Bill C16 passes! Rights for Transgender Expression and Identity in Canada!

[josie_L]

I wouldn’t be comfortable sending a woman who hasn’t yet transitioned but presents as male into a ladies room. I wouldn’t be comfortable sending a man who hasn’t yet transitioned but presents as female into a men’s room. Just seems like problems (and probably violence in the latter) may occur all around.

I would feel a lot more uncomfortable with a man who thinks he’s a woman coming into the ladies room. Sorry, but that would be a lot more intimidating and scary.

p.s. I’m not sure why it doesn’t make you uncomfortable.

God bless!

 

[JimG]

So what, they still have the same equipment? However, if they have transitioned then that’s a different story.

Many, perhaps most, people, who have transition surgery have only a “top” transition and deliberately do not do a lower transition, opting to keep their original sex organs. I watched a documentary about a female swimmer who transitioned to male. She took hormones and had her breasts removed and joined the men’s swim team. She kept her uterus, ovaries, and external female organs because, she said, “I might want to bear a child someday.” Many transwomen-i.e., biological men, elect to keep their penises.

 

[josie_L]

Many, perhaps most, people, who have transition surgery have only a “top” transition and deliberately do not do a lower transition, opting to keep their original sex organs. I watched a documentary about a female swimmer who transitioned to male. She took hormones and had her breasts removed and joined the men’s swim team. She kept her uterus, ovaries, and external female organs because, she said, “I might want to bear a child someday.” Many transwomen-i.e., biological men, elect to keep their penises.

I believe Bruce/Caitlin Jenner falls into the latter category, i.e., he kept his penis.

By the way, when I used the word transitioned, I meant fully transitioned. What you’ve stated makes such a mess of things, unbelievable that we’re allowed transwomen to be called women when they still have a penis. It doesn’t even make sense anymore.

God bless! And thank you.

 

[mVitus]

The church has a relatively firm stand on Abortion (to me is a complex subject) but it does not have a formal stand on Transgender and Transition so the question of philosophical underpinnings being a problem is questionable and does not apply here.

By the way my parish priest confirmed that the Diocesan Theologian said that the church did not have a formal stand on this. More over the Church in Canada did not raise any formal concern or objection to this bill.

Pope Francis however has had a very clear stance on the issue, even decrying transgender ideology being taught to children.

 

[Borealis]

I wonder how those who view themselves as transgender and stumble across CAF threads like one respond to the language used here. I wonder if anyone here actually thinks of this before posting.

Of course I think before every post. And I have no interest in coddling the tender sensibilities of people who are mentally unbalanced and who need therapy rather than affirmation of their illness. Sometimes, the truth hurts. We do these people no favors by telling them they are right in their delusions. And life isn’t about getting everything you want and becoming something you are not.

God gave everyone either an XY or an XX pairing. Wishing it were otherwise doesn’t change biological facts. Bruce Jenner doesn’t have any XX chromosomes in his body, no matter how much makeup he puts on, or how many hormone injections he gets. Pretending otherwise is criminal abuse and neglect.

 

[Borealis]

But gracepoole our PM is a “moron”.

The quotation marks weren’t necessary.

 

[OraLabora]

God gave everyone either an XY or an XX pairing. Wishing it were otherwise doesn’t change biological facts.

Umm, no. This is manifestly false. He may have done by design, but in nature many aberrations to this exist. For instance, in Klinefelter syndrome it is XXY, 1 in 1000 births. Victims are sterile and may show marked feminization.

In another syndrome, androgen insensitivity, victims are genetically male but externally female to a varying degree up to being entirely externally female. One in 13000 live births.

So no “wishing otherwise”. A bit more sensitivity would be welcome. People suffering from these conditions suffer more than their share of bigotry and ignorance.

 

[gracepoole]

Of course I think before every post. And I have no interest in coddling the tender sensibilities of people who are mentally unbalanced and who need therapy rather than affirmation of their illness. Sometimes, the truth hurts. We do these people no favors by telling them they are right in their delusions. And life isn’t about getting everything you want and becoming something you are not.

God gave everyone either an XY or an XX pairing. Wishing it were otherwise doesn’t change biological facts. Bruce Jenner doesn’t have any XX chromosomes in his body, no matter how much makeup he puts on, or how many hormone injections he gets. Pretending otherwise is criminal abuse and neglect.

Do you always take a brash, ugly approach to those you suspect of having mental illness? Or just those who believe they’re transgendered? How about schizophrenics? Or the severely depressed? Or those who are bipolar? Or do you only feel justified in treating the transgendered to your version of “truth hurts”?

 

[josie_L]

The quotation marks weren’t necessary.

I put it in quotations because I quoted someone else’s terminology of our PM. I would have used another term, but “dimwitted a*se” might exceed the boundaries of acceptability on CAF.

 

[Ion]

How would a policeman check the gender of a person? How can a person check the gender of another person?

 

[Ion]

In a job interview, how is this thing going tbrough? How is this thing going through at a work place? If having fun of one sex is sexist and sexual harassment, than such a transgender person is rather trouble in a company. Actually, the bill brings real discrimination because people will choose to stay away from such persons to avoid possible trouble for sexual harassment.

 

[Borealis]

Do you always take a brash, ugly approach to those you suspect of having mental illness? Or just those who believe they’re transgendered? How about schizophrenics? Or the severely depressed? Or those who are bipolar? Or do you only feel justified in treating the transgendered to your version of “truth hurts”?

You know nothing about me nor what I’ve experienced in my life.People with those illnesses need to be treated, not told that it’s okay to be mentally ill. The ‘transgendered’ are no different than schizophrenics, bipolar, or anyone else who is suffering from mental health. Coddling them and pretending that reality isn’t real doesn’t do them any favors whatsoever.

 

[MaryT777]

I wonder how those who view themselves as transgender and stumble across CAF threads like one respond to the language used here. I wonder if anyone here actually thinks of this before posting.

Someone who is transgendered and “stumbles across” a thread on transgenderism should not at all be surprised by the responses here.

This is CATHOLIC answers forums. So the views here by most persons will reflect the Catholic Church and its views on the issue. Granted some disagree with the Church but that’s another threadd

A review on the teachings and thoughts of the church on those who struggle with gender dysphoria are well stated by this Father.

Transgenderism, transsexualism,
gender dysphoria, & gender identity
Part 1 of 2 parts:
Status of, causes of, & cures for, transexuality
according to the Roman Catholic Church

Fr. William P. Saunders:
A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

“I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?” 1,2
Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II document titled: "Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World." It stated that:
“Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.”
When applied to transsexuality, the document implies that a person with Gender Dysphoria must accept their body as it is. Surgically modifying one’s body would be a serious sin.
****The implication is that one’s body is not one’s own to be changed at will.
Finally, he quotes the **Catholic Catechism, item 2297:
"Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against He also quotes Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19:
**“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
the moral law."
The process of sexual reassignment involves major changes to the persons body:
For a male-to-female (MTF) transsexual, this typically involves removal of the penis, testicles, and scrotum. It involves hormone treatment and perhaps surgery to enlarge the breasts, removing part of the Adam’s apple, and/or changing the shape of her face.

For a female-to-male (FTM) transsexual it generally involves the surgical removal of the breasts, uterus, ovaries, as well as hormone treatment and perhaps the construction of an artificial penis,* Fr. Sanders refers to this as:
“… a radical and grotesque mutilation of the body…To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity. **Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.”
**

The link will show you the author disagrees with Father and the Catholic Church on all matters noted above, but the Father did a good job of presenting Biblical and Catechetical references regarding this issue.

religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htm

 

[Cherry5]

Someone who is transgendered and “stumbles across” a thread on transgenderism should not at all be surprised by the responses here.

This is CATHOLIC answers forums. So the views here by most persons will reflect the Catholic Church and its views on the issue. Granted some disagree with the Church but that’s another threadd

A review on the teachings and thoughts of the church on those who struggle with gender dysphoria are well stated by this Father.

Transgenderism, transsexualism,
gender dysphoria, & gender identity
Part 1 of 2 parts:
Status of, causes of, & cures for, transexuality
according to the Roman Catholic Church

Fr. William P. Saunders:
A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

“I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?” 1,2
Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II document titled: "Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World." It stated that:
“Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.”
When applied to transsexuality, the document implies that a person with Gender Dysphoria must accept their body as it is. Surgically modifying one’s body would be a serious sin.
****The implication is that one’s body is not one’s own to be changed at will.
Finally, he quotes the **Catholic Catechism, item 2297:
"Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against He also quotes Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19:
**“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
the moral law."
The process of sexual reassignment involves major changes to the persons body:
For a male-to-female (MTF) transsexual, this typically involves removal of the penis, testicles, and scrotum. It involves hormone treatment and perhaps surgery to enlarge the breasts, removing part of the Adam’s apple, and/or changing the shape of her face.

For a female-to-male (FTM) transsexual it generally involves the surgical removal of the breasts, uterus, ovaries, as well as hormone treatment and perhaps the construction of an artificial penis,* Fr. Sanders refers to this as:
“… a radical and grotesque mutilation of the body…To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity. **Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.”
**

The link will show you the author disagrees with Father and the Catholic Church on all matters noted above, but the Father did a good job of presenting Biblical and Catechetical references regarding this issue.

religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htm

It is precisely posts like this that drives Catholics away from the Church, Much of the quotes above have been completely taken out of context to support bigotry and prejudice, here is one example:
"2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. **Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons **are against the moral law.91

2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors."

The Quote has absolutely NOTHING to do with transgender. when the contents of the link in the post at the end are considered it is clear that the interpretation from Fr Sanders lacks any semblance of charity or true Christian love. our Lord would never subscribe to this rigid stand that is completely inaccurate and tries to enforce the letters of the “perceived” Law

People who post this malicious articles without any due diligence are culpable and have a hand to play in the suicides and rejection of the Church.

 

[Jeanne_S]

You know nothing about me nor what I’ve experienced in my life.People with those illnesses need to be treated, not told that it’s okay to be mentally ill. The ‘transgendered’ are no different than schizophrenics, bipolar, or anyone else who is suffering from mental health. Coddling them and pretending that reality isn’t real doesn’t do them any favors whatsoever.

The really frightening concern re the issue of transgender proclivities,is that they are being normalized as just another gender option.Rather than being called out as a mental health issue that requires professional help.Add to the the push to indoctrinate our children as young as three that all of this is acceptable.

 

[MaryT777]

It is precisely posts like this that drives Catholics away from the Church, Much of the quotes above have been completely taken out of context to support bigotry and prejudice, here is one example:
"2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. **Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons **are against the moral law.91

2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors."

The Quote has absolutely NOTHING to do with transgender. when the contents of the link in the post at the end are considered it is clear that the interpretation from Fr Sanders lacks any semblance of charity or true Christian love. our Lord would never subscribe to this rigid stand that is completely inaccurate and tries to enforce the letters of the “perceived” Law

People who post this malicious articles without any due diligence are culpable and have a hand to play in the suicides and rejection of the Church.

So you feel the Priest’s comments that reference our Catholic Catechism and the Bible truly are “malicious.” ?

Our Lord would never subscribe to a rigid stance that one should mutilate the body that Christ gave them.

I didn’t write the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor did I write the Bible. You’ll have to take it up with God and the authors of the Catechism.

Mary.

 

[Cherry5]

So you feel the Priest’s comments that reference our Catholic Catechism and the Bible truly are “malicious.” ?

Our Lord would never subscribe to a rigid stance that one should mutilate the body that Christ gave them.

I didn’t write the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor did I write the Bible. You’ll have to take it up with God and the authors of the Catechism.

Mary.

Yes, you did not write the Catechism, but to use it completely out of context knowing it hurts others is irresponsible and deplorable.

To suggest psychological treatment to “cure” being transgender knowing that it has been tried over and over again with disastrous results is just cruel.

 

[MaryT777]

Yes, you did not write the Catechism, but to use it completely out of context knowing it hurts others is irresponsible and deplorable.

To suggest psychological treatment to “cure” being transgender knowing that it has been tried over and over again with disastrous results is just cruel.

It’s not out of any context. The article does not say psychological treatment will cure being transgender.

Here are the credentials of the priest that answered the question noted in the article:

2001: Response by Fr. William P. Saunders:

A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

“I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?” 1,2
Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II …

Take it up with Father Saunders who is well credentialed and a columnist.

religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htmhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htm

Mary.

 

[gracepoole]

You know nothing about me nor what I’ve experienced in my life.People with those illnesses need to be treated, not told that it’s okay to be mentally ill. The ‘transgendered’ are no different than schizophrenics, bipolar, or anyone else who is suffering from mental health. Coddling them and pretending that reality isn’t real doesn’t do them any favors whatsoever.

I know of you what you post here. And what you’ve said directly here is that the “truth hurts” and you believe those who identify as transgendered are mental unstable. I then logically asked if you take the same “truth hurts” approach to those suffering from other mental illnesses. What *you *don’t know is whether the folks you’re referring to *are *receiving treatment. I assume from your comments that you’re not a mental health professional. Yet you seem to be determining how to engage with those who identify as transgendered (who you believe are mentally ill) without the assistance of mental health professionals. That seems unwise on its face.

 

[gracepoole]

Someone who is transgendered and “stumbles across” a thread on transgenderism should not at all be surprised by the responses here.

Oh, I’m quite sure they wouldn’t be surprised. I’m quite sure they’re accustomed to hearing extremely negative things directed at them.

This is CATHOLIC answers forums. So the views here by most persons will reflect the Catholic Church and its views on the issue.

No one here has asked Catholics not to reflect the Church’s views. How does the Church tell us to treat those who identify as transgendered? Does it tell us to scorn them and refer to them as “a political fad,” “trendy,” etc.?