Bishop says Notre Dame is wrong to honor Joe Biden

[JimR-OCDS]

Agreed-they are all to ready to invoke their faith when pushing for increases in social spending but when to comes to abortion they clam its not right to force their faith on others.

Its why we as Christians have to separate ourselves from the political ideologies of both the Democrat and Republican parties.

Both conflict with our faith.

At the same time however, we can not promote the false accusations made by those who have an ego-identity attachment to those political groups, for we’ll fall into the trap of bearing false witness toward our neighbors. Politicians are neighbors too, even though we disagree with many of their positions.

Jim

 

[tomarin]

Its why we as Christians have to separate ourselves from the political ideologies of both the Democrat and Republican parties.

Both conflict with our faith.

At the same time however, we can not promote the false accusations made by those who have an ego-identity attachment to those political groups, for we’ll fall into the trap of bearing false witness toward our neighbors. Politicians are neighbors too, even though we disagree with many of their positions.

Jim

On the life issues being a Republican doesn’t conflict with our faith. How does being a Republican conflict with being Catholic?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

On the life issues being a Republican doesn’t conflict with our faith. How does being a Republican conflict with being Catholic?

On social issues, the GOP fails on many points.

Even Paul Ryan’s proposed budget a couple years ago, met with opposition from the USCCB’s and was said to fail the morality test.

Catholic Bishops Say GOP Budget ‘Fails Basic Moral Test,’ Points to Food Stamps, Medicaid Cuts

ibtimes.com/catholic-bishops-say-gop-budget-fails-basic-moral-test-points-food-stamps-medicaid-cuts-697652

Jim

 

[tomarin]

On social issues, the GOP fails on many points.

Even Paul Ryan’s proposed budget a couple years ago, met with opposition from the USCCB’s and was said to fail the morality test.

Jim

What social issues besides Paul Ryan’s budget? And are these the proportionate issues that allow one to vote for anti-life Democrats?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What social issues besides Paul Ryan’s budget? And are these the proportionate issues that allow one to vote for anti-life Democrats?

See the link to my previous post. I added it after you responded to the original

Jim

 

[Ender]

Even correct, they have no authority on the decision ND makes.

The point being debated is not whether the bishop can enforce his decision - obviously he cannot - it is whether or not his position is correct.

And its a grey area on whether the Bishop’s judgment of Biden is in fact correct.

What area is gray? Whether supporting abortion is a sin, or whether Biden supports abortion? Aren’t the answers to both of these questions self-evident?

Apparently the heads at Notre Dame and his own Bishop, have a different opinion.

There are other assumptions one can reasonably make, but which position do you think the president of ND took: that supporting abortion is not sinful?

We’re talking about what takes place between Biden, his Bishop and Pastor. That is not public record.

No, the issue is absolutely not what takes place between Biden and his bishop; that is not the controlling element. Because Biden’s actions are public there is need of a public response. Anything less is a cause for scandal.

Biden’s Bishop has not told him to not receive Holy Communion.

True. Nothing whatever can be deduced from this, but it is obviously true.

We might disagree, but that’s the reality of how canon law works.

What reality is that? That canon law is arbitrary? That a bishop may disregard it if he chooses?

Ender

 

[JimR-OCDS]

T
No, the issue is absolutely not what takes place between Biden and his bishop; that is not the controlling element.
Ender

That was the point that I was discussing, not the Biden’s public record.

We have a right to know his voting record, but not what goes on between his Bishop and himself.

Jim

 

[Ender]

On social issues, the GOP fails on many points.

This is not true. The church has no position on the correct solution to social issues. A party cannot “fail” on an issue where there is no applicable doctrine.

Even Paul Ryan’s proposed budget a couple years ago, met with opposition from the USCCB’s and was said to fail the morality test.

The opposition was not from “the USCCB”, but from one or two individual bishops. More relevantly, their personal opposition was just that: their personal political inclination. Ryan’s budget could not “fail the morality test” because - again - there was no moral issue involved.

I think this is the worst result of bishops involving themselves in political issues: people believe there is a moral question involved when this is virtually never the case.

Ender

 

[Ender]

We have a right to know his voting record, but not what goes on between his Bishop and himself.

Nothing that happens in private between Biden and his bishop can change the public nature of his actions, nor can it be assumed that Biden has changed his position. If he has not changed his position he cannot be absolved, and until he is absolved the conditions of Canon 915 are met.

This is in fact the scandal. Someone who publicly supports actions that are gravely sinful is treated as if those facts were irrelevant.

Ender

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The opposition was not from “the USCCB”, but from one or two individual bishops. More relevantly, their personal opposition was just that: their personal political inclination. Ryan’s budget could not “fail the morality test” because - again - there was no moral issue involved.

I think this is the worst result of bishops involving themselves in political issues: people believe there is a moral question involved when this is virtually never the case.

Ender

From the USCCB website

“The House-passed budget resolution fails to meet these moral criteria.” Bishop Blaire also wrote that cuts to nutrition programs such as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP- food stamps) and the Child Tax Credit (CTC) will hurt hungry children, poor families, low-income workers and other vulnerable people. Additionally, he wrote that if cuts to the federal budget need to be made, savings should first be found in programs that target more affluent and powerful interests.

usccb.org/news/2012/12-063.cfm

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Nothing that happens in private between Biden and his bishop can change the public nature of his actions, nor can it be assumed that Biden has changed his position. If he has not changed his position he cannot be absolved, and until he is absolved the conditions of Canon 915 are met.

This is in fact the scandal. Someone who publicly supports actions that are gravely sinful is treated as if those facts were irrelevant.

Ender

Again, Biden’s own Bishop has not prohibited him from receiving Holy Communion and what they two of them talked about in private, is none of our business.

You keep wanting to refer to his public record in government.

Two different things.

Jim

 

[TMC]

The point being debated is not whether the bishop can enforce his decision - obviously he cannot - it is whether or not his position is correct.
What area is gray? Whether supporting abortion is a sin, or whether Biden supports abortion? Aren’t the answers to both of these questions self-evident?
There are other assumptions one can reasonably make, but which position do you think the president of ND took: that supporting abortion is not sinful?
No, the issue is absolutely not what takes place between Biden and his bishop; that is not the controlling element. Because Biden’s actions are public there is need of a public response. Anything less is a cause for scandal.
True. Nothing whatever can be deduced from this, but it is obviously true.
What reality is that? That canon law is arbitrary? That a bishop may disregard it if he chooses?

Ender

Its seems evident that the majority of the bishops view canon law differently than you do. Isn’t that really the issue, that you see canon law as requiring denying communion and most bishops don’t?

 

[commenter]

commenter

Correct because those colleges became independent secular controlled colleges as the religious orders that ran them, sold them. They kept the Catholic indentity until the Bishop removed it.

Such is not the case for Notre Dame which is still controlled by the Congregation of the Holy Cross, which has Papal approval and comes under the authority of the Pope, not a Diocesan Bishop. Its why the local Bishop has a hard time dealing with them.

Well support for the Holy Cross Fathers has not stopped and there are plenty of alumni members to Notre Dame to prevent a secular take over, or the renunciation of their Catholic Identity. It won’t happen in my lifetime and having Joe Biden receive the award isn’t going to make it happen either.

Anyway, CAF members have little to say about what Notre Dame decides and I see the similar situation at a local college in my area, Holy Cross. The Bishops have reacted to some of their guests and activities and thankfully the college has honored the Bishop’s requests.

Jim

Some colleges, such as Manhattan Marymount in NYCity, were listed as Catholic in the Archdiocesan directory, which is official, and unofficial national directories. The Cardinal Newman Society complained to the Archdiocese after Hilary Clinton spoke there. The Archdiocese dropped the college from the directory. It is true the bishop-ordinary has the authority, but laypeople can bring things to his attention, which he may not be aware of. Unlike some groups, the Cardinal Newman Society is fully in unity with the Magisterium.

Yes, Rome does have primary jurisdiction over the Holy Cross Fathers. Laypeople can either formally (code of canon law) or informally petition the Vatican. This has been attempted at least with Georgetown. Catholic laity could, in theory, choose to discourage fundraising or recruitment of vocations for the Holy Cross Fathers. These efforts, combined with some pressure from bishops, might eventually lead the Holy Cross Fathers to either stop the secularization or walk away from a misleading operation.

The local bishop’s power may be limited but there is some. The diocese gives ND free publicity and credibility. The bishops of South Bend have accepted speaking invitations there, which might be reconsidered now. He may be more willing to take action if he knows the laity are backing him up. My understanding is that the bishop still has the right of approving religious order priests who are being assigned to his diocese. Usually this is just a formality, but what if he did not approve any from the Holy Cross Fathers?

 

[estesbob]

Again, Biden’s own Bishop has not prohibited him from receiving Holy Communion and what they two of them talked about in private, is none of our business.

You keep wanting to refer to his public record in government.

Two different things.

Jim

The question is not whether or not should receive communion . The question is whether someone who publicly end defiantly rejects Catholic teaching should receive an honor to my Catholic University . The answer is obviously no. As we have seen in this thread alone to do so causes some Catholics believe that such disobedience is acceptable.

 

[estesbob]

From the USCCB website

There is nothing in the Republican Party platform that is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. The same cannot be said about the Democrat Party . There is no moral equivalence between a Party that steadfastly stands in direct opposition to core moral teachings of the Catholic Church and individual members of the Republican Party proposing a budget that some Bishops find objectionable

 

[Ender]

From the USCCB website
“The House-passed budget resolution fails to meet these moral criteria.” Bishop Blaire also wrote…

I am aware of what was written. I’m saying that it is…wrong. There are no moral criteria involved. Blair makes two assumptions: that the proposals he supports will help the poor while the proposals he opposes will harm them, and, most spectacularly, that the people who wrote the proposal he opposes…know this.

If I do what I think is best, even if I am wrong I have committed no sin, and if there is no sin there is no moral issue. It is only if I deliberately do something I believe will be harmful that I can sin, so Blair’s position reduces to this: “Ryan et al are indifferent to the plight of the poor.” That is, his judgment about a “moral failure” is about the people who wrote the bill, not the bill itself.

On CAF it is risky to be too aggressive in faulting a bishop’s actions, otherwise I should be more blunt in commenting on Blair’s statement.

Ender

 

[Ender]

Its seems evident that the majority of the bishops view canon law differently than you do.

This is not at all evident. It is obvious that many high profile bishops have refused to apply Canon 915, but that does not mean they believe its conditions have not been met. That may be the most charitable assumption, but it does not seem like the most reasonable one.

Isn’t that really the issue, that you see canon law as requiring denying communion and most bishops don’t?

Canon law does require the denial of communion; that is not debatable. The question is whether the conditions it specifies for imposing the sanction have been met in particular instances. The law is really not at all complicated; it isn’t as if one has to be a canon lawyer to understand it.*Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.
*The criteria that must be met are these: the sin must be grave, the action manifest, and it must continue over time. So: which of these criteria does not apply to Biden (Pelosi, Cuomo, Kennedy, et al)?

Ender

 

[Ender]

Again, Biden’s own Bishop has not prohibited him from receiving Holy Communion and what they two of them talked about in private, is none of our business.

You keep wanting to refer to his public record in government.

Two different things.

What could happen in private discussions that would matter? What could his bishop do in private that would mitigate what Biden has done publicly? Their private conversations are utterly irrelevant; it doesn’t matter what they discuss. It changes nothing.

Ender

 

[TMC]

This is not at all evident. It is obvious that many high profile bishops have refused to apply Canon 915, but that does not mean they believe its conditions have not been met. That may be the most charitable assumption, but it does not seem like the most reasonable one.
Canon law does require the denial of communion; that is not debatable. The question is whether the conditions it specifies for imposing the sanction have been met in particular instances. The law is really not at all complicated; it isn’t as if one has to be a canon lawyer to understand it.Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.
The criteria that must be met are these: the sin must be grave, the action manifest, and it must continue over time. So: which of these criteria does not apply to Biden (Pelosi, Cuomo, Kennedy, et al)?

Ender

You say it is not debatable, but I have seen bishops and cardinals disagree. So I go back to my original point - they see the requirement differently than you do. Given the well documented history of politicians receiving directly from the Pope(s), it would seem those bishops are in good company.

As I noted earlier on the thread, that does not mean that the Pope or those bishops approve of every position or action of those politicians.

 

[Ender]

You say it is not debatable, but I have seen bishops and cardinals disagree.

What I said was that the law requires that communion not be distributed. The question (as I also said) was whether particular individuals met the conditions of the law. If the the conditions are met then there is no option to allow communion.

So I go back to my original point - they see the requirement differently than you do.

Whatever a bishop believes, the law is clear. Those who satisfy the criteria of canon 915 “*are not to be admitted to holy communion.” *What part of “are not” is optional?

Given the well documented history of politicians receiving directly from the Pope(s), it would seem those bishops are in good company.

It is one thing for a politician’s own bishop to be aware of his public positions, but there is little justification in assuming the pope bothers himself with what a country’s politicians are about.

I asked a very specific question earlier to which you have not responded. There are three criteria which must be satisfied for canon 915 to be applied: the sin must be grave, the action manifest, and it must continue over time. Which of these criteria does not apply to Biden?

Ender