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cfrancis
Guest
No excuses, CK.
Those are very nice Scripture quotes, but none of them support the claim you made above.
Of course, I was ab it surprised you didn’t include Jn 20:22-23 in that list of quotes…
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Those are very nice Scripture quotes, but none of them support the claim you made above.
Of course, I was ab it surprised you didn’t include Jn 20:22-23 in that list of quotes…
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deanarrca
Guest
Please then, explain why the Apostles were given the authority by Christ to forgive sins if it was unnecessary. What was it they had the authority to bind and lose? When was that authority taken away?
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ckempston
Guest
None of those passages supports asking God directly for forgiveness and receiving it? I haven’t denied the existence of Jn 20:22-23, nor denied that the Apostles, and possibly even those who came after them had/have the authority to forgive sins. This, however, does not remove the fact that ALL sins can be forgiven by the sinner simply asking God.
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cfrancis
Guest
That was neither your claim nor your statement:
True statement, and neither do the verses you provide deny God forgiving sins through the priest, as you’ve alluded to above.
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ckempston
Guest
We need to work on our reading comprehension here. I can’t believe you are misrepresenting what I wrote, even quoting it in the same post, and still not getting my point.
What I said:
I do not need a priest to forgive sins.
What you seem to be implying it means:
Priests cannot forgive sins.
I would think that with all the whining I hear from some Catholics about having their religion misrepresented, they would do a better job of representing truthfully what other people say.
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cfrancis
Guest
ckempston, you are absolutely correct. I have misread your reply. My apologies.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Joe:
I’ve just finished reading a book titled, The Mass of the Early Christians, by Michael Aquilina (2nd Ed., 2007, 2001 Our Sunday Visitor) where some of the Post-Apostolic Fathers (Irenaeus among others) talk about *Lapsis *and *Penitents *who stood with the Catechumens in the back of the Assembly during their penance after they had confessed their sins to the Bishop or the priest (if the Bishop had delegated the authority) IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE CONGREGATION (definitely NOT confessing to Jesus ALONE - Talk about HUMBLING). Although Humbling, this wasn’t Humiliating, because it was forbidden for anyone to repeat what they heard in the Sacrament of Penance, and ALL members of the Assembly were called to pray for the Lapsis and Penitents at all times (“Both were ‘soldiers’ wounded on the field of battle and in need of treatment and healing.”)
As the Church was legalized and became the socially acceptable thing to do, understanding of the need to keep the “Seal of the Confessional” died, and people started spreading what they heard their neighbors say in the public Sacrament of Penance. As a consequence, people stopped using the Sacrament.
As most of those familiar with the subject know, in response to this tragedy, Irish Monks and Missionaries began to hear Confessions in private and to assign penances sometime during the 6th - 7th Centuries. The penances they assigned were pretty much in line with the ones they had been receiving previously, but the Penitents didn’t have to worry about their neighbors repeating what they had said in confidence to everyone who would listen.
Use of the Sacrament increased 10 fold as people sought out Confessors and Confessors were trained to meet the demand.
The only things that can be credited to the Council of Lateran - The recognition that Penances had been greatly lessened and moderated (over time) which would enable someone to have more frequent recourse to the Sacrament of Penance and to enjoy the fruits of this more frequent recourse and the strong encouragement for the laity to do just that.
I’m sure Protestants would be astounded to learn that the Orthodox do not receive the Lord’s Body and Blood without first availing themselves of the Sacrament of Confession, that this is done the immediately following Vespers on Saturday, quietly in front of the rest of the congregation (Who have either done the same or who are waiting to do the same), who are not allowed to repeat anything they might overhear. The Orthodox claim theirs is the Apostolic practice.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Deanarrca has it nailed dead on. Christ never did a single thing that was trivial. Given that he provoked the Jewish Sanhedrin and other temple officials by forgiving sins to the point where they wanted to murder him (and did) its is certainly NOT a trivial matter that Christ would extend the power to loose and bind as a passing and idle afterthought. NO, this is THE KEY that binds God to The Church and let’s us know who by evidence of submitting to the authority or by rejecting it is IN our OUT of The Church. Except for those dieing shortly after baptism and the most pure of individuals (true saints) the Sacrament of Confession is ESSENTIAL for our salvation.
And here is the final double touché that is taken with the above goes directly to the heart of the matter to form the coup de grâce to this entire discussion.
DIRECT BIBLICAL EVIDENCE OF a “ministry of reconciliation.”
2 Cor 5:18
18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us** the ministry of reconciliation**
AND DIRECT Biblical EVIDENCE of active ecclesial AUTHORTY in ACTION
2 Cor 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ (e.g. Bishops), as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Does this not sound exactly like the authoritative words used in the rite of absolution? The words of Absolution in the Latin Rite take the form: *God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins (John 20:22; Acts 2:1-4, John 14:26; 16:13,Matthew 28:20, Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38); through **the ministry of the Church *(e.g. 2 Cor 5:18) may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. (James 5:16, John 20:19-23, Matthew 16:18-19, 18:18, and Luke 10:16
To sin is to sin against God and His Church. When we sin, we stain that perfect Church for which Christ died (Ephesians 5:25-27). The conversion of St. Paul illustrates that to hurt the Church is to hurt Christ. “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4), our Lord asked after Saul/Paul had been mercilessly persecuting the Church. Protestants who do not believe in confession must resolved how one can be reconciled to God without His Church? IMPOSSIBLE - the two are as inseparable as God & Son and as holistuc as Charity - which requires Love of God AND Love of Neighbor; after all Jesus was both God and our neighbor…
James
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ShemariahBeans
Guest
Just returned from the blessed Sacrament of Reconciliation, full of thanksgiving and love to our Heavenly Father.
I was not able to take the Eucharist until I made a full confession, and I felt so orphaned!
Scrubby clean, well fed now.
May the good Lord bless and keep all in this room!
Beans
I was not able to take the Eucharist until I made a full confession, and I felt so orphaned!
Scrubby clean, well fed now.
May the good Lord bless and keep all in this room!
Beans
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
CKemspon:
That simply isn’t the practice in the Apostolic, Post-Apostolic and Early Christian/Catholic Church. Since these were the people the Holy Spirit used to give us the Bible, and since St. Paul the Apostle said of the Church, “**…the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth”, (1 Tim 3:15 RSV) and our Lord Jesus said,
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
(John 16:13-15 RSV)
Early Christians who had committed serious sins (theft, adultery, abortion, apostasy, idol worship, etc.) were required to confess those sins to their Bishop /Priest PUBLICLY in front of the entire congregation as an exercise in humility and submission.
CONFESSION
The Didache
*“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.” *(Didiche 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70])
St, Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.”
(Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110])
“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop.”
(ibid., 8)
St. John Chrysostom
*“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven.” *
(The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387])
catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
Check out a 3-Volume set The Faith of the Early Fathers, by Williams T. Jurgens (Order of St. Benedict, 1970). If you can’t find it at your local library, it’s available through Amazon.com That’s how I got my copy).
If you believe that God gave us a Book, you won’t accept the testimony of the Early Church, but only your interpretation of what the Bible says. But, if you willing to consider that the Lord gave us a Church which He also used to give us That Book, You’ll accept the testimony of those first Christians who lived and died for their Catholic faith, and you’ll realize that they called themselves Catholics by the early 2nd Century and believed and taught others to believe the things you say you can’t believe.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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justasking4
Guest
I’m confused. What passage in the Gospels shows that a person must do some kind pennance before that person will be forgiven?Really? Your concordance must be broken then.
Here’s 100 references or so where the Bible speaks of sackcloth, most of them are in direct relation to penance, which is a demonstration of sorrow for sin. A physical way in which people have shown their contrition for sin.
Being penitent and penance are inexorably linked in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. This is also what was meant when the people in the Gospels were told to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Penitence is the like a second step that follows repentance, and penance is a scriptural aspect of that.
Wanna try again?
Do you also believe that a person must confess to a priest to be forgiven?
J
justasking4
Guest
Is there a document in the church that states when a person sins they sin against the church? This certainly is not supported by the passage above.
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deanarrca
Guest
justasking4 You are a day late and a dollar short.(Saying that politely and not sarcastically) Your questions have already been addressed in this thread. Because these issues are beginning to be redundant, you might want to go back and read several pages of this thread or actually go back to the beginning.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
CKempson:
Part of Studying the Scriptures is knowing who they are being written to - In each and every instance you’ve cited, the people they were written to would have confessed their major sins **to the Bishop **(or one of his designated priests) **in front of the entire assembly, **and that the Bishop(or priest) would have assigned a PENANCE while the Assembly laid hands on the PENITENT and prayed over him. They would have understood this as a call to not to avoid this Sacrament if they had fallen into serious sin.
That’s NOT an excuse - That’s a fact of the Early Church and has been demonstrated by the quotes and links from the Early Church Fathers, who described the Practice and Doctrine of the Early Church, and whom God used to give us the Canons of both the New and Old Testaments.
If you choose to ignore the Early Church Fathers, this has become a debate, not a discussion, because your mind is already made up, and you’ve decided there is nothing for you to learn from your Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I just don’t see how the body of Christ can be edified by a situation in which your your only purpose for being here seems to be to argue for against the Catholic (and Orthodox) POV.
And, “LET THE EXCUSES BEGIN!” aren’t exactly the words of someone who wishes to learn from his fellows or to hear what they have to say. In fact, they are the mocking words of someone who wants to start an argument. Simply put, challenges such as these have NO place in civil discussion, let alone a Christian forum where we claim to follow a Lord whose Apostle has clearly told us, *"*If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." (I John 4:20 RSV)
If you want to have a civil discussion, you’re more than welcome, but I see no reason why the present situation should continue.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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justasking4
Guest
Thanks for the correction. Here is what i suspect you are referring to from the catechism in regards to sinning against the church which the poster was claiming:
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Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.
I agree that all sin is against God but it does not follow that when a person sins he is sinning against the church.
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deanarrca
Guest
I think it does follow. You are free to have your opinion. I believe when a professing Christian does sin, especially blatantly in public he is sinning against the Church. he is bringing condemnation on himself and the Church at large and the local Church. Look at the numerous scandals both in the Protestant and Catholic Churches. When so in so in my Sunday School class has an adulterous affair with the 18 year old babysitter and it is plastered on the front of the local newspaper it brings condemnation not only to the individuals involved but also to the Church. He has sinned against the church. Those type of sins hurt the Whole Body of Christ.
It may be that not all venial sins are necessarily sins against the Church, but I do believe all mortal sins are very much sins against the Church.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Justasking4:
There’s a scripture from James - It goes something like this:
*Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. *
(James 1:19-20 RSV)
With that in mind, I’m sure that you’ll find that all of your questions have been answered, if you’ll just read the posts in the thread. I’m sure you may think of new ones, and none of us would have any problems answering those, but I see no reason why I, or anyone else here, should have to answer the same question 3 times because those new to any thread don’t wish to take the time to read the previous posts on the thread.
I like the sound of my own voice too, as well as the look of my own writing, but that’s not how I’m going to learn.
When I joined a Middle East Forum, I probably spent the 2 weeks just reading the posts and the links (3 hours/day, 6 days/week) so I could learn the issues, geography, etc. That meant that, when I did start posting, I actually had something to contribute to the forum.
I’m sure you’ll even notice I don’t post a lot now - That’s because if I’m not reading others’ posts, I’m trying to research mine.
Read the rest of the posts on this thread, please. Then take some time to read these links:
THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
CONFESSION
catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - Table of Contents (English)
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents (English)
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Please read the first two - There essential to this discussion. If you can read the Section from either the Catechism or the Compendium, you’ll be ahead of the game and you’ll know more than most of the people here. The Catechism and the Compendium are both linked to the relevant sections through what we would call the Table of Contents by what is called in the link the INDEX.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Justasking4:
As our Lord said in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (the One about Judgment Day):
*“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand,
Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' * *Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” *(Matthew 25:31-46 RSV)
*But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. * **(John 19:34 RSV)
**Now as Saul journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” (**Acts 9:3-6 RSV)
Read all of I Corinthians 10-12**
*
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.* **(James 1:27 RSV)
***What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?*If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
**(James 2:14-17 RSV)
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? *
**(I John 3:14-17 RSV)
**If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. **(I John 4:20 RSV)
**There are more, but those should be sufficient. Our Lord equates Himself with the Church and states that wrongs committed against Him are wrongs against the Community (because anything that effects me effects the people I live and work with) and vice versa…
This is how the Early Church treated it. As I said previously, even serious sins committed in secret were to be confessed to the Bishop (or his designated priest) in front of the whole assembly of those baptized believers who were admitted to the Holy Mysteries of the Eucharist.
If you don’t like this, or you think this is somehow not Scriptural, I suggest you take up the issue with the men and women (and children) who gave up everything to follow Christ and gave up their lives on the arena floor instead of denying the faith they received from the Apostles.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
J
justasking4
Guest
No doubt these are terrible sins and bring shame on Christ. However it does not necessarily follow that the whole church has been sinned against.
Do you have Biblical support that all sins are against the church?
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deanarrca
Guest
Again I didn’t say absolutely “all” sins. I said there are probably some venial that may not. I said “I do believe” as in it is my opinion that all mortal sins would qualify as sinning against the church.
Whereas I gave a fictional but practical example of adultery.
Traditional Ang in the above post #98
Gave a very detailed explanation with scriptural support of why when you sin you are also sinning against the Church.
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