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jwinch2
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Agreed. Unless we are in a time of declared war or something along those lines, running a huge federal or state deficit is absolutely wrong. You cannot continue to spend what you do not have and load the responsibility up on the next person in line or the next generation of tax payers. Not morally anyway.
I don’t really look at it that way, though I see where you are coming from. I look at the amount of money we are spending per person, or per service. To me, that is a good measure of the efficiency and effectiveness of a program. If we are spending significantly more to provide a service through the government than it would cost on the private market, then there is a problem somewhere. Take Medicaid for example. As compared to the private sector, providers actually make less money on the services that they provide but it costs the taxpayers much more. Why? Because of a massive and huge government bureaucracy which bloats the cost of everything. Why not just cut out the middle man and give people the money to buy insurance on the private market? It would reduce the size of government, increase money to providers which would then create more taxes and revenue, and probably lead to better care. Then, while they are at it, they could allow insurance companies to work across state lines, allow for exchanges, which would increase competition leading to improved services and driving down costs.
When I see the amount of money we are spending per person in the United States in largely failed attempts to help the poor, I know that money is not the issue at hand.
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ljpgoodwin
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One way to get stats on this kind of spending is through what are called Pass Through agencies. I think every State has a “Pass Through” agency that is responsible for the distribution of federal and state grant monies.
Then there is always
grants.gov/
usa.gov/Topics/Reference-Shelf/Data.shtml
These are often useful places to get stats.
It is kinda big and combersome. I can’t imagine what it would be like to get stats on a company like Shell Oil that is internatioal!!
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ljpgoodwin
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One could say that would could also try to figure out what are expenses are going to be and find the revenue to support that.
For example, every year the diocese of Los Angeles estimates what its expenses might be and includes a line item for last years surplus or deficit and asks all the parishes to contribute their share of the expenses.
Obviously it is not an idea that will go over well here, but it is another model that works for a lot of entities.
For example, every year the diocese of Los Angeles estimates what its expenses might be and includes a line item for last years surplus or deficit and asks all the parishes to contribute their share of the expenses.
Obviously it is not an idea that will go over well here, but it is another model that works for a lot of entities.
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ljpgoodwin
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Thanks, I have seen this. It’s a nice Apostolic Letter.
Did you see the from Vatican 2 Gaudium et spes the Pastoral Constitution of the Church and Christus Dominus Decree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops also from the Second Vatican Council?
What is the difference between an apostolic letter, a pastoral constitution and a papal decree, I wonder?
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ljpgoodwin
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Oh,Faithful Citizenship. That is a helpful document. Thanks Swiss Guy!
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rlg94086
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Exactly. They inform my conscience and guide my actions. I never ignore the bishops or the USCCB. That said, I can still come to a different prudential judgement.
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anthony022071
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Some of the bishops do not support a national health care plan. In the past few years there has been more discussion about the importance of subsidiarity and the danger of having the government providing and controlling everyone’s health care.
catholiccitizen.com/2010/03/pope-and-catholic-bishops-dont-support.html
lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/sep/09091811
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=3945
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14639
That was Jason who complained about your text. I agree with him that your font change makes it difficult to separate your quotes from ours.
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Ridgerunner
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One NY cop is not “the NYPD”. He is one cop.
One or two bishops or lay bureaucrats on the USCCB do not constitute “the bishops of the U.S.” If you believe it is so, then please provide us with the roll call vote of all the bishops who voted to condemn the Ryan plan. It would also be helpful to know on what exact bases they did so, if they did.
I did not say the USCCB is a “rogue” group of bishops. That’s your characterization, not mine. The USCCB is a largely lay bureaucracy supported by the donations of the faithful. It has committees on which some bishops and some lay people serve. It has administrative people, largely lay persons, who spend the money. The USCCB has been criticized, not as “the bishops” but as a lay group, for contributing donation money to such organizations as ACORN and other political groups.
Like any bureaucracy, the USCCB has certain institutionalized dispositions which do not necessarily square with the purposes for which the faithful donate money, or even with the will of various bishops. That is one of the reasons by own bishop has disouraged donations to CCHD in favor of other Church charitable organizations.
It’s too bad that the expressions of one or two bishops or some layperson at USCCB is somehow represented as the moral position of “the bishops”. It’s no wonder so many Catholics are confused about what the Church actually teaches.
Hopefully, as more of Pope Benedict’s appointees take their places, the USCCB will one day be reformed so it is no longer something that can be used by politicians to serve their own objectives.
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ljpgoodwin
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ljpgoodwin
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So are you saying that Timothy Dolan is not the president of the USCCB?
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KSU
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"The USCCB is a largely lay bureaucracy supported by the donations of the faithful. "—Ridgerunner
Not that we have an option, of course.
Not that we have an option, of course.
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KSU
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Bishop Stephen Blaire, chairman of the US bishops’ Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, is the bishop of Stockton, California. He was not in favor of the strategy of filing lawsuits against the HHS contraceptive mandate, and said that Congressman Paul Ryan’s proposed budget does not meet Catholic tests of morality.
Meanwhile, the budgets of Stockton, California, have led to this:
QUOTE By Diana Marcum, Los Angeles Times
June 26, 2012, 10:04 p.m.
STOCKTON — This Gold Rush-era port city, an epicenter of California’s agricultural exports, will become the nation’s largest city to seek protection under the U.S. bankruptcy code after its City Council on Tuesday stopped bond payments, slashed employee health and retirement benefits and adopted a day-to-day survival budget.
City Manager Bob Deis likened the process to cutting off an arm to save the body. He is expected to file bankruptcy papers immediately. END QUOTE
The questions arise: were the very un-Ryan-like Stockton budgets immoral because of the harm they did to the common good? Had Bishop Blaire ever labeled them so? What does this imply about Bishop Blaire’s tests of immoral fiscal policy?
Meanwhile, the budgets of Stockton, California, have led to this:
QUOTE By Diana Marcum, Los Angeles Times
June 26, 2012, 10:04 p.m.
STOCKTON — This Gold Rush-era port city, an epicenter of California’s agricultural exports, will become the nation’s largest city to seek protection under the U.S. bankruptcy code after its City Council on Tuesday stopped bond payments, slashed employee health and retirement benefits and adopted a day-to-day survival budget.
City Manager Bob Deis likened the process to cutting off an arm to save the body. He is expected to file bankruptcy papers immediately. END QUOTE
The questions arise: were the very un-Ryan-like Stockton budgets immoral because of the harm they did to the common good? Had Bishop Blaire ever labeled them so? What does this imply about Bishop Blaire’s tests of immoral fiscal policy?
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KSU
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Don’t know if it’s required, but here is the link for the quote in my above post:
latimes.com/news/local/la-me-stockton-bankruptcy-20120627,0,2285815.story
latimes.com/news/local/la-me-stockton-bankruptcy-20120627,0,2285815.story
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JimG
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An interesting juxtaposition. It demonstrates that simply trying to provide economic benefits which people may think is required by Catholic social teaching is entirely ineffective if not counterproductive if it leads to bankruptcy, as it did in the case of Stockton. The moral of the story is that distribution of benefits first requires that there be sufficient income. Income is not created ex nihilo, and if it is, the results are even worse.
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KSU
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catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14401Good info to know. But is there any source to the bolded part? Thanks in advance.
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markomalley
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Timothy Dolan is, of course, the president of the USCCB. However, as mentioned above,
Can. 455 §4. In cases in which neither universal law nor a special mandate of the Apostolic See has granted the power mentioned in §1 to a conference of bishops, the competence of each diocesan bishop remains intact, nor is a conference or its president able to act in the name of all the bishops unless each and every bishop has given consent.
The bottom line is that His Eminence Cardinal Dolan may speak, as Ordinary of the Archdiocese of New York, in any capacity allowed by law. Cardinal Dolan may speak as president of the USCCB. However, Cardinal Dolan may not speak on an issue in the name of all the bishops unless each bishop has given consent. There is a BIG difference.
(Having said that, I am not familiar with any case where Cardinal Dolan has taken it upon himself to do so. Typically what happens is that he makes a statement and then some media outlet attributes his statement as being made in the name of all the bishops)
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ljpgoodwin
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I suspect that Catholic Answers Forums is going to explode tomorrow. I’ll see you all after the dust settles.
Do have fun y’all.
Do have fun y’all.
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