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JimR-OCDS
Guest
You have no right to call a person evil.
In fact, its a violation of the rules of this forum.
Jim
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In fact, its a violation of the rules of this forum.
Jim
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tomarin
Guest
If he supports legal abortion because he can’t tell other people what to do/ is incapable of making a moral judgement, I wonder where he stands on euthanasia?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
From what I have read in what he has said and done, he doesn’t support abortion.
He opposes abortion, but will not force his belief on others.
Again, I don’t agree with his position, but I would not be calling him or anyone with such a position, evil.
Jim
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tomarin
Guest
How about morally oblivious?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
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TMC
Guest
The Church doesn’t teach that.
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clem456
Guest
“Notre Dame” or “Our Lady”, a Catholic university.
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clem456
Guest
The Church does not condition the objective evil of murder on legal definitions.
Murder is the taking of innocent life. The moral law trumps legalities. Abortion is always and everywhere murder.
Whether societies want to classify abortion legally as murder and punish accordingly is another matter.
I personally don’t see the point in punishing the woman. Murder is it’s own punishment.
The idea that a public person, or any person for that matter, can live a life attuned with Jesus Christ and the Church while not speaking up for the most defenseless among us is problematic.
Murder is a most pressing matter. It is not like a disagreement on the best way to feed the poor. It is an evil for which the only and necessary response is “no”.
The fact that a person cannot directly and autonomously change laws does not lessen the responsibility to speak up and act. Offenses against life are not merely a matter of direct offenses, but also of neglect when one has the opportunity to act.
As Vice President of the US, he surely has the responsibility and the opportunity to vigorously uphold the rights of the the defenseless, who are under direct attack.
As we all do. (but, most of us are not being given an award at Notre Dame)
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Tomdstone
Guest
Is there any point in punishing a husband for killing his wife?
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clem456
Guest
I get it. I do. Not saying it would be unjust at all.
I just don’t have a desire to punish 'em. I don’t think it would accomplish anything.
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Tomdstone
Guest
It has been thought for a long time that punishment is a deterrent to a crime.
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clem456
Guest
It has also been thought it is not a deterrent.
Crime in the USA seems to indicate otherwise.
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Tomdstone
Guest
So if a husband murders his wife, it does not make sense to punish him for that?
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clem456
Guest
I didn’t think I said that. If I did I apologize, I did not mean to say that.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
clem456;
The Church teaches that procuring an abortion, is an intrinsic moral evil and that “formal” cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
It becomes grey with legislation which does not cooperate with abortion through direct funding, which is illegal under the Hyde Amendment. So, as an example, a bill to fund a health clinic on an Indian Reservation, is not cooperating with evil per se for the politician who votes for it, even though the clinic may provide abortions. Voting not to outlaw abortion if such a bill comes before you, like the ban on partial birth abortions, is cooperation with evil.
I don’t know and I’ve never been a Biden fan. He tends to eat his words which is common for people who have been in politics for too long.
Jim
So pilots are murders when they bomb and kill innocent people ? What about President Bush, when he launched cruise missiles in an attempt to kill Sadam, but Sadam wasn’t at that location, but 1000 innocent people were, is he a murderer ?
The Church teaches that procuring an abortion, is an intrinsic moral evil and that “formal” cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
It becomes grey with legislation which does not cooperate with abortion through direct funding, which is illegal under the Hyde Amendment. So, as an example, a bill to fund a health clinic on an Indian Reservation, is not cooperating with evil per se for the politician who votes for it, even though the clinic may provide abortions. Voting not to outlaw abortion if such a bill comes before you, like the ban on partial birth abortions, is cooperation with evil.
If you’re going to write a law banning abortion, you’re going to have to include the penalty section on it, otherwise its a useless law. And the fact that no one wants to send a woman to jail who obtains an abortion, nor the doctor who performed it, we will never see such legislation written, never mind make it through Congress if one made it that far.
Agreed, and I don’t know if Biden never did. Shame on him if he didn’t.
Depends on how the legislation is worded and what attachments are in it. I’m not a lawyer nor a congressmen, so I don’t have the level of expertise and from what I’ve seen first hand, neither do many Catholic Bishops.
And there are probably mitigating circumstances which makes Biden less culpable that what we see on the surface.
I don’t know and I’ve never been a Biden fan. He tends to eat his words which is common for people who have been in politics for too long.
Jim
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Pulvis
Guest
I do not think legal gymnastics will work during the personal judgement. I prefer to base my life decisions on the four last things, and live accordingly.
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Tomdstone
Guest
No you did not say that. I apologize if that meaning was conveyed in my post. I was probing the logic involved in the two cases.
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Ender
Guest
The definition of murder is not merely “killing the innocent”, but “intentionally killing the innocent.” This is why pilots are not committing murder when innocent people are killed during a legitimate bombing raid.
Such laws still exist in most states, and I suspect in most of them it is the doctor who is punished. This crime was once taken quite seriously.
That’s a pretty low standard for an award recipient.
Ender
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LittleFlower378
Guest
It’s quite clear from:
1)St.Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI Writings
2)CDF Documents (Catholics & Politics) and others
3)Bishops writings
4)Reason
A Catholic politician that endorses abortion or signs laws that promote abortion is commiting a grave evil.
1)St.Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI Writings
2)CDF Documents (Catholics & Politics) and others
3)Bishops writings
4)Reason
A Catholic politician that endorses abortion or signs laws that promote abortion is commiting a grave evil.
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zz912
Guest
What leads you to claim there are “probably” mitigating circumstances? He doesn’t appear mentally ill. He’s dimwitted, but not mentally ill. He has spent DECADES in power. So he’s not being forced to proclaim his support for intrinsic evils. He can resign from his position at any time. He’s not destitute nor financially in trouble. He knows Church teaching as he has stated many times.
So where do you come up with claiming there is “probably” a mitigating circumstance? At BEST, you could state there MAY be some wild, unknown circumstance that we can’t see that is unique to him. But it is NOT readily apparent nor is he subject to any normal circumstance that could mitigate that we are aware of.
All this being said, because someone MIGHT be suffering some circumstance that would mitigate his support for intrinsic evil, that does NOT justify him being honored with a Catholic award. It simply does NOT.
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