Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’

[pnewton]

I wonder if the new pagans could be those leaders that fail to clean their own house of horrendous crimes committed against children by their own.

I do not see how that would fit.

 

[Tigg]

I believe your are right, but I think it also lends less credence to the idea we are in a growing crisis. We cannot say both that priests are becoming more orthodox and less orthodox at the same time. I am more of the same mind you are, that it is the older generation that is passing that was the fuel to the Spirit of Vatican II issues the Bishop described. Perhaps in his experience, as a younger bishop, he is more greatly beset by this older generation.

My personal understanding of crisis is the loss of the faith in growing numbers as is evidenced by many things - just look at the staggering numbers of closing parishes throughout the country. And even in certain ethnic groups who were once known to be mainly Catholic, but are now shifting to evangelicalism. Catholics are losing their identity and most surely do not know their faith. We have become Protestantized as the chant is heard, “the faith is caught, not taught.” If we are not grounded in our faith tradition, then we become prey to political and social influences and lose our way. If authentic worship and focus on the Eucharist is not there, then we begin to worship ourselves.

 

[Pancras]

^ This !!

What I’ve noticed is a disturbing trend in some parishes (not our own) that before Mass many are more eager to see their friends in the pew than acknowledge Christ. Back slaps, hugs, handshakes and greetings are done in the aisle before even acknowledging the presence of Christ by genuflecting. Then immediately as the priest exits after the concluding hymn, applause is given (for whom or for what has not exactly been determined) and the noise level rises in the nave as they visit with one another and if one wishes to silently say a prayer of thanksgiving after Mass, lots of luck with that one. I abhor the social hall atmosphere in our sacred worship space.

We are now in a generation where most anyone under 30 has never known anything different.

During Vatican II (1962-65) all the Catholic churches in the world were places where there was an abiding silence before, during and after Mass. No one set foot in a church and made noise. It just wasn’t done. The tabernacle was always in the front center, and the whole design of the church was centered on that place (very few contrary examples had been built and they were the exception). Anyone going into a protestant assembly service would see the difference immediately, because it was just as you describe: “Back slaps, hugs, handshakes and greetings are done in the aisle,” and now, genuflecting has practically evaporated. At Queen of Angels Cathedral in Los Angeles, when you walk in the front door, there is no holy water font. You have to first walk all the way across the nave to the other side to touch the water in the open pool they use for baptism. Most people don’t bother. There are no Stations of the Cross on the walls (you have to go into the basement utility room for Stations) and so Stations are not done inside the main church.
.

 

[McCall1981]

My personal understanding of crisis is the loss of the faith in growing numbers as is evidenced by many things - just look at the staggering numbers of closing parishes throughout the country. And even in certain ethnic groups who were once known to be mainly Catholic, but are now shifting to evangelicalism. Catholics are losing their identity and most surely do not know their faith. We have become Protestantized as the chant is heard, “the faith is caught, not taught.” If we are not grounded in our faith tradition, then we become prey to political and social influences and lose our way. If authentic worship and focus on the Eucharist is not there, then we begin to worship ourselves.

 

[Mark121359]

My personal understanding of crisis is the loss of the faith in growing numbers as is evidenced by many things - just look at the staggering numbers of closing parishes throughout the country. And even in certain ethnic groups who were once known to be mainly Catholic, but are now shifting to evangelicalism. Catholics are losing their identity and most surely do not know their faith. We have become Protestantized as the chant is heard, “the faith is caught, not taught.” If we are not grounded in our faith tradition, then we become prey to political and social influences and lose our way. If authentic worship and focus on the Eucharist is not there, then we begin to worship ourselves.

:tiphat: Tigg, spot-on as usual.

Peace, Mark

 

[Denise1957]

How awesome is this! And who can find fault with it?

Well, some folks are uncomfortable with the Bishop’s description of the Crisis, which is perhaps understandable. I don’t think that Bp. Schneider expects that everyone should or will agree with him. His perspective is perhaps unique, due to his very devout parents, and especially his mother who went to great lengths to help priests and also to bring communion to Catholics during the Cold War. Catholics then (and priests, too) were willing to risk their lives to bring Communion to others, and I expect that a loss of reverence by some Catholics in regards to Holy Eucharist is disturbing to him. And of course he sees the problem with dissenting bishops (mainly in Germany, I think).

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but some of the German bishops were a big headache for Pope Benedict to deal with. I recall the letter to the German Bishops written by Pope Benedict regarding the lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX bishops, since some of the German Bishops were very much against the lifting of the excommunications (and I don’t want to get into a discussion about that. I’m only using it as an example of the problems with those bishops).

 

[Mark121359]

To me, one of, if not ***the ***biggest crisis of the faith here in the U.S. at least, is the belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist…or more accurately, the lack there of. It’s reported that only 30% of American Catholics believe in the Real Presence. Now using Wikipedia, they say there are roughly 78 million members of the Catholic Church here in the U.S. 30 % of that would be 23,400,000 who believe. Compare that with 54,600,000 who do not believe. I don’t know where to begin with that. That is so staggering, that it leaves me utterly speechless! Crisis in the Church?..You think? Catholics are going through a crisis alright. A crisis of truth. Not in the Truth that the Church teaches, but ***accepting *** the Truth that the Church teaches!

“Well, toward morning the conversation turned on the Eucharist, which I, being the Catholic, was obviously supposed to defend. [Mary McCarthy] said when she was a child and received the Host, she thought of it as the Holy Ghost, He being the ‘most portable’ person of the Trinity; now she thought of it as a symbol and implied that it was a pretty good one. I then said, in a very shaky voice, ***‘Well, if it’s a symbol, to hell with it.’ ***That was all the defense I was capable of but I realize now that this is all I will ever be able to say about it, outside of a story, except that it is the center of existence for me; all the rest of life is expendable.” – Flannery O’Connor

Peace, Mark

 

[Denise1957]

To me, one of, if not ***the ***biggest crisis of the faith here in the U.S. at least, is the belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist…or more accurately, the lack there of. It’s reported that only 30% of American Catholics believe in the Real Presence. Now using Wikipedia, they say there are roughly 78 million members of the Catholic Church here in the U.S. 30 % of that would be 23,400,000 who believe. Compare that with 54,600,000 who do not believe. I don’t know where to begin with that. That is so staggering, that it leaves me utterly speechless! Crisis in the Church?..You think? Catholics are going through a crisis alright. A crisis of truth. Not in the Truth that the Church teaches, but ***accepting *** the Truth that the Church teaches!

Peace, Mark

Well put, Mark. I like what Flannery O’Connor said about holy Eucharist in the quote you gave regarding Holy Eucharist being the very center of existence for her. It should be the very center of existence for all of us, since we are closest to Our Lord when we receive Him in Holy Communion.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

To me, one of, if not ***the ***biggest crisis of the faith here in the U.S. at least, is the belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist…or more accurately, the lack there of. It’s reported that only 30% of American Catholics believe in the Real Presence.

I think the problem with statistics like this comes from defining who is Catholic.

If you ask a group of people what religion they are, a certain number will say they’re Catholic. Then you ask what they believe about the Eucharist and you get some number that say they believe in the Real Presence.

But if you ask that same group if they go to Mass weekly or almost weekly, you will probably get a much smaller number. And of those who regularly attend Mass, you will probably get a much higher percentage who believe in the Real Presence. In part, that’s why they attend Mass.

Of the cultural Catholics who attend Mass once or twice a year, there is probably a much higher percentage who see the Eucharist as primarily symbolic. So it skews the statistics if you lump them in with practicing Catholics. If those people came to believe in the Real Presence, far more of them would probably be practicing Catholics. But which came first, the lack of belief or the lack of practice? And how do you change that and evangelize those people?

I don’t think it’s by preaching to the choir or by telling people that they need to kneel at a communion rail. It’s by getting out in the world and showing them God’s love for them, by inviting them into a deeper relationship with him. In other words, by following the example of Pope Francis.

 

[ProVobis]

But which came first, the lack of belief or the lack of practice? And how do you change that and evangelize those people?

I don’t think it’s by preaching to the choir or by telling people that they need to kneel at a communion rail. It’s by getting out in the world and showing them God’s love for them, by inviting them into a deeper relationship with him. In other words, by following the example of Pope Francis.

That’s just it. How do you get people to preach the Gospel if they don’t know what it is? Even if they go to Mass, many probably don’t have a clue as to what goes on, except that they have to go.

 

[anixx]

I don’t think it’s by preaching to the choir or by telling people that they need to kneel at a communion rail. It’s by getting out in the world and showing them God’s love for them, by inviting them into a deeper relationship with him. In other words, by following the example of Pope Francis.

Deeper relationship with God comes precisely through knowing the faith better, getting to know the Lord as he presented himself, not building a personal image about him, or in other words, creating your own personal God.

 

[FollowChrist34]

What Catholic here can deny this? Tremendous confusion to be sure. The majority of Catholics see no conflict whatsoever with their support for contraception, homosexuality, the ordination of women, divorce, gay marriage, sex outside marriage, etc. etc. etc., and their Catholic Faith. It’s pretty much become the new “norm.” I’d even go so far as to say that you’ll probably have a much easier time finding a dissenting Catholic than a faithful Catholic. The overwhelming majority dissent on one issue or another, and don’t even bat an eye at it.

Yes, this is what I am talking about when I use the word “paganism.” I confess to being mystified at how people cannot see this as a modern crisis in the Church. Also, if you are a Bible reader, right - Exodus, Deuteronomy, worshippers of Baal, the golden calf, Psalms, prophets, Jesus fulfilling the Law and the prophets, Paul in Romans, Corinthians, well, everywhere in the Bible really, from Genesis to Revelation. From a biblical perspective, it’s pretty hard to miss the theme of man’s choice of life in submission to the revelation of God or life in submission to self and how his priorities stem from that choice. Paul is literally talking to the pagan world. In fact, you can argue that at least the Romans have the excuse of not knowing Christ to justify their self-centeredness. Do we? There’s more to being a Christian than just feeling good and loving everybody. The great battle right now is the attempt of secularism to undermine the integrity of Christianity and to infuse it with pagan self-justification.

Another point - I think those of us in the West can learn a lot from Christians who have undergone serious persecution or institutionalized hostility to Christianity (and are still alive to talk to us about it). To the point where you can’t hold Mass, are driven underground, live in real fear of exposure or harm because of your faith, etc. None of us have been tested like that. (At least I haven’t.) I think you learn just how much you love God and his Church. But I do think a lot of people drop off at this point too. You don’t actually know how far you’ll go until you have to do it. The Church WILL get smaller. The gate after all is narrow. I think it’s good not bad to stay focused on that. You will be a better Christian for it.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, this is what I am talking about when I use the word “paganism.” I confess to being mystified at how people cannot see this as a modern crisis in the Church. Also, if you are a Bible reader, right - Exodus, Deuteronomy, worshippers of Baal, the golden calf, Psalms, prophets, Jesus fulfilling the Law and the prophets, Paul in Romans, Corinthians, well, everywhere in the Bible really, from Genesis to Revelation. From a biblical perspective, it’s pretty hard to miss the theme of man’s choice of life in submission to the revelation of God or life in submission to self and how his priorities stem from that choice. Paul is literally talking to the pagan world.

Paul spoke literally, as did Jeremiah and Moses. However, where is there a golden calf? More to the point, where in the Church is a literal idol? Then we get to idols that are not literal. Of course people have those thing which they elevate above God in their life. Yet the Church has been for two thousand years a refuge for the sinful.

The Church is actually growing, if we can put aside our provincial thinking and remember universality is bound in the very meaning of Catholic. In the developed world, the Church is faced with a growing wave of atheism and humanism, as it has been for a couple of centuries now. The Church has not capitulated though. Doctrine is still taught and orthodoxy is still strong.

 

[McCall1981]

Paul spoke literally, as did Jeremiah and Moses. However, where is there a golden calf? More to the point, where in the Church is a literal idol? Then we get to idols that are not literal. Of course people have those thing which they elevate above God in their life. Yet the Church has been for two thousand years a refuge for the sinful.

The Church is actually growing, if we can put aside our provincial thinking and remember universality is bound in the very meaning of Catholic. In the developed world, the Church is faced with a growing wave of atheism and humanism, as it has been for a couple of centuries now. The Church has not capitulated though. Doctrine is still taught and orthodoxy is still strong.

Given the statistics we’ve all recently seen for the Synod on how many Catholics dissent from orthodoxy, I don’t think it’s remotely realistic to believe that “doctrine is still taught and orthodoxy is still strong”.

 

[Megan7]

catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/06/06/bishop-athanasius-schneider-we-are-in-the-fourth-great-crisis-of-the-church/

**Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’
**

During a trip to England the Soviet-born bishop says the Church today is experiencing ‘tremendous confusion’

By SARAH ATKINSON

Liberals, collaborating with the “new paganism”, are driving the Catholic Church towards a split, according to Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the liturgical specialist who is carrying on a rearguard fight against “abuses” in the Church.

So serious are the problems, Bishop Schneider said in an interview last week, that this is the fourth great crisis in the history of the Church, comparable to the fourth-century Arian heresy in which a large part of the Church hierarchy was implicated.

If you have not heard of the Soviet-born bishop, you will. The sincere, scholarly clergyman is auxiliary bishop of the distant Archdiocese of St Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan. But this month he has received a rock star welcome from congregations across the country on his tour of England and he has embraced cyberspace to put over a trenchant, traditional defence of the Church. “Thanks be to God, the internet exists,” he said.

I have not read this yet. But, I love this Bishop, God bless him! Thanks

 

[Megan7]

Excellent article, and God bless Bishop Schneider! It was a pleasure seeing him in Omaha about a week ago as he ordained 7 men into the holy priesthood. His book is also fantastic and I encourage everyone to read it (book can be found on Amazon).

The name of his wonderful book is “Dominus Est-It is the Lord”

It is a very thin book, paperback for about $7 & it is sold on Amazon. I loved it. I encourage others to get it as well. Wonderful read. I LOVE love this Holy Bishop. God bless him.

Thanks Larson:thumbsup:

 

[FollowChrist34]

The Church is actually growing, if we can put aside our provincial thinking and remember universality is bound in the very meaning of Catholic. In the developed world, the Church is faced with a growing wave of atheism and humanism, as it has been for a couple of centuries now. The Church has not capitulated though. Doctrine is still taught and orthodoxy is still strong.

Well, surely, it’s fairer to say the Church is growing in some places, Africa, Asia, etc. and struggling mightily in places like Europe and the US. What is it, a third of Catholics who regularly go to Mass? And how many of them profess orthodoxy? “Doctrine is still taught” - I question that, at least that it’s been taught widely and consistently for the last 50 years. I came into the Church as an adult, reverted Catholic; I received no doctrinal training ever. I read the CCC, etc.

I agree and am very happy that the Church has not capitulated to atheism or humanism. Long may that continue. And I agree the true Church never will. But there could be a split. I wouldn’t rule it out. It will be interesting to see where the synods take us. I have again been encouraged by the tone of Pope Francis in that last month or so. I like the way he knocked off the annulment/divorce debate and brought focus back on protecting the family. I do think that pulls everything back into orthodoxy. I think it’s significant that he stepped up to do that. I also noted this Bishop’s positive comments on the Pope. So all is well, I guess, no matter how it all falls out!

 

[Mark121359]

The name of his wonderful book is “Dominus Est-It is the Lord”

It is a very thin book, paperback for about $7 & it is sold on Amazon. I loved it. I encourage others to get it as well. Wonderful read. I LOVE love this Holy Bishop. God bless him.

Thanks Larson:thumbsup:

Megan7, You might be interested in his appearance on EWTN Live with Fr. Mitch Pacwa a little while back. It’s well worth watching if you get the chance. He sure does make one powerful case here!..youtube.com/watch?v=QbAZezVk5Gk

P.S. Thanks for your reference for his book!

Peace, Mark

 

[McCall1981]

Well, surely, it’s fairer to say the Church is growing in some places, Africa, Asia, etc. and struggling mightily in places like Europe and the US. What is it, a third of Catholics who regularly go to Mass? And how many of them profess orthodoxy? “Doctrine is still taught” - I question that, at least that it’s been taught widely and consistently for the last 50 years. I came into the Church as an adult, reverted Catholic; I received no doctrinal training ever. I read the CCC, etc.

I agree and am very happy that the Church has not capitulated to atheism or humanism. Long may that continue. And I agree the true Church never will. But there could be a split. I wouldn’t rule it out. **It will be interesting to see where the synods take us. I have again been encouraged by the tone of Pope Francis in that last month or so. I like the way he knocked off the annulment/divorce debate and brought focus back on protecting the family. I do think that pulls everything back into orthodoxy. I think it’s significant that he stepped up to do that. I also noted this Bishop’s positive comments on the Pope. So all is well, I guess, no matter how it all falls out! **

I don’t quite have your level of confidence, but it was good reading this and I (tentatively) agree

 

[pnewton]

Given the statistics we’ve all recently seen for the Synod on how many Catholics dissent from orthodoxy, I don’t think it’s remotely realistic to believe that “doctrine is still taught and orthodoxy is still strong”.

Really, then why are the young priests coming up looked to as more orthodox, as has been noted here? Doctrine is not being taught? We have had some wonderful encyclicals in the last few decades, as well as a great theologian in St. John Paul II. His Theology of the Body alone stands as testimony that sound doctrine is being taught.