t they supposed to be raptured? D’oh!