Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

[ekindermann]

frommi:

Are you suggesting that someone advocating for women’s ordination would lead you to violence? Isn’t that a bit much.

oh frommi, once again, where should I begin with you…I think you just secretly enjoy these little verbal scuffles - it’s like a sport with you.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_1_30v.gif

do you really not recognize “tongue in cheek” when you hear it? Where’s your indignance and concern that she is stepping way out of line, obviously with full knowledge and intent?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_112.gif

 

[ekindermann]

frommi:

That I worry that too often we hear the comments of one or two members of a parish and taken out of context they make things sound much worse than they are.

The points of view of many many people are misrepresented this way.

then again, “de-nial” ain’t just a river in Egypt!

 

[frommi]

ekindermann:

oh frommi, once again, where should I begin with you…I think you just secretly enjoy these little verbal scuffles - it’s like a sport with you.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_1_30v.gif

do you really not recognize “tongue in cheek” when you hear it? Where’s your indignance and concern that she is stepping way out of line, obviously with full knowledge and intent?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_112.gif

I guess I can be sporty…that’s true…and no, I didn’t think you were going to perpetrate violence on a nun who preaches.

I still have a hard time (even after a year of this thread being alive…which has to be some kind of internet record), understanding why some of this stuff gets under the skin of people to such a great extent.

I don’t deny anyone’s right to be concerned, nor do I think it’s silly to be upset by it, I just don’t understand it…that’s all…

 

[frommi]

MrS:

I wish we could have someone like him as the next Bishop in Lansing. There is already a wonderful vocations director in place, Fr Vincki, and with some stronger leadership… wow.

Pray that Bishop Carlson not tire of his work, and we know that he will often tire in his work.

Shot in the dark, but if I had to guess…Msgr. Raica will be your next bishop, whenever Bishop Mengeling’s retirement is accepted (I’ll always respect Bishop Mengeling’s tireless dedication to catholic schools)

 

[bknebel]

well, folks, i have to be away for the weekend. I’m leaving today for the FOCUS conference in Denver (Fellowship of Catholic University STudents.) I pray that this weekend will be fruitful in your parishes and in your hearts. I’ll be praying for you.

FromMi- The reason most of these issues bother others isn’t because they want some ho-dunk back woods attitude to religion, but that there are certain things that Jesus entrusted to the church (all-male priesthood, valid sacraments, etc) and the early church fathers also talked about how we need to give to the poor, etc but need to make our Mass and our things to do with Mass as Holy and Kingly as possible (excellent vestments, precious metals, etc).

People here are getting upset and things ‘get under the skin’ of them because they would like to see things done as the church has asked them to be done.

We pray for those in the Saginaw Diocese that are on Purgaty Cove on Lake Webegone, like Grotto. God will hear the cry of the poor. Blessed be the Lord!

See you all Monday.

 

[MrS]

go with God

 

[singerlady]

Have a safe trip, Basil.

 

[frommi]

bknebel:

FromMi- The reason most of these issues bother others isn’t because they want some ho-dunk back woods attitude to religion, but that there are certain things that Jesus entrusted to the church (all-male priesthood, valid sacraments, etc) and the early church fathers also talked about how we need to give to the poor, etc but need to make our Mass and our things to do with Mass as Holy and Kingly as possible (excellent vestments, precious metals, etc).

People here are getting upset and things ‘get under the skin’ of them because they would like to see things done as the church has asked them to be done.

But see, that’s where things get a little blurry to me…Jesus didn’t entrust things to the church as though he was retiring to some hut in heaven, he’s still here every hour of every day in my mind. And yes, because of that, I believe (though I am not advocating for), we could see changes in different aspects of the church and her sacramental life, and to be so rigid about these things can be as damaging as offering a false witness as to what the ‘spirit of vatican II is calling us to’.

I think vestments should be nice, and I think some of our finest vessels should be used…but I think one could also make the case that fine Waterford crystal is something worthy of a king (just a thought).

Again, just my thoughts…gold or silver doesnt really get to me as much as lousy music and insipid or patronizing preaching.

 

[ekindermann]

I guess I can be sporty…that’s true…and no, I didn’t think you were going to perpetrate violence on a nun who preaches.

I don’t deny anyone’s right to be concerned, nor do I think it’s silly to be upset by it, I just don’t understand it…that’s all…

Thanks for “validating my feelings” (love that psychobabble phrase!) I knew that you knew that I wouldn’t really commit some horrible act of violence against her.
I do like to be, shall we say, “humorously colorful” in my descriptions. I do not mean to offend, only try to get across the degree of consternation that is caused by this.
Also, you need to remember, I have discussed these issues with her directly, I know what she acts like when spoken to about these things. You will have to accept it when I tell you “obstinate, prideful, defensiveness” doesn’t begin to describe the reaction that we get from “sister” and the priest in the neighboring city (15 minutes away) where we tried to start going instead.
It is very frustrating, frommi, to have to leave a place, be forced out really, by this. I have kids to raise. If it was just me, maybe I’d stay and try to be an influence, but I cannot have my kids scandalized and taught wrongly by these people.
So a certain amount of resentment builds up and then pow- you want to choke something (I didn’t say someone…I said something. )

frommi:

I still have a hard time (even after a year of this thread being alive…which has to be some kind of internet record), understanding why some of this stuff gets under the skin of people to such a great extent.

bknebel:

FromMi- People here are getting upset and things ‘get under the skin’ of them because they would like to see things done as the church has asked them to be done.

Again, just my thoughts…gold or silver doesnt really get to me as much as lousy music and insipid or patronizing preaching.

Well and I think there is a reason for that getting to you more…gold and silver are objects they can neither be “better” or “worse” than what they are - beautiful, expensive, hard to get, (waterford crystal by the way isn’t expesive or hard to get) - “precious” but ALSO…bad music and poor preaching CAN be made better, and when people continue to do something poorly, even when they COULD do better - IF they chose to, well there’s the rub.
For instance, in our case here: Let’s say Fr. R (the retired priest who “celebrates” the Mass here) has trouble, due to age(??) or why, I’m not really sure, but that’s what’s been the supposed reason that he can’t give the homilies-“he’s retired and it would be too hard for him” Let’s say that is true (which I do not accept-but anyway) WHY can’t “sister” help him (proof read, suggest ideas, etc) to him to “help” him with the difficulty? Wouldn’t that be the real charity? Help the priest perform his God given responsibilty - not take it over. Especially when you know you aren’t supposed to.

 

[PiusXIII]

ekindermann:

It is very frustrating, frommi, to have to leave a place, be forced out really, by this. I have kids to raise. If it was just me, maybe I’d stay and try to be an influence, but I cannot have my kids scandalized and taught wrongly by these people.

Very true. I can relate to it. It’s disheartening to hear fellow Catholics (Catholics who attend mass faithfully every week mind you) actually saying things like “When Jesus told Peter he was the rock upon which he built his church he was actually telling all of us we were the rock–we all have authority in the church.” That’s what this diocese has become. It’s sad.

 

[TheRaiders]

I have heard that theory. It is pretty funny. They forget that Jesus actualy said these things in real time and on this earth to a specific person. It is not some symbolic fairy tale for all of mankind to be rocks. It is an actual historical event.
If you had been present at that time, would you mistake it for anything other than what he said? It is only after thousands of years that people have tried to add their own meaning to it.
Jesus would have adressed everyone, or made it more clear if he meant that everyone was the rock. He was talking to Peter, who’s name means rock! It doesn’t get much more obvious than that, unless you allow 2000 years and a desire to deny the Church’s teachings to fog your interpretations. Same with the Eucharist.

 

[ekindermann]

TheRaiders:

for all of mankind to be rocks.

It doesn’t get much more obvious than that, unless you allow 2000 years and a desire to deny the Church’s teachings to fog your interpretations. Same with the Eucharist.

Rocks in the head perhaps!

I just heard, can’t remember where, about when John & Peter ran to the tomb on Easter, John arrived first, which I knew from scripture of course, but that the reason he didn’t go in first, was because he knew Peter should (due to who he was)! I had never heard that but had always wondered what the significance of him not going in first was.

 

[singerlady]

TheRaiders:

I have heard that theory. It is pretty funny. They forget that Jesus actualy said these things in real time and on this earth to a specific person. It is not some symbolic fairy tale for all of mankind to be rocks. It is an actual historical event.
If you had been present at that time, would you mistake it for anything other than what he said? It is only after thousands of years that people have tried to add their own meaning to it.
Jesus would have adressed everyone, or made it more clear if he meant that everyone was the rock. He was talking to Peter, who’s name means rock! It doesn’t get much more obvious than that, unless you allow 2000 years and a desire to deny the Church’s teachings to fog your interpretations. Same with the Eucharist.

That might explain why the libs are promoting the theory that most of the text attributed to Jesus was not actually said by Jesus.

 

[frommi]

PiusXIII:

Very true. I can relate to it. It’s disheartening to hear fellow Catholics (Catholics who attend mass faithfully every week mind you) actually saying things like “When Jesus told Peter he was the rock upon which he built his church he was actually telling all of us we were the rock–we all have authority in the church.” That’s what this diocese has become. It’s sad.

Just a thought…

Yes, it was in the context of the weakness of the earthly church and her ministers that Jesus entrusted the pastoral office to Peter.

But, one can’t find in the scripture where it says “You are Peter and you will build a Roman Curia and an Apostolic Palace, etc.”

The modern day view of this statement too often seems to be that Jesus is retired and no longer working through the entire people of God (something that Vatican II clearly refutes).

A rock indeed, but not the be all end all of ministry in the church.

I often wonder what would happen if we had a pope who was less known to the masses and said something like “I’ll leave it to the bishops to decide what materials to use for chalices, and I’ll leave it to bishops to decide who can have preaching faculty”. There is wailing and gnashing of teeth among many of Cardinal Ratzingers bandwagon members because he has not brought everyone “back in line” as Pope Benedict (I particulary enjoyed one writer who suggested he resurrect the papal tiara, put it on his desk, and point to it when someone dares disagree with him).

 

[msproule]

frommi:

Yes, it was in the context of the weakness of the earthly church and her ministers that Jesus entrusted the pastoral office to Peter.

Does the context really matter in this instance? I am just asking…

But, one can’t find in the scripture where it says “You are Peter and you will build a Roman Curia and an Apostolic Palace, etc.”

Nor can one find any suggestion that Peter’s Successor erect the Diocese of Saginaw in 1938. What is your point?

The modern day view of this statement too often seems to be that Jesus is retired and no longer working through the entire people of God…

From where do you get your information, frommi? I know we have already debated this subject (fact vs. opinion) into the ground, so I guess my question here is a rhetorical one. Never mind.

I often wonder what would happen if we had a pope who was less known to the masses and said something like “I’ll leave it to the bishops to decide what materials to use for chalices, and I’ll leave it to bishops to decide who can have preaching faculty”.

It is an interesting exercise to ponder such a circumstance. However, the restrictions on material selection for sacred vessels are already quite lenient. Individual Bishop’s can choose wood, for crying out loud! Returning to my point, I fail to see what benefit would be gained by a complete “decentralization”, if that is what you meant (I understand you are not advocating that, but merely wondering). Such an action, in *today’s context, would be chaotic at best and destructive at worst. How many bishoprics exist today (over 3,000?) compared to when the Church was still in Its infancy?

There is wailing and gnashing of teeth among many of Cardinal Ratzingers bandwagon members because he has not brought everyone “back in line” as Pope Benedict (I particulary enjoyed one writer who suggested he resurrect the papal tiara, put it on his desk, and point to it when someone dares disagree with him).

Instead of the tiara, we get the camauro!

• If frommi’s thought ever becomes reality, maybe Jimmy Akin can name his subsequent book “Mass Chaos”! Just a thought…

 

[frommi]

msproule:

It is an interesting exercise to ponder such a circumstance. However, the restrictions on material selection for sacred vessels are already quite lenient. Individual Bishop’s can choose wood, for crying out loud! Returning to my point, I fail to see what benefit would be gained by a complete “decentralization”, if that is what you meant (I understand you are not advocating that, but merely wondering). Such an action, in *today’s context, would be chaotic at best and destructive at worst. How many bishoprics exist today (over 3,000?) compared to when the Church was still in Its infancy?

A complete decentralization would not be a good thing, we need the Pope for the sake of unity, and also because of the uniqueness of the petrine office.

What we do not need is groups of people like the folks in Milwaukee who were upset about the remodeling of the cathedral, so they skipped over any competent local ecclesiastical authorities and went straight to Rome.

The drift towards a corporate mentality in our universal church is more destructive than if Bishops (chosen by the pontiff with local (name removed by moderator)ut) were to have the authority to teach and govern their dioceses based on the local needs and experiences of the people.

 

[msproule]

frommi:

What we do not need is groups of people like the folks in Milwaukee who were upset about the remodeling of the cathedral, so they skipped over any competent local ecclesiastical authorities and went straight to Rome.

I am unfamiliar with this story. Can you send me a link to it? What was the outcome? Thanks!

 

[frommi]

msproule:

I am unfamiliar with this story. Can you send me a link to it? What was the outcome? Thanks!

I don’t know that I have a link to it…the gist of it was that Abp. Weakland, prior to turning 75 and retiring sought to renovate the cathedral. A group of people appealed the plans for his remodeling all the way to the CDW.

There was a outright canonical war about this. The CDW said that the plans for the remodeling were flawed and that they should be altered. The Abp asserted his canonical rights to make the changes.

In the end the cathedral was remodeled, and that was the end of it.

My point in bringing up the story was that it’s clear that fringe groups often have a false picture of the authority of the curia.

 

[FriendlySkeptic]

Hi,

I live in a different Michigan diocese, but my travels take me through Saginaw frequently. I’ve never attended Mass in Saginaw, so I’m a neutral outsider.

I have read about lots of abuses here and in the other Saginaw threads. I am interested in attending a Mass to observe for myself.

Please provide the name and city of the parish that you think exemplifies the worst within the diocese of Saginaw. After attending, I will report my observations here.

Thanks.

 

[msproule]

frommi:

I don’t know that I have a link to it…

I found some. Thanks!