Bishop: Pastors Must Deny Funerals to Catholics in Same-Gender Marriages

[JimG]

Scandal can occur in two ways: by the act itself which may lead others to copy it, and by the reaction to it, which can have the same effect. What is the message sent when those who flout the church’s doctrines are treated just the same as those who adhere to them? Beyond that, what does it say to those who publicly transgress her decrees? Is it to their benefit to imply that their souls are not really at risk because of their actions? We’re acting as if they’re being denied a piece of cake at a birthday party when what is truly at stake is a good bit more serious.

It is not our job to determine who goes where, but it is our job to help as many as possible end up with the sheep rather than the goats, and we surely don’t do that by behaving as if following church teaching is irrelevant or unimportant.

At that point they are beyond our influence; we can influence only the living, and we do that best by acting as if what the church teaches is true, and that it matters.
Ender

It’s been a long time since I’ve heard a homily on the four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.

The problem with total laxity is indeed scandal. The message then given by the Church is: it doesn’t matter how you lived, what you’ve done, whether you’ve repented, or whether you rejected God. You need have no fear of death or judgment or of hell. That scandal doesn’t affect the deceased. It does affect the living, who may be led into the continuing sin of presumption, which is dangerous to one’s soul.

I am entirely in favor of compassion, but not in favor of compassion which can lead one into hell. That would be no compassion at all.

 

[Sy_Noe]

It’s been a long time since I’ve heard a homily on the four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.

The problem with total laxity is indeed scandal. The message then given by the Church is: it doesn’t matter how you lived, what you’ve done, whether you’ve repented, or whether you rejected God. You need have no fear of death or judgment or of hell. That scandal doesn’t affect the deceased. It does affect the living, who may be led into the continuing sin of presumption, which is dangerous to one’s soul.

I am entirely in favor of compassion, but not in favor of compassion which can lead one into hell. That would be no compassion at all.

Maybe just teach to the living then that because one has a Catholic funeral, it does not guarantee eternal salvation at that point if their soul was judged by God to be dammed before then.

 

[JimG]

Maybe just teach to the living then that because one has a Catholic funeral, it does not guarantee eternal salvation at that point if their soul was judged by God to be dammed before then.

Yes, that’s part of it anyway. A Catholic funeral is never meant to be a canonization but a gathering to pray for the deceased. (And prayers are not time-bound; they are applied by God when and where needed. So I think funeral prayers can be applied, for example at the instant of death or before.)

Actually I worry more about presumption of salvation for myself, my friends, and relatives more than those who attend funerals. During the past 30 or 40 years we have been led to effectively not worry about sins which might have worried us in the past and sent us straight to the confessional, but now there’s more of a ‘don’t worry, God loves you’ attitude. Perhaps that’s why Fr. Z often in his blog simply repeats the exhortation “go to confession.” I think maybe it should be repeated in every homily.

 

[EIF5A]

(And prayers are not time-bound; they are applied by God when and where needed. So I think funeral prayers can be applied, for example at the instant of death or before.)

Interesting…so prayer can be applied “retroactively”?

 

[JimG]

Interesting…so prayer can be applied “retroactively”?

Yes, I think so, and I don’t think it’s against Catholic teaching, but I’m not sure if it is formal teaching either.

Often after a funeral, a number of people have Masses and prayers offered for the deceased, which can extend over weeks or months. I don’t think those Masses or prayers are wasted. If the deceased can be helped, they might be applied while he is in purgatory or even at the instant of death or before, if that is what will do most good. And if the person is already in heaven, those prayers will be applied to someone else who needs them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

St. Padre Pio also taught that prayer could be retroactively applied by God. He would for example pray for the good death of relatives who had died well before he was born.

 

[pnewton]

I wish and pray I would live to see the day when the Church resolves this issue in a loving way.

I think we are making strides with Pope Francis to a more pastoral understanding. There will always be those who will see homosexuality as the sin above all others, but that is human nature. It is easier to denounce sin to which we have no inclination or temptation, while having greater understanding for the sin which is our own Achilles’ heel. Likewise, there are those who will not be satisfied until the Church accepts homosexuality as natural and homosexual acts as acceptable (that is, not a sin). These will forever be disappointed.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think we are making strides with Pope Francis to a more pastoral understanding. There will always be those who will see homosexuality as the sin above all others, but that is human nature. It is easier to denounce sin to which we have no inclination or temptation, while having greater understanding for the sin which is our own Achilles’ heel. Likewise, there are those who will not be satisfied until the Church accepts homosexuality as natural and homosexual acts as acceptable (that is, not a sin). These will forever be disappointed.

I will pray and leave it in the capable hands of Pope Francis while continuing to be kind to those I meet. I do not want to speculate on what the Church might do in future.
One thing I was taught growing up is that the Church is worldwide, so any change needs to work for a huge variety of countries and cultures, not just certain ones who may be more open to a change. I’m sure the Pope is better able to take all this into account when guiding the Church.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I really don’t see the problem. If you’re not leaving in accordance with Church teaching then you really don’t need to have a Church funeral

 

[Brendan]

Here is a bit on the subject from Dr Peters

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/23/bp-paprockis-norms-on-same-sex-marriage/

Paprocki’s decree is not aimed at a category of persons (homosexuals, lesbians, LGBT, etc., words that do not even appear in his document) but rather, it is concerned with an act, a public act, an act that creates a civilly-recognized status, namely, the act of entering into a ‘same-sex marriage’. That public act most certainly has public consequences, some civil and some*canonical.

 

[pnewton]

I really don’t see the problem. If you’re not leaving in accordance with Church teaching then you really don’t need to have a Church funeral

I know of no one that lives in accordance with Church teaching in all things. Such a one would be perfect and sinless. Do you gossip? Do you help the poor, sick, the stranger? Is your language always pure? Do you love others as much as yourself?

We must not focus on the sin one does when understanding this decree. It is not about the sin one commits, but about some public act that goes beyond just the sin, some act that would cause a grave scandal.

 

[Ender]

The message I would see is that Catholics would be saying we are not going to judge the state of one’s spirituality at the moment they die and instead show some act of mercy and love and provide comfort for those left behind to mourn and leave the judgment part as to who was dammed or not at that point to God.

I think you misunderstand the nature of mercy.*In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. *(JPII)

No one is saying not to teach to the living what the Catholic Church believes to be true. What is being discussed is at the point of death. And yes sure I suppose it could be possible a funeral might be provided for someone who was dammed and prayers would not be helpful at that point. But who on earth knows. And at the same time a soul for which the prayers of the faithful might be of benefit would be missing out when Catholic funeral rites are denied. Between the two, I’d side with providing a funeral for reasons already discussed. ** But I know the Catholic Church is going to do what it is going to do**.

You can take heart in that fewer and fewer bishops appear prepared to act as the church directs them to.

Ender

 

[exnihilo]

St. Padre Pio also taught that prayer could be retroactively applied by God. He would for example pray for the good death of relatives who had died well before he was born.

I have a relative who was very anti-God and who committed suicide. I always pray especially for him.

I think we are making strides with Pope Francis to a more pastoral understanding. There will always be those who will see homosexuality as the sin above all others, but that is human nature. It is easier to denounce sin to which we have no inclination or temptation, while having greater understanding for the sin which is our own Achilles’ heel. Likewise, there are those who will not be satisfied until the Church accepts homosexuality as natural and homosexual acts as acceptable (that is, not a sin). These will forever be disappointed.

I don’t think people see homosexuality above all others. I doubt anyone sees it as worse than murder. But some sins are worse than others and homosexual acts have always been considered really, really bad. The modern attitude towards sin seems to me to rank them according to how they ‘hurt’ others and whether they are consensual. But that system has no justification.

I do agree we tend to be more forgiving of sins that come from our own weaknesses. It seems to me we all tend to expect God to be understanding of our own personal sin.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I think you misunderstand the nature of mercy.*In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. *(JPII)
You can take heart in that fewer and fewer bishops appear prepared to act as the church directs them to.

Ender

I think you misunderstood and partly because of the word used. Because whether God’s mercy and forgiveness has already been bestowed upon the soul by the time we are talking about and whether the soul was dammed or saved into eternal life or in the Catholic belief, in a state of purgatory, is something we don’t know. Or at least I know it is above my paygrade. And you seem remained focused on the living and their sins. I am talking about compassion on earth for the dead and those left behind to mourn. And God, not man, making judgment at that point. But I see as another poster said, that this back and forth gets us nowhere.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I really don’t see the problem. If you’re not leaving in accordance with Church teaching then you really don’t need to have a Church funeral

The argument is that very few to none of us are living strictly “in accordance with Church teaching”. Very few perfect people out there. As others have pointed out, there are also a lot of rich people, politicians, celebrities etc. who somehow manage to get Church funerals despite having behaved very questionably in the public eye during their life.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I think we are making strides with Pope Francis to a more pastoral understanding. There will always be those who will see homosexuality as the sin above all others, but that is human nature. It is easier to denounce sin to which we have no inclination or temptation, while having greater understanding for the sin which is our own Achilles’ heel. Likewise, there are those who will not be satisfied until the Church accepts homosexuality as natural and homosexual acts as acceptable (that is, not a sin). These will forever be disappointed.

It’s interesting that you think that. Because while I think Pope Francis has definitely tried to bring a compassionate pastoral focus and has spoken about many things and also many things besides abortion and homosexuality for the faithful to focus on, I am just not sure I have seen it reach far enough down yet. Granted my Catholic experience has been limited for a few years and it may depend though on the particular diocese or parish or forum.

 

[EIF5A]

It’s interesting that you think that. Because while I think Pope Francis has definitely tried to bring a compassionate pastoral focus and has spoken about many things and also many things besides abortion and homosexuality for the faithful to focus on, I am just not sure I have seen it reach far enough down yet. Granted my Catholic experience has been limited for a few years and it may depend though on the particular diocese or parish or forum.

What would Pope Francis need to do to “reach far enough down”?

 

[pnewton]

What would Pope Francis need to do to “reach far enough down”?

I think what was meant was seeing what the Pope is teaching reach the parish level, and even down to individual Catholics, not that he has not lowered the theological bar.

Is that right?

 

[Sy_Noe]

What would Pope Francis need to do to “reach far enough down”?

From my lens, there is nothing more Pope Francis can do. I think he has been a wonderful Pope and I have nothing bad to say about him. I might note btw that I am not one to have much hope that the Catholic Church will change in any significant way so as much as I love Pope Francis, I am not someone waiting for the things Pnewton said some are waiting for and who will forever be disappointed.

I think what was meant was seeing what the Pope is teaching reach the parish level, and even down to individual Catholics, not that he has not lowered the theological bar.

Is that right?

Yes. And Francis has been the Vicar of Christ on earth according to Catholic teaching for over 4 years now. But again, granted my Catholic experience has been limited in the more recent years mostly nowadays to places such as CAF and from what I observe away from being within an actual parish setting.

 

[EIF5A]

From my lens, there is nothing more Pope Francis can do. I think he has been a wonderful Pope and I have nothing bad to say about him. I might note btw that I am not one to have much hope that the Catholic Church will change in any significant way so as much as I love Pope Francis, I am not someone waiting for the things Pnewton said some are waiting for and who will forever be disappointed.

Yes. And Francis has been the Vicar of Christ on earth according to Catholic teaching for over 4 years now. But again, granted my Catholic experience has been limited in the more recent years mostly nowadays to places such as CAF and from what I observe away from being within an actual parish setting.

(bold added)

So…in your ideal world, the Church would allow gay marriage?