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BSHoop96
Guest
You want him to consult with fellow priests or lay members who are the ones causing the problems? And ask them what??? He needs to do just what he apparently did. Tell them to clean up their act.
Bishop Morlino Sacks Dissident Feminist Pastoral Associate, Elicits Rage from Liberal Community
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J
JReducation
Guest
I will say this, from my own area of expertise. The diocese seems to have been in very bad shape for many years before the current bishop took over. I would conclude that the bishop inherited a very difficult situation. The spiritual life of the diocese is weak, though I’m sure that there are pockets where there is strong spirituality at work.
The work of the bishop is to bring those pockets together and to deal with any attitudes, practices and omissions that do not allow those stronger spiritual cells to come together into a harmonious unity.
Whether we agree with his approach or not is another question. We must first agree on the the common ground. We want ever diocese to have a strong spiritual life that leads all men to a mystical union with the Divine. I doubt that any good Catholic is not going to agree with this.
The next point to discuss is the process that will bring people together. Do bishops make mistakes? Of course they do. Do they do so with some sinister plan in mind? Very rarely.
Are Bishop Morlino’s methods the best methods to bring about the spiritual unity of his diocese? Some are probably very appropriate and effective and others could be improved upon.
The role of the rest of the Church: religious, clergy and secular people is to support those methods that are appropriate and give some concrete suggestions on how to improve those methods that the bishop may be using that can be improved.
To conclude, always select the common ground. What is it that we all long for? Work from there. Identify the methods are are appropriate to make that goal a reality and support them. Identify the methods that can use improvement and do not critisize. Offer improvements.
This is the holy way of building up the Body of Christ.
Fraternally,
JR
The work of the bishop is to bring those pockets together and to deal with any attitudes, practices and omissions that do not allow those stronger spiritual cells to come together into a harmonious unity.
Whether we agree with his approach or not is another question. We must first agree on the the common ground. We want ever diocese to have a strong spiritual life that leads all men to a mystical union with the Divine. I doubt that any good Catholic is not going to agree with this.
The next point to discuss is the process that will bring people together. Do bishops make mistakes? Of course they do. Do they do so with some sinister plan in mind? Very rarely.
Are Bishop Morlino’s methods the best methods to bring about the spiritual unity of his diocese? Some are probably very appropriate and effective and others could be improved upon.
The role of the rest of the Church: religious, clergy and secular people is to support those methods that are appropriate and give some concrete suggestions on how to improve those methods that the bishop may be using that can be improved.
To conclude, always select the common ground. What is it that we all long for? Work from there. Identify the methods are are appropriate to make that goal a reality and support them. Identify the methods that can use improvement and do not critisize. Offer improvements.
This is the holy way of building up the Body of Christ.
Fraternally,
JR
P
pnewton
Guest
Anyone who received the Sacraments there need to seriously see about talking to a priest. The baptism you described is invalid, not have the formula required for validity. The so-called Eucharist was also invalid, as it did not have valid matter. The illicit stuff is minor compared to these most grave of errors.Sometimes Lifesite spins things a bit much. This one rings true to me.
I went to the UW-Madison from 1989 to 1993. The Newmann Center on campus was barely recognizable as catholic. For example:
- Crumbly bread used as hosts. After communion, the polished concrete floor with littered with ‘crumbs!’
- Every communicant was an EMHC for the guy behind him.
- “Our Father, our Mother - God, who art in heaven…”
- “In the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier…”
- Female pastoral associate who donned vestments (no stole at least), and stood beside the priest and (unmiked) mouthed the words of consecration at mass. She also lifted the chalice at the Great Amen.
- Same woman gave homiles about half the time while father sat.
(Given the timeline, I wonder if this is the same woman, at a new parish??)
There may well be some who were baptized with water into something, but it was not the Catholic Church.
J
JReducation
Guest
The saving grace here as far as the baptisms are concerned may be (I’m not an expert in Sacramental Theology) that the bishop may invoke Baptism of desire, if Rome allows it. Rather than try to find all those people and baptize again.
The invalid Eucharist is a done deal and there is not much that we can do to go back and change it. The only thing to do is go forward and ensure that it does not happen again.
This man has clearly inherited a mess. I don’t want to be in his shoes.
Fraternally,
JR
P
pnewton
Guest
Then let us judge these groups by their fruit: schism, rebellion and disobedience. If they are operating outside of the authority of the bishop, then they are also outside the Holy Catholic Church. We can add one more invalid Sacrament - Reconcilliation. This is not valid without faculties from the Bishop.
We must not muck around with the Sacraments as this is where salvation is found. I do not know what the numbers are really, nor do I think it important. Broad is the way that leads to destruction.
J
JReducation
Guest
You are correct. Again, the bishop may have to invoke an old rule for the sake of the penitent, The Church supplies.
It is unfortunate, because bishops should not have to invoke all of these rules if things are done appropriately.
Fraternally,
JR
T
twf
Guest
I’m sorry…but the RECENT past??? This practice died out in the early Middle Ages…that’s hardly recent by any stretch of the imagination.
B
BSHoop96
Guest
JR…not sure if you were directing this at my response or in general. If it was to me, I’m a little confused as I am in agreement with the Bishop, not the OP.Being a major in Mystical Theology and not Moral Theology, I do not feel competent to say with any authority that this is moral relitivism.
But I will say this, from my own area of expertise. The diocese seems to have been in very bad shape for many years before the current bishop took over. I would conclude that the bishop inherited a very difficult situation. The spiritual life of the diocese is weak, though I’m sure that there are pockets where there is strong spirituality at work.
The work of the bishop is to bring those pockets together and to deal with any attitudes, practices and omissions that do not allow those stronger spiritual cells to come together into a harmonious unity.
Whether we agree with his approach or not is another question. We must first agree on the the common ground. We want ever diocese to have a strong spiritual life that leads all men to a mystical union with the Divine. I doubt that any good Catholic is not going to agree with this.
The next point to discuss is the process that will bring people together. Do bishops make mistakes? Of course they do. Do they do so with some sinister plan in mind? Very rarely.
Are Bishop Morlino’s methods the best methods to bring about the spiritual unity of his diocese? Some are probably very appropriate and effective and others could be improved upon.
The role of the rest of the Church: religious, clergy and secular people is to support those methods that are appropriate and give some concrete suggestions on how to improve those methods that the bishop may be using that can be improved.
To conclude, always select the common ground. What is it that we all long for? Work from there. Identify the methods are are appropriate to make that goal a reality and support them. Identify the methods that can use improvement and do not critisize. Offer improvements.
This is the holy way of building up the Body of Christ.
Fraternally,
JR
My point was that because the Bishop has had to “crack down” in his diocese, thereby making some people mad, causing them to leave, causing the pews to be less full, **does not **in any way make the Bishop wrong.
As for your post about responding with charity…you have a point.
L
Lepanto
Guest
Again, you are assuming that the aforementioned “brother” is a bona fide religious.It is always better to err on the side of charity and respect. Let me give you one hypothetical idea. When we speak to someone on these forums who presents as a consecrated religioius or ordained cleric and we assume a tone that is disrespectful. hostile toward the person, or dismissive toward the person’s state in life, whether we can confirm it or not, we are letting the world know that we have minimal regard for the consecrated person or the ordained person. This may not be the case at all, but that’s the way that we come across. Is that how we want to come across?
We communicate that we feel entitled to be hostie to the ordained cleric or the consecrated religious. We really send a message about our attitude toward those who are ordained or consecrated by vows. The medium becomes a message of its own.
I am reminded of the begger that Francis met on the road. Francis first turned away in disgust. Then thought better and returned. He kissed the begger on the lips and gave him alms. When he turned around he realized that it was no ordinary begger, but Christ himself.
I’m also remainded of St Benedict who bound his monks to offer hospitality to all who came to the abbey, becaue it was Christ at the door. Whether it was truly Christ or a thief, did not matter to Benedict. The point is that as long as there was a chance that this was Christ, the monks could not risk denying him, because he was not clearly visible.
The same happens when you meet a Brother, Sister, Deacon or Priest on the forums. Like Francis and Benedict, we cannot risk and bypass the opportunity to show others our respect for the consecrated person or the ordained person.
That is why Francis demanded of his brothers and sisters in all three orders that we venerate religious and clerics, regardless of the state of their soul or even their heresy. They continued to be consecrated religious or ordained men. Some were both.
This is certainly one way that the laity can help promote vocations to the religious life and to the ordained ministry, by showing the younger generation how special these men and women are to our faith tradition.
I hope this helps.
Fraternally,
JR
D
Darryl1958
Guest
There was a time when Arians were in the majority in the Catholic Church. some may argue that that is still the case in the East where the fruits of Arianism reached their logical conclusion under the teachings of Mohammed.
I can understand why many people would want a modern version of Christianity which gives woman that front and center role. I also understand that that is not Cathlicism.
The number of Catholics filling the pews in the alternate church may indeed be large. Larger still are the number of Catholics filling the golf course and the clubs scene and the myriad of other activities that are happening on Sundays.
We can all relate. I am sure that there are few Catholics indeed whose faith does not fail them when they more strongly believe in the comforts of remaining in the sin that remains most prominent in their lives.
But the fact remains. However natural, good, logical or rational something may appear, if it is against Catholic teaching it is sin.
And the fruits of sin are death.
Eventually, we can all relate to that too.
I can understand why many people would want a modern version of Christianity which gives woman that front and center role. I also understand that that is not Cathlicism.
The number of Catholics filling the pews in the alternate church may indeed be large. Larger still are the number of Catholics filling the golf course and the clubs scene and the myriad of other activities that are happening on Sundays.
We can all relate. I am sure that there are few Catholics indeed whose faith does not fail them when they more strongly believe in the comforts of remaining in the sin that remains most prominent in their lives.
But the fact remains. However natural, good, logical or rational something may appear, if it is against Catholic teaching it is sin.
And the fruits of sin are death.
Eventually, we can all relate to that too.
C
Corki
Guest
If you have a question, you should PM a moderator. CAF posters who hold themselves out to be clergy or religious go through some extra “vetting” if I recall to prevent imposters.
P
pnewton
Guest
Consider this JR,
You are respected here, not because of any title or affiliation, but because of who you are and the things you say. I would be the first to admit we often need a reminder to treat each other with respect. Each one deserves this respect whether they are religious or not. Likewise, if one is encouraging dissent and opposing Catholic teaching, then they should be admonished and the true Catholic faith clarified. If one is attempting to assert credentials in this nefarious endeavor, then all the more reason to bring out true Catholic faith.
For those who ever question anyones credentials, the moderators here will check into it if one brings doubts to their attention. Those that do use titles are to gain credibility must be willing to verify them to the CAF, as per the rules.
edit - Contact CAF before you quesiton their credetials. It will help keep you from looking foolish. (learn from my mistake)
You are respected here, not because of any title or affiliation, but because of who you are and the things you say. I would be the first to admit we often need a reminder to treat each other with respect. Each one deserves this respect whether they are religious or not. Likewise, if one is encouraging dissent and opposing Catholic teaching, then they should be admonished and the true Catholic faith clarified. If one is attempting to assert credentials in this nefarious endeavor, then all the more reason to bring out true Catholic faith.
For those who ever question anyones credentials, the moderators here will check into it if one brings doubts to their attention. Those that do use titles are to gain credibility must be willing to verify them to the CAF, as per the rules.
edit - Contact CAF before you quesiton their credetials. It will help keep you from looking foolish. (learn from my mistake)
J
JReducation
Guest
Actually, I was trying to piggy-back on what you were saying. Sorry about the confusion.
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
What I’m trying to say is that we should always communicate our respect for the consecrated and/or ordained person.
Remember the old saying, “innocent until proven guilty”. The issue here is not that Br. Mark is or is not a Benedictine Monk, the issue is how we respond to someone who bears the title Father, Brother, Deacon, Sister.
Since the debate is not about their status, but about the issues surrounding Bishop Morlino, then our response should focus on those issues and should be presented in the most charitable language and respectful tone, without compromising our respect for those who MAY be religious or clerics.
We don’t need credentials to discuss this topic. We need attention to details and a respectful manner of communicating. This does apply to you alone, but to me and to everyone.
I for one hope that I have never responded to you or anyone on the threads with hostility or uncharitably, regardless of whether you are religious, clergy, secular order, or lay man in the pews.
As far as Bishop Morlino, I have said what I believe concerning his diocese. I hope that my opinions did not disrespect him either.
Fraternally,
JR
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
JReducation,
Thank you for your brave and respectful replies.
Thank you for your brave and respectful replies.
J
JReducation
Guest
Thank you for that. I hope that my replies are always respectful. I knnow that sometimes I roll my eyes at some things that I read on CAF and get annoyed. I hope that does not come through to others.
I’m even sorry for rolling my eyes and getting annoyed. I have to be more patient.
Fraternally,
JR
M
maggiemay2u
Guest
Thanks for saying what I was thinking…
I was reminded of the Notre Dame nuns in the 80’s who were told to resign, renounce, or be tossed as a result of their anti-Church rhetoric. They caused scandal to the Church, just as surely as the malcontents today who want to change the fundamentals of the faith. I see many extreme leftists in pastoral/religious roles as modern day reincarnations of those who murdered Thomas More in the name of secular changes to their surroundings. I pray for them, but see them as little other than wolves in sheep’s clothing.
J
JReducation
Guest
Even a wolf can be converted through charity, respect and clarity. I am reminded of the Wolf at Gubbio whom our holy father Francis tamed and persuaded not to attack the farmers and their sheep.
St. Augustine said “If your enemy were dead, it would cetainly be that you have lost an enemy; but you will have never found a friend. If you do not love your enemies, then do not pray.”
Fraternally,
JR
M
maggiemay2u
Guest
Ezekiel 33:7-9Even a wolf can be converted through charity, respect and clarity. I am reminded of the Wolf at Gubbio whom our holy father Francis tamed and persuaded not to attack the farmers and their sheep.
St. Augustine said “If your enemy were dead, it would cetainly be that you have lost an enemy; but you will have never found a friend. If you do not love your enemies, then do not pray.”
Fraternally,
JR
"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them
warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out
to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his
blood. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his
sin, but you will have saved yourself”.
Telling folks when what they’re doing is contrary to the will of God, is love…and trust me, many in my have loved me in this way, and I thank them for it…
B
BSHoop96
Guest
no worries.Actually, I was trying to piggy-back on what you were saying. Sorry about the confusion.
JR
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