Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

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Dear Orion - I have to explain that I am not attacking Vatican II - and support ALL that our Church and Holy Fathers have done - and YES please pray and assist all faithful to the Magisterium. Those that fling justification for all their renovations/modifications of our churches, universal language and casualness in the “Spirit of Vatican II” are rightfully owed criticism when they stubbornly insist on having it “their way”. When abuses of the liturgy occur because of expressing individual preferences - we have the problems we have now.

What is your thought about a keyboard being played all through the Consecration? Do you think it is correct? Do you think that the choir should lead the people in singing the Doxology in the Mass?

Do you think that the schedule of times for the Mass should be
presented as “Liturgy of the Word with Communion”?

Should those of us who have resisted wrongful changes for many years and have suffered from not having the richness of our Faith available to us just pretend all is well?
 
First, I guess I just am hypersensitive to criticism where it appears to imply that Vatican II is the problem as opposed to the interpretations of Vatican II. A component of being a Catholic is being able to affirm our belief daily that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church. I am concerned when people appear to question the wisdom of something as significant as Vatican II.

Second, because each Bishop is rightfully the Prefect of each diocese, it was inevitable that some dioceses would misintepret Vatican II until it all got sorted out. The history of the Church is filled with examples of unintentional misinterpretations that grew to unintended heresies, requiring the Vatican/Magisterium to issue clarification decrees. We are in this process now. Historically, the past abuses took 100’s of years to develop into heresies/schisms because of the lack of instantaneous communication/travel. These misinterpretations will have developed and been resolved in decades. And if early indications are representative, it appears that these misinterpretations will be resolved with minimal controversay.

Third, while I don’t mean to discount the impact of the misinterpretations in Saginaw diocese on you, your family, and your parishes, we need to keep it in perspective. Overall, the challenges you have faced is not representative of what has happened in the United States and the U.S. is only a minor component of the world-wide Church.

Fourth, while I concede that the liturgical flexibility afforded local dioceses/parishes in Vatican II went to far in some cases, we have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. While I now consider myself pretty “traditional” liturgically, I know I wasn’t always so “traditional”. When I was younger, I believe the more contemporary Masses I attended in my college and immediate post-college years contributed to my remaining Catholic. I also recognize, as Jesus did with the woman at the well where you need to talk to people at a level that they can grasp depending on where they are in their faith journey at the time, that the Church must have some flexibility today. At my very traditional parish here in SD, we have three Masses on Sunday. The 8:00 is very traditional with many chants. The 9:30 is pretty traditional but has contemporary music. The 11:00 is geared to teens and young families. While my family mostly attends 9:30, when our kids are not with us, my wife and I usually go to the 8:00, and when my kids go w/o us they most like the 11:00 Mass. While I don’t particularly care for the liturgy at our college Newman Centers, I am impressed with the faithfulness of the students who are atending Mass while at college. Even though they are showing up in shorts, t-shirts and flip flops and appear to have serious hangovers to my chagrin, they are attending Mass and are recieving the Eucharist with a great deal of reverence. I fear that, if in our effort to correct the liturgical abuses you and so many have pointed out, we could go overboard and push some in their formative years away from the Church.

Fifth, regarding your question regarding my feelings on the abuses you sight (a keyboard being played all through the Consecration or the choir singing the Doxology (here I assume you mean the Doxology at the end of the Eucharistic prayer and not the one at the end of the Lord’s Prayer) in the Mass)? They appear to me to be misinterpretations of the liturgical protocol and, if so, I’m sure that Bishop Carlson will address it. If not abuses, I don’t care for them and would urge my Priest to adopt a more traditional approach.

Sixth, I agree with you that presenting Mass schedules as “Liturgy of the Word with Communion” as an ill-advised effort to appear “ecumenical” but you have to recall that 50 years ago there was no such Mass schedules on the front of our churches. Instead, they just rang the bells 15-30 minutes prior to the starting of Mass and subject to the schedule of the Priest. In short, I think it is silly but not anything to get upset over.

(Wow, this is too long to submit. I have to make this two replies. Sorry for being to wordy.)
 
(this is a continuation of the previous message)

Finally, I want to express my appreciation for your fidelity to the liturgy during this period of “trial and error” and remaining loyal to the Church. But I hope that your quote (“Should those of us who have resisted wrongful changes for many years and have suffered from not having the richness of our Faith available to us just pretend all is well?”) is just frustration and not a true indication of what is in your heart. As in all things where God makes us bear trials, we need to offer our sufferings up to God as penance for our sins. To cast aspersions or judgment on our fellow Catholics serves Satan’s purposes and not God’s. My pastor who is very wise and filled with the Spirit tells me all the time that rather than reacting to “wrongs” with anger or disillusionment or recrimination, we need to react with a tenderness of heart. Over the next few years, Bishop Carlson will be enacting many changes that your fellow Catholics will oppose (and many will oppose it sincerely and with good intentions) and resist. Whether they react to these changes properly or improperly will greatly depend on how those who “are getting their way” react to them. Bishop Carlson will be steadfast and firm regarding liturgical abuses but it will pain him greatly if he loses even one member of his new flock (remember how Jesus left the entire flock to find one lost sheep) during the transition. He needs you to help him keep these Catholics in the fold.

This process is going to be very delicate and difficult especially in light of the fact that much of the opposition and resistance will come from the clergy and religious. How you and people who feel like you participate and contribute during this transition will greatly affect how quickly and painlessly these changes are enacted. In my mind, I think much of the opposition to Bishop Carlson will be from a lack of understanding and not hardness of heart. A role you and others is to be involved in Adult Education efforts so that people grasp why liturgical changes are good for the Faith of the Church.
 
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_205.gif Dear Orion - thanks for responding to my complaint and my appreciation for the hope that Bishop Carlson’s shepherding will effect good change ASAP! I know I am frustrated but more than that, I YEARN AND DESIRE for “my” Catholic Church - the one I know and love - to be able to attend Holy Mass, receive Confession and Communion, attend Eucharisitic Adoration, teach the children and those seeking our Faith all its richness. You suggest that the priests and religious of the diocese will not be open to redirection. I wouldn’t want anyone to turn away from our Faith but I do not want to spoon feed them more dribble because of a fear they won’t like it and will go away!
I will continue to drive great distance to attend the Mass, absorb as much of EWTN as possible, pray the rosary, and basically keep on. There will be no return to a should-be Catholic Church that is run by a woman who loves being on the altar during the Mass, blesses the Offertory, gives the homily, blesses the children, etc. etc. But, guess what! - they don’t miss me which figures! So, thats the state of affairs.
 
Bishop Carlson and a groups of his seminarians recorded the rosary last Friday. The CDs will be distributed throughout the Saginaw Diocese (20,000 copies) and the rosary will be broadcast twice daily for one year… all for vocations.

The good Bishop has 15 seminarians and candidates now… up from zero when he was elevated in February. He knows the answer to all the weak liturgy and weaker priests… replace them with Godly men!!!
 
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MrS:
The good Bishop has 15 seminarians and candidates now… up from zero when he was elevated in February. He knows the answer to all the weak liturgy and weaker priests… replace them with Godly men!!!
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Feed them and they will come… :gopray2:
 
MrS - please get your facts straight - Saginaw had 4 seminarians when Bishop Carlson came - two are now on a leave of absence (there own choice) and two are continuing on. Many numbers have been thrown around about new seminarians, but we in the diocese have not seen them or know their names.

Your statement about our liturgy and our priests is judgement. There is now indication that the priests and religious will not work with Bishop Carlson, and that Bishop Carlson will not work with them.

Why does the Church of Saginaw concern you so much?
 
Dear Hestia, IMHO your last post was “in your face” rude. I am sure you do not want to appear that way so I will politely comment on your “judgement” that the clergy and religious will not work with Bishop Carlson. Sort of reminds me of kids arguing on the playground, “we won’t play with you!”. There are surely some in the Saginaw Diocese that are entrenched in their own pursuits. A lot of time and energy has been spent in being misled. It was attractive to the individuals in some manner and, in pursuing their misguided goals, they educated themselves right into selfish ignorance. Now its reality time. The truth will always win out as it shines it light on heresy and error. Some people can be heard yelling “Shut the light off!”. Well, ain’t gonna happen! And as for MrS having interest in the diocese - what is that to you? Are you one of the “kids” saying “we won’t play with you!?” Hope not.
The Marines have had a saying that I hope will be reflected in the Saginaw Diocese in support of our Faith and Bishop Carlson, and that is for the clergy to “Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way”! -
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As I re-read my post, I did notice a typo: it should read “there is no indication that the priests and religious…”
If what I wrote was “in your face rude” it wasn’t intended to be, but I must say it was not as rude and mean-spirited as many other things that have been said in this room about Bishop Ken and Saginaw.
 
My interest in the Diocese of Saginaw is really my interest in correcting the abuses rampant in the litergy - in Saginaw, in Lansing, and in Detroit. (I am in the Lansing Diocese)

Satan’s primary goal (other than taking whatever souls he can get) is to destroy the Eucharist. The means to that end: destroy the priesthood. No priests, no Eucharist. No Eucharist, No Church.

So my admiration for the Bishop of Saginaw, is his concerted effort to find, encourage, and support men to the priesthood. What ever the numbers are, there is no denying that GREAT strides have taken place just since February.

The Bishop’s request that every priest spend a daily hour in Adoration will bear fruit. Those who comply with his request will become better priests. Those who refuse to work with him will eventually be recognized for their weaknesses.

Additionally, my interests include how much of his holiness will be noticed in the adjoining dioceses. Right now, Lansing has a wonderful, sincere, and IMHO successful new director of seminarians. It was long overdue, waiting for someone of this caliber and zeal.

How many parishes do you see where there are NO seminarians. I find it unacceptable that any parish could have zero young men who, when looking at their own pastor’s example, don’t say “I want to be like you” That is the shortcoming of the pastor who most likely never sees or encourages a vocation from his flock, or who sadly does not inspire young men. Musicians and sports stars seem to inspire our young men… why not a priest???

Bishop Carlson has taken the bull by the horns… he is in charge of finding, encouraging candidates. Perhaps, sadly, he sees the condition of his priests, … and knows why they may not work with him.
 
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MrS:
Bishop Carlson has taken the bull by the horns… he is in charge of finding, encouraging candidates. Perhaps, sadly, he sees the condition of his priests, … and knows why they may not work with him.
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I don’t think that’s fair. I think most priests in the Saginaw diocese are happy to work with the new bishop.
 
I agree that the attitudes of many priests in the Saginaw Diocese may be difficult to adjust and pray Bishop Carlson doesn’t have to suffer in his efforts. I don’t think its fair or unfair, just sad and difficult. Stating the facts in sincere truth as held by the factfinder, open to challenge should not be considered unjust.

Many historical events (facts of happenings) regarding the Catholic Faith in the Saginaw Diocese have purposefully not been re-exposed in order to forgive, not be harsh or self-serving in judgements, and in personal efforts re-establish the Faith of the Catholic Church.

I am still at Purgatory Cove on Lake Wobegone, patiently waiting for the missionaries to come and take over our “should-be Catholic Church”. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_22_25.gif
 
What is the “Saginaw Prayer”? (aka “Saginaw Blessing”)

I’ve read several references to it, but could somebody please post it here in its entirety?

Also, on what occasions/when is it said, and by whom?
 
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lepanto:
What is the “Saginaw Prayer”? (aka “Saginaw Blessing”)

I’ve read several references to it, but could somebody please post it here in its entirety?

Also, on what occasions/when is it said, and by whom?
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The Saginaw blessing is based on the Aaronic blessing in the book of Numbers.

May the Lord bless and keep you,
May he let his face shine upon you
and be gracious to you and give you his peace.

In the Saginaw diocese there is a second verse:

May the Lord bless and keep you,
May SHE let HER face shine upon you
and be gracious to you and give you HER peace.
 
Just curious … has the diocese seen any changes or improvements under Bishop Carlson’s guidance? I’ve seen no changes at our local parish; still the same abuses as under Bishop Untener… has anyone noticed any improvements or returns to orthodoxy?
 
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MICATH:
Just curious … has the diocese seen any changes or improvements under Bishop Carlson’s guidance? I’ve seen no changes at our local parish; still the same abuses as under Bishop Untener… has anyone noticed any improvements or returns to orthodoxy?
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Our parish is still fairly heterodox. The bishop did say at our Main street meeting, that we wanted to go over the GIRM with the priests before making any changes. He is supposed to do that some time this fall.
 
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singerlady:
Our parish is still fairly heterodox. The bishop did say at our Main street meeting, that we wanted to go over the GIRM with the priests before making any changes. He is supposed to do that some time this fall.
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Everything is still abysmally the same here too. I was holding my breath for July to get here…waiting for changes, so now fall, huh? I hope I can keep my breath that long. 'Course what are the alternatives? Travel 2 hours. And not belong to your parish “community”. I have one to receieve sacraments this year, and we just found out we have another on the way, so a Baptism in May. Don’t know where these sacraments will take place, since we are displaced.
 
Hang in there. Virtue takes a long time to instill but vice travels rather rapidly.

I can assure you, barring a major change in Bishop Carlson I don’t know about, that he is working to bring things in line with Church teaching. We don’t know what obstacles he faces though. I suppose we should pray harder.
 
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FatherTodd:
Hang in there. Virtue takes a long time to instill but vice travels rather rapidly.

I can assure you, barring a major change in Bishop Carlson I don’t know about, that he is working to bring things in line with Church teaching. We don’t know what obstacles he faces though. I suppose we should pray harder.
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me…hanging, :(.
Today, the new priest nearby spoke in his homily how we (the parish there) really need to have a cross (I hope he meant crucifix) prominently hanging where we worship. I nearly stood up & cheered!

After Mass I heard him speaking to another parishioner about it and he said it may not really matter what the parishioners all decide, “In October the bishop may just say (pointing his finger) put in…” gesturing to mean that the bishop may just dictate exactly what type of cross, etc. each parish is to have. So I asked him why October and he said that every two years the priests all go up north somewhere to meet with the bishop, leaving behing a few retired priests for funerals, etc. So…I’m looking forward to October.

On a somewhat related note, we vacationed in the adjacent diocese (Gaylord) last weekend. While in a larger, very touristy city (which I shall remain nameless to protect the guilty) we attended Mass. The Mass began with the “Pastor, Sister —” greeting all of us and explaining to us that in the winter “when all you folks go home we are just a small parish of about 100 - 200 people” her point being they really needed to sell those raffle tickets at the door. Anyway, that wasn’t what was so irritating.

She proceeded to launch (and I use that term purposefully) into the most offensive, boorish, explanation about how “we do things in this diocese” First she explained that there is no resident priest there, but “we are serviced” by the priests from ___ city and ____ city." Is it just me or does the word “serviced” seem to do a great disservice to what our priests do for us as they lead us through Mass?
Next it was a series of questions: "How many of you do (fill in the blank) during this part of the mass?(Response… hand raising/or not, from the pews) “Oh that’s a shame”…or “are you sure you are Roman Catholic?!”

She covered that we should be standing during certain parts of the Eucharistic prayers (as the new GIRM supposedly directs), bow during the Creed at a certain time (yes, sister, few do at our parish, and they should but that is not a new GIRM directive, we should have been doing it all along) Orans position during the Our Father, on & on she went.

Now please, dear reader, imagine this before the mass, interspersed throughout with the phrase “When in Rome, do as the Romans.” Ugh It was all I could do to sit there. I wanted to say, “Didn’t they throw the Christians to the lions in Rome?”

So thanks for listening, I hope Bishop Carlson will rub off on Bishop Cooney, he and Bishop Untener were supposedly good friends. And while I was there as principal I was required to attend many educational inservices presented at the diocese. However all the teachers were brought in from the Saginaw Diocese.

So it does indeed spread doesn’t it?

Thanks for listening, God Bless, Beth
 
Oh yes, indeed it did spread north! All speakers for every seminar, instructions in the Faith, CCW group features, etc. had an import from the Saginaw Diocese. Even the priestesses got contracts!
 
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