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ckempston
Guest
One another simply means another Christian. Catholic sure do like to complicate matters.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
And this is your pronunciation and final judgement Pilot? Or are you role playing Christ speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees here? Perhaps you should meditate on the verse ‘he who rejects you [the church leadership] rejects me’ and the verse ‘all authority comes from God’ and the verse ‘do what they say not what they [personally] do’. The Church has ALWAYS taught the truth. There have admittedly been instances where individuals have not been perfect however. But in matters of teaching of faith and morals the Church is infallible. Not ONE SINGLE commandment of God has been set aside in order to observe traditions. You are bearing false witness against The Body of Christ!
Those that rebel against The Church are themselves following the most ancient of traditions first started with Satan when He rebelled and then followed by Cain when he slew Able for offering an acceptable sacrifice to God when his was rejected. There is ONLY one sacrifice acceptable to God - the Mass of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
Time to repent and come back to The Church.
James
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ckempston
Guest
Wrong. The church has not always taught the Truth, as you just demonstrated. The sacrifice of Jesus was once for all. It does not happen at Mass. And, according to my Bible, the acceptable sacrifice to God is:
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
D
deanarrca
Guest
Yes, In the sacrament of Penance, I confess my sins to the Priest- and the way I understand it ( and being a new Catholic I am giving the disclaimer that I may not have this exactly right that is why I deferred to those who know more and can explain better) God is working through the Priest. It is God actually doing the forgiving. The Priest is the spokes piece. So I confess, repent, and the Priest forgives me- (Actually it is God forgives through the Priest) then the priest gives me a penance. **If **,in my heart, I don’t intend to do the penance, then I haven’t truly repented. Even though the priest may have said the words and gone through the motions I am not truly forgiven. God has not forgiven me. Repentance is completed through penance and that involves a contrite heart. I have been forgiven based on my repentance. And the Penance you are asked to do is to deal with the temporal effects of the sins you just confessed and repented of.
Your only other option is to say repentance is not necessary for forgiveness. And I would presume you don’t want to go there. Although I have heard fundamentalist/ evangelical pastors preach that once you’re saved, and because Christ paid the final price for your sins, that even repentance is a work and no longer necessary. That would mean all your future sins as a “saved” Christaian are automatically forgiven without repentance? That opens up a whole other can of worms
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I suppose you would tell us that you sit in a church of one eh?
Confessing to one another means “The Church” - NOT the sola sola of “me, myself, and I” who lacking objectivity will always advocate for self to create a faux self forgiveness to claim “the devil made me do it”. You are being intellectually disingenuous in public so how can you possibly pretend to be objective in the privacy of your own mind. You need Christ’s representative (priest) to keep you honest with yourself and to invoke the apostolic authority to loose your sins.
Only a foolish author or the most arrogant or the frugal of means will willingly proof read his own works and entrust his future to his own competency. The same common sense principal applies for forgivness.
James
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ckempston
Guest
Sure don’t.I suppose you would tell us that you sit in a church of one eh?
No, it means one another - i.e. any member of the church. I did not say anything about doing anything on my own. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Which is why we confess to one another.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
ckempston, clearly you have just demonstrated that you do not at all understand what it is that is going on in the mass at all. In the mass we invoke the SAME sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. It is not re-crucifying Christ. That divine act at Calvary stands ETERNAL ever before God as an act of mercy and obedience that gives us reparation for our sins. The mass petitions God to call to mind in our time so that we Catholics who are all present may participate personally with God, Jesus and the Saints in Heaven in that same passion of Christ for our benefit. The Body of Christ, The Church, is mystically joined to Christ on the Cross so we may participate with Him in that divine act of obedience and relive it and call it to mind.
As for offering our bodies up to Christ as a living sacrifice this is confirming what The Catholic Church has always taught. Namely, that if we are to share in Christ’s glory then we must share in His suffering and sacrifice and die to self.
I invite you to withdraw your false charge or present cogent evidence of The Church being fallable in its moral teachings - ever. Keep in mind here that you are putting the mystical Body of Christ on trial here. Are you sure you are qualified to play devil’s advocate?
If you know your scripture I invite you to ponder the futility of that task - “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” Satan has not prevailed now in over 2000 years. Do you think you have found a chink in God’s armor or do you imagine the expression “My Church” means ckempston’s Church of one?
James
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ckempston
Guest
Only a Priest can forgive sins, the very topic at hand: WRONG.ckempston, clearly you have just demonstrated that you do not at all understand what it is that is going on in the mass at all. In the mass we invoke the SAME sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. It is not re-crucifying Christ. That divine act at Calvary stands ETERNAL ever before God as an act of mercy and obedience that gives us reparation for our sins. The mass petitions God to call to mind in our time so that we Catholics who are all present may participate personally with God, Jesus and the Saints in Heaven in that same passion of Christ for our benefit. The Body of Christ, The Church, is mystically joined to Christ on the Cross so we may participate with Him in that divine act of obedience and relive it and call it to mind.
As for offering our bodies up to Christ as a living sacrifice this is confirming what The Catholic Church has always taught. Namely, that if we are to share in Christ’s glory then we must share in His suffering and sacrifice and die to self.
I invite you to withdraw your false charge or present cogent evidence of The Church being fallable in its moral teachings - ever. Keep in mind here that you are putting the mystical Body of Christ on trial here. Are you sure you are qualified to play devil’s advocate?
James
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ryanoneil
Guest
Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness. Even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others. (Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22)
She can believe confession to a priest is not necessay all she wants, but we have absolute assurance that our sins are forgiven when we do.
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:21-23)
Why scoff at the means Jesus gave us?
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jay29
Guest
God forgives sins through His priests as scripture has stated. If you do what He states, sins are forgiven GUARANTEED. Any other way, you might as well flip a coin.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
How so?
In the confessional the priest is acting as Christ himself through the divine apostolic authority (and commandment) to forgive sins. The ordained priest of God in the mystical moment of absolution IS Christ. If you prefer to think of it less mystically and more objectively it is OK to think of the Priest as the authorized channel of authority and the witness by which God acts to forgive sins of the repentant sinner.
What I never have been able to understand is how many Protestants, and Catholics as well, miss the inclusive theme in OT and NT scripture where God is constantly in constructive cooperation with humanity. He is not like the mythological Zeus who separates Himself high up on Mt. Olympus. No , God the Father, is a God who intimately binds himself to His People and cooperates with us through our human estate to participate with us. “God is with us” (Emanuel). God took the form of man through Jesus to live with us, be one of us and invite us to step into a new perfected humanity that can never die again.
Note that all through history God has always had his representatives through His priests, prophets, judges, kings; and now also joins with us in a new way through permitting us to effect The Eucharist too. We are no longer slaves (to sin) wandering in the dessert to the promised land and living off of manna falling from heaven. We are now saved pilgrims who are journeying to the promised land of heaven and eating of the fruit of the tree of life (the living word of God - the Eucharist) as part of the Divine Family of God. God wants us to share in many aspects of our salvation with Him and each other. He wants us to share in His suffering and sorrow so that we may fully share also in His glory and feel that we have ownership and worthiness to have that joy. This is how God loves - by sharing His joy and glory with us so that we may fully feel a part of everything He feels and wants. He wants us to be partners with Him in His great Divine plan for Creation; as well as a new Creation yet to come.
It is clear from history and scripture that God has never revealed a model of anarchy to us. No, God is a self evident authority and has always used HIS special appointed leaders (again - prophets, judges, priests, kings, apostles, bishops etc.) - quite commonly ordinary men like you and I who He lifts up and ordains to new authorities and gives new powers.
Authority, both Divine and Human has thus ALWAYS been respected in scripture. Even Satan, for the time being, is permitted to have his own for those who reject God’s authority. Every soul answers to somone - God or Satan (the latter cleverly disguised through hubris and the inclination toward independent self determination).
So, I know with every fiber of my being why God utterly rejects those who consciously do not respect the OFFICE of His divinely appointed authority on earth (The Vicar of Christ, the bishops and priests). God is Divine order - he is not the author of anarchy, disorder and division. There are only two possible divisions: 1) Those with God and His ONE Church (the two being inseparable) and; 2) those who chose to separate themselves to live outside the Kingdom. The latter will not inherit the heavenly Kingdom unless they abandon the notion that they are their own gods, independent churches and self-authorities.
James
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
To the op…
pennitent and pennace are 2 entirely different things you’ll find no support for pennance…
pennitent and pennace are 2 entirely different things you’ll find no support for pennance…
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Mark77
Guest
“Only God forgives sins” (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) 1445)
We all agree on that!
So why did Jesus give his apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins?
“And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ’ Receive the Holy Spirit”. “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”.(Jn20:22-23 KJV)
(I used the protestant King James version so the translation argument would be avoided).
“But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation (2Cor 5:18). The apostle is sent out"on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading “Be reconciled to God” (2 Cor 5:20)” (CCC 1442)
Perhaps God, in His infinite wisdom, knows us better than we ever will know ourselves!
He knows that we can get on our knees and tearfully ask Him to forgive us.
I know that I have committed many horrible sins and I ask God for His forgiveness everyday. But when I go to confession, to a priest, who acts “in persona Christi”, (in the person of Christ), I am forced to reach deeper into my soul to express my heartfelt anguish for having offended God.
"Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible to repair the harm (eg. return stolen goods, …But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as the relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away the sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penanace”.
…Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, “provided we suffer with him.” (Rom 8:17, Rom 3:25, Jn 2:1-2, cf. Council of Trent (1551); (CCC 1459).
So yes, we can ask God directly for forgiveness. But He is truly merciful. In Holy Scripture, He gives us His Church and through the apostles and their successors, the sacrament of penance as another way to receive His infinite Grace.
May God Bless You.
Mark
We all agree on that!
So why did Jesus give his apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins?
“And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ’ Receive the Holy Spirit”. “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”.(Jn20:22-23 KJV)
(I used the protestant King James version so the translation argument would be avoided).
“But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation (2Cor 5:18). The apostle is sent out"on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading “Be reconciled to God” (2 Cor 5:20)” (CCC 1442)
Perhaps God, in His infinite wisdom, knows us better than we ever will know ourselves!
He knows that we can get on our knees and tearfully ask Him to forgive us.
I know that I have committed many horrible sins and I ask God for His forgiveness everyday. But when I go to confession, to a priest, who acts “in persona Christi”, (in the person of Christ), I am forced to reach deeper into my soul to express my heartfelt anguish for having offended God.
"Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible to repair the harm (eg. return stolen goods, …But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as the relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away the sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penanace”.
…Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, “provided we suffer with him.” (Rom 8:17, Rom 3:25, Jn 2:1-2, cf. Council of Trent (1551); (CCC 1459).
So yes, we can ask God directly for forgiveness. But He is truly merciful. In Holy Scripture, He gives us His Church and through the apostles and their successors, the sacrament of penance as another way to receive His infinite Grace.
May God Bless You.
Mark
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Erich
Guest
Matthew 28:18ff:
We already know, from Matthew 16:18-19, that Peter is the Rock on which Jesus built His Church (i.e. the one against which the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail) and that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Who else but a priest can authoritatively say to you, “God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”
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389670
Guest
Do you know of any apostles hearing confessions and giving some kind of penance before a person would be forgiven?
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jay29
Guest
Chapter 4 of the DIANCHE:
…In the church you shall acknowledge your transgressions, and you shall not come near for your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life…
earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
Also start reading here:
scripturecatholic.com/confession.html
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389670
Guest
The didache was not written by the apostles themselves but after they died.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
First of all we need to recognize that in the early Church ALL converts were BELIEVERS. They received primary forgivness of sins THROUGH BAPTISMAL CONFESSIONALS and short prayers that became the rites of The Church.
So, although not a proof we certainly have strong evidence of apostolic confessions in the original baptismal rites and even the Apostles’ Creed (sorry sola scripturists this is TRADITION and HISTORY) as evidenced in Old Roman Form of the Apostles Creed. The Old Form is traceable to the middle 2nd century around 140 AD. So, although the Apostle’s Creed is not directly attributed to the apostles it is certainly rooted in Apostolic times. So the answer to your question is found in Catholic Apostolic Tradition; a tradition that preserves the essential elements of the ancient Apostle’s Creed since this was a test of “Catholicity”. As an attestation of belief and identity The Catholic Church recites a modern form of this same prayer to this very day. It is by sustaining the tradition of professing of The Apostle’s Creed that we Catholics make the claim that we are “catholic and apostolic". Thus we show our roots to extend all the way back to the early Church. Given that The Church is a 2000 year old living tradition, and especially by the accepted fact that The Church is slow to change even in its non-dogmatic doctrines, why would the Church practise-of-the-day not be taken as prima facia evidence for what the Apostles materially did (if not in done in precise form and essence)?
Consider the Old Apostles’ Creed
Old Roman Form of the Apostles Creed (from the Greek of Marcellus:
My task here is to suggest to you the high probability that the essential notion, the seed of The Creed can be found substantially in the baptismal confession made by converts in the reception of that rite into becoming Christians. This then gives strong creedance (within reasonable doubt) to the case that the apostles forgave sins through the OFFICE of the priesthood; and that this OFFICE originally and principally forgave through BAPTISM during the Church’s formation. Note though that The Creed carries forward the general notion and belief in the “forgivness of sins” as a function of The Church and a normal belief of the membership. It then becomes intuitive that after new members received into the Church later began to backslide and fall into old patterns of sinful behavior that baptism being no longer available to a “believer” would require The Church segue from a pure evangelical model to a sustaining and maintaining model. This makes it possible to ‘confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another* so that you may be healed’ [James 5:16] (e.g. * a recognized authority or elder/priest of the Church) .
Note that the primitive baptismal confession may have contained no more than a short ejaculation “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.” But we have evidence within the New Testament itself that this profession soon became enlarged. Paul speaks of the “form of teaching” delivered to converts (Romans 6:17), and reminds Timothy of “the good (beautiful) confession” he had made in sight of many witnesses (1 Timothy 6:12). Similar language is used of Christ’s confession before Pilate (1 Timothy 6:13). Thus through symmetry with Christ we see the common prefiguring theme for new and major attributions that are unique to Catholic practice. This has been the consistent pattern of revelation and verification in all of the NT (ref. The many Eucharistic prefigurements in OT and NT with multiplication of loafs).
So we may perhaps conjecture from the epistles that Timothy’s confession contained references to God as the author of life, to Jesus Christ and His descent from David, to His witness before Pontius Pilate, to His being raised from the dead, to His coming again to judge the quick and the dead (1 Timothy 6:13; 2 Timothy 2:8; 4:1). Early Christian writers, as Ignatius (110 AD), and Aristides the apologist (circa 125 AD), show traces of other clauses. It should be intuitive from Timothy and James that the phrase “forgivness of sins” was practices both in baptism and as a public confession for those already baptised.
So I believe a reasonable case is made here that The Apostles’ Creed that comes to us through tradition attests to the forgivness of sins in the context of “The Church”. This is highly correlated to the original Apostles (hence the traditional name given “Apostles’ Creed”) by both tradition and by scripture. It is therefore a matter of simple deduction that the belief in forgivness of sins is apostolic (and in perfect agreement with Matthew 18:18 in conveying loosing and binding authority) and was in fact practised both through what is now called the sacrament of Baptism and by public confession and profession of faith in the context of The Church.
QED
Therefor, confession in some form (public most probable) is an apostolic tradition that is consistent with scripture, inferred and supported by scripture and confirmed by the 2000 year old continuity of the Catholic Church that still conforms to this apostolic tradition. :tiphat:
Is there anyone here that has claim to an older or superior tradition that differs from Catholic practise that stands up to the same test of time and scrutiny and was practised by the apostles?
:cricket_sounds:
James
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ShemariahBeans
Guest
If you don’t like Catholics, and wish to argue only, why are you here.
There is a small army of us former Protestants who have converted to the catholic (universal) Catholic church.
I came from a Baptist background, and spent years meeting with a church of Christ. I know my Scriptures, friend, it is what led me to where I am now.
Please stop dissenting for the sake of dissenting - this is not a discussion, it is you sitting on your own pulpit rendering your judgment on the faithful.
I do NOT miss the days when a single man could commandeer a pulpit and propagate his own interpretations.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Really? Your concordance must be broken then.
Here’s 100 references or so where the Bible speaks of sackcloth, most of them are in direct relation to penance, which is a demonstration of sorrow for sin. A physical way in which people have shown their contrition for sin.
Being penitent and penance are inexorably linked in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. This is also what was meant when the people in the Gospels were told to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Penitence is the like a second step that follows repentance, and penance is a scriptural aspect of that.
Wanna try again?
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