Bishops Begin Distancing from Vatican Document on Gays in Priesthood

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

Any “leaning” is allowing bias to cloud discernment of the Holy Spirit. It will take prayer and possibly alot of time for this issue to be clearly resolved to the satisfaction of the Holy Spirit. In the meantime, I will trust that the Bishops (all of them regardless of their own personal bias’) are properly doing their best to exercise their God-given obligation to Shepherd their flock and are prayerfully trying to discern the infallible Mind of the Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I hope they all are, but experience shows us they all are not, thus we read their words and notice they conflict with Rome.

Whenever one labels themselves as conservative or liberal, it is a manifestation of their own ego or pride. I’m guilty of this myself. But I aspire not to project my own sinful nature onto the Church or its Bishops.

They are short hand terms that aptly describe many. You may deny reality if you wish, but these things go on each day whether you accept it or not.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Fix: (Labels as Conservative or Liberal) are short hand terms that aptly describe many. You may deny reality if you wish, but these things go on each day whether you accept it or not.

I refuse to go there with regard to the Church. It is neither liberal or conservative. It is the guardian of the Truth and has no bias.

If I apply a label on a Bishop that differs from the label I would apply to myself, I’m naturally inclined to disregard what this Bishop says. This nourishes the seed of disunity. Disunity is the scourge of humanity and contrary to Christ’s message.

For the first half of my adult life, my Bishop was labeled a “liberal” because he spent alot of time advocating social justice matters. For the second half of my adult life, the succeeding Bishop was labeled a “conservative” because he spent alot of time advocating Pro-Life and Catholic Identity issues. But you know what, on matters of Church Teachings, morals and liturgy, there is no difference between the two men. In short, the labels diminished them and their teaching authority. I’m not going to contribute to the diminishment of the Church by the use of labels.

 

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

I refuse to go there with regard to the Church. It is neither liberal or conservative. It is the guardian of the Truth and has no bias.

If I apply a label on a Bishop that differs from the label I would apply to myself, I’m naturally inclined to disregard what this Bishop says. This nourishes the seed of disunity. Disunity is the scourge of humanity and contrary to Christ’s message.

For the first half of my adult life, my Bishop was labeled a “liberal” because he spent alot of time advocating social justice matters. For the second half of my adult life, the succeeding Bishop was labeled a “conservative” because he spent alot of time advocating Pro-Life and Catholic Identity issues. But you know what, on matters of Church Teachings, morals and liturgy, there is no difference between the two men. In short, the labels diminished them and their teaching authority. I’m not going to contribute to the diminishment of the Church by the use of labels.

That is not usually the case. Those termed liberal do not follow the Church’s teaching in all areas. They may be in communion on paper, yet allow all manner of dissent to go uncorrected. This stuff is old hat and well documented. Why debate the obvious?

I am not calling for disobedience. I am saying it is disingenuous to claim there is no problem with the Church in America and many liberal minded bishops.

Is that so unusual? The Church has has many bad bishops, priests and laity. At times like this we need to speak plainly, each work for a conversion to holiness, but not cover up problems and act as if everyone is loyal when words and actions say otherwise.

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

That is not usually the case. Those termed liberal do not follow the Church’s teaching in all areas. They may be in communion on paper, yet allow all manner of dissent to go uncorrected. This stuff is old hat and well documented. Why debate the obvious?

I am not calling for disobedience. I am saying it is disingenuous to claim there is no problem with the Church in America and many liberal minded bishops.

Is that so unusual? The Church has has many bad bishops, priests and laity. At times like this we need to speak plainly, each work for a conversion to holiness, but not cover up problems and act as if everyone is loyal when words and actions say otherwise.

Doesn’t matter if it is usually the case or not (I think it is). The use of labels is distracting, diminishes the Bishop and the Church, and sows the seeds of disunity. I think it is illuminating of your bias that you’d use the word “liberal” to describe people that are essentially heretics and “bad bishops” in the same post but don’t ascribe any defects to those you’d call “conservative.”

Furthermore, if these Bishops are “bad bishops”, either the Pope is dealing w/ such Bishop’s according to his own discernment of instruction from the Holy Spirit (whereby we should at least be as charitable as the Pope is), he is himself a heretic, or being derilict in his duties. But since we are incapable to judge which of these are true, we should probably not contribute to the problems in the American Church by promoting disunity. Additionally, we should be careful in our characterizations lest we be guilty of the 9th Commandment (bear false witness against our neighbor) which is a grave matter for which we may make ourselves unworthy to receive the Eucharist and bring condemnation upon ourselves.

 

[manualman]

A plain reading of the text should make it clear to anyone that the “deep-seated” descriptor is intended to be a contrast against the “transitory” descriptor used elsewhere.

Thus, judged soley on the contents of the document, I would say that someone with a ‘deep-seated’ SSA is anyone with an SSA that is not transitory. This understanding in supported by the fact that the document includes the 3 year period as a means of distinguishing deep-seated from transitory.

I’m astonished that anybody could READ it and interpret it differently!

 

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

Doesn’t matter if it is usually the case or not (I think it is). The use of labels is distracting, diminishes the Bishop and the Church, and sows the seeds of disunity. I think it is illuminating of your bias that you’d use the word “liberal” to describe people that are essentially heretics and “bad bishops” in the same post but don’t ascribe any defects to those you’d call “conservative.”

Because I am using liberal in a pejorative way to make the point. I do not have to make this stuff up, just read the paper or the links in these fora.

Furthermore, if these Bishops are “bad bishops”, either the Pope is dealing w/ such Bishop’s according to his own discernment of instruction from the Holy Spirit (whereby we should at least be as charitable as the Pope is), he is himself a heretic, or being derilict in his duties.

This is your opinion I do not know why things go uncorrected. There may be many reasons. That does not mean we should overlook everything and fail to comment on it.

You conclusion about the Pope starts from a faulty premise and one you decided upon yourself to support your argument.

But since we are incapable to judge which of these are true, we should probably not contribute to the problems in the American Church by promoting disunity.

How do you accept a problem that does not exist? If it exists, how do you know it? Why is discussion disunity? Should every word be effete in order to be charitable?

Additionally, we should be careful in our characterizations lest we be guilty of the 9th Commandment (bear false witness against our neighbor) which is a grave matter for which we may make ourselves unworthy to receive the Eucharist and bring condemnation upon ourselves.

See, this type of thing only shows me you are guilty of what you accuse me of. Let us stop the hyperbole as a simple attempt to win a debate.

 

[Brad]

Orionthehunter:

I refuse to go there with regard to the Church. It is neither liberal or conservative. It is the guardian of the Truth and has no bias.

I don’t like to go there either. I don’t like to be called “conservative” when I am standing for a truth revealed by the Church. I also don’t like some to hide behind the term “liberal” when they are opposing a truth of the Church. This gives dissenters the credibility they are looking for as if them obfuscating a teaching or even outright opposing a teaching has equal weight ot the teaching itself. Some attempt to promote the idea that dissent is just another way of looking at a teaching, i.e. cafeteria Catholicism.

I like the terms orthodox and heterodox. It spells things out better. However, when we call someone’s point of view “heterodox”, they tend to get upset - so, rather than incite anger, we tend to use the term “liberal” because most understand it’s connotations and we aren’t inciting anyone.

Bottom line: when the obfuscation and dissent stops, we won’t need the terms.

 

[Brad]

Orionthehunter:

If I apply a label on a Bishop that differs from the label I would apply to myself, I’m naturally inclined to disregard what this Bishop says. This nourishes the seed of disunity. Disunity is the scourge of humanity and contrary to Christ’s message.

Disunity is against the message of Christ but we must ask the question: what is the root of the disunity? Is it my disagreement with a Bishop or is it the Bishop’s disagreement with the Magisterial Teaching of the Catholic Church? Indeed, many saints have disagreed with Bishops and even Popes and, in so doing, brought hierarchical leadership back to unity in the Body of Christ.

Jesus clearly indicated that leaders in the Church would sometimes be wrong and He clearly showed us who we should be loyal to, when, and how.

There is a critical distinction as to who has teaching authority in the Church. It is NOT all Bishops. It is those Bishops acting in communion with the Holy Father.

 

[Brad]

Orionthehunter:

Doesn’t matter if it is usually the case or not (I think it is). The use of labels is distracting, diminishes the Bishop and the Church, and sows the seeds of disunity. I think it is illuminating of your bias that you’d use the word “liberal” to describe people that are essentially heretics and “bad bishops” in the same post but don’t ascribe any defects to those you’d call “conservative.”

“Liberal” generally means dissenting or allowance of dissent. Would you prefer we say “heretic” or “allower of heresy”? Saying “liberal” is not being biased but being kind.

I rarely ever hear someone who is orthodox call another orthodox “conservative”. I see those that are heterodox calling those that are orthodox “conservative”.

Indeed, let us get rid of the labels and lay all the cards on the table so that those that are orthodox are not undermined by liberal-leaning individuals in the Church.

Orionthehunter:

Furthermore, if these Bishops are “bad bishops”, either the Pope is dealing w/ such Bishop’s according to his own discernment of instruction from the Holy Spirit (whereby we should at least be as charitable as the Pope is), he is himself a heretic, or being derilict in his duties. But since we are incapable to judge which of these are true, we should probably not contribute to the problems in the American Church by promoting disunity. Additionally, we should be careful in our characterizations lest we be guilty of the 9th Commandment (bear false witness against our neighbor) which is a grave matter for which we may make ourselves unworthy to receive the Eucharist and bring condemnation upon ourselves.

Not a chance. Disunity is indeed a problem. However, It is wrong to be silent when heterodoxy is contributing to the collapse and eternal damnation of souls. To be silent under these circumstance shows disconcern for the eternal life of the many that are subjected to weak or false teaching, most especially children being led astray. This cannot be tolerated.

As I have said, stop the dissent and disunity will end. There is no unity outside of Jesus Christ who is absolute Truth.

 

[fix]

Brad:

Bottom line: when the obfuscation and dissent stops, we won’t need the terms.

Excellent point and one I have never considered. Last month a priest in my church referred to us as a progressive parish and we are in many ways much to my dismay. Should he be considered to be sowing disunity? I would think many thought of it as a compliment.

 

[fix]

Brad:

Disunity is against the message of Christ but we must ask the question: what is the root of the disunity? Is it my disagreement with a Bishop or is it the Bishop’s disagreement with the Magisterial Teaching of the Catholic Church? Indeed, many saints have disagreed with Bishops and even Popes and, in so doing, brought hierarchical leadership back to unity in the Body of Christ.

Jesus clearly indicated that leaders in the Church would sometimes be wrong and He clearly showed us who we should be loyal to, when, and how.

There is a critical distinction as to who has teaching authority in the Church. It is NOT all Bishops. It is those Bishops acting in communion with the Holy Father.

Thank you. You are more articulate than I am and I appreciate your wisdom. Now, the above post would seem to some to intend that we are able to discern these issues when they are not ours to discern.

What is your response to this line of reasoning?

 

[Brad]

fix:

How do you accept a problem that does not exist? If it exists, how do you know it? Why is discussion disunity? Should every word be effete in order to be charitable?

We have been taught for years that be have to be “nice”. And being “nice” creates unity. Disagreeing causes “disunity” because it it “intolerant”.

As one of my favorite priests has said, “Grandma’s cookies are nice”. Christ is Truth and Love.

Christ was willing to lose every single one of his disciples as a result of one single truth that he revealed. He would not budge on the truth to retain even 1 disciple.

Today, it is not enough to be “nice” and “tolerant” of individual grave sinners. We must also be “nice” and “tolerant” of false teachers that indicate that sin and truth are all relative.

The fruits of being “nice” and “tolerant” of everyone are being seen in society today. Never before has perversion been so tolerated and even celebrated. All because we are all so nice.

This is the “dictatorship of relativism” that Pope Benedict XVI spoke of.

 

[Brad]

fix:

Thank you. You are more articulate than I am and I appreciate your wisdom. Now, the above post would seem to some to intend that we are able to discern these issues when they are not ours to discern.

What is your response to this line of reasoning?

Not sure if I agree regarding the articulation and wisdom. Just throwing in supporting arguments.

Are you asking me what my response would be to someone that asked where I get the authority to disagree with a Bishop on a particular matter?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Brad:

We have been taught for years that be have to be “nice”. And being “nice” creates unity. Disagreeing causes “disunity” because it it “intolerant”.

As one of my favorite priests has said, “Grandma’s cookies are nice”. Christ is Truth and Love.

Christ was willing to lose every single one of his disciples as a result of one single truth that he revealed. He would not budge on the truth to retain even 1 disciple.

Today, it is not enough to be “nice” and “tolerant” of individual grave sinners. We must also be “nice” and “tolerant” of false teachers that indicate that sin and truth are all relative.

The fruits of being “nice” and “tolerant” of everyone are being seen in society today. Never before has perversion been so tolerated and even celebrated. All because we are all so nice.

This is the “dictatorship of relativism” that Pope Benedict XVI spoke of.

I have learned that there are two easy and simplistic paths in life. One is to be excessively tolerant and the other is to be excessively judgmental. The hard path is to be charitable in truth and compassion.

My point is that we need to be more charitable to our Bishop’s as they are in the beginning stages of grasping the intent and ramifications of this instruction from Rome. We should not be quick to interpret a Bishop’s statement when he is still in the process of discerning the instruction. Furthermore, just as we rely on the Church to help us discern Scripture, we should also rely on our Bishop’s to discern instruction from the Pope. If the Bishop’s err in their interpretation, I have every confidence that the Pope will clarify their interpretation.

 

[Nohome]

Orionthehunter:

I have learned that there are two easy and simplistic paths in life. One is to be excessively tolerant and the other is to be excessively judgmental. The hard path is to be charitable in truth and compassion.

Excellent point. While tend to be guilty of the former, many here tend to be the latter. I commend you if you are able to tow such a tough line.

Nohome

 

[Brad]

Orionthehunter:

I have learned that there are two easy and simplistic paths in life. One is to be excessively tolerant and the other is to be excessively judgmental. The hard path is to be charitable in truth and compassion.

I agree. The latter path is the correct path. Truth in charity is not only the correct way to go, it also is the most effective. Fancy that - God was right!

Orionthehunter:

My point is that we need to be more charitable to our Bishop’s as they are in the beginning stages of grasping the intent and ramifications of this instruction from Rome. We should not be quick to interpret a Bishop’s statement when he is still in the process of discerning the instruction.

And I would say that I agree with you except in the situations where they have made public statements that are contrary to the document. In this case, they are not discerning but casting judgement or politically posturing. The fact is that we have seen politcal posturing from many Bishops for some time now. I would much rather they discern for their flock in prayer and put the politics asided.

Orionthehunter:

Furthermore, just as we rely on the Church to help us discern Scripture, we should also rely on our Bishop’s to discern instruction from the Pope. If the Bishop’s err in their interpretation, I have every confidence that the Pope will clarify their interpretation.

We should indeed rely on our Bishop. You bring up an important case. What to do when The Bishop errors in interpretation? How about when (this is more common) they simply ignore the document? In the latter case, the Pope will not correct anything because He has already taught. We follow the instructions as they were taught.

Even when a Bishop errors in interpretation, he is rarely publically corrected. One reason is because the Pope is extremely busy. The other is because he more likely will do the correction in private. The Pope understands that these Bishops are directly accountable to God - they are directly responsible for the souls they shepherd. It is not feasible for the Pope to fix every faulty instruction of every Bishop. That is not his role. This is another reason why the laity must find a voice during these tumultuous times.

 

[Brad]

Nohome:

Excellent point. While tend to be guilty of the former, many here tend to be the latter. I commend you if you are able to tow such a tough line.

Nohome

Have you not just cast judgement with this statement?

 

[Nohome]

Brad:

Have you not just cast judgement with this statement?

See how narrow a path Orionthehunter has paved?

 

[Brad]

Nohome:

See how narrow a path Orionthehunter has paved?

It is less narrow that you are implying. “Excessively judgemental” is a pretty strong assessment. I don’t think there are too many on these forums that fall into that category.

If I am wrong, I would like to see examples. Let’s remember that making judgements regarding the truth or error of statements and teachings is natural and correct. When Orion says “excessively judgmental”, I presume that it means discounting the individual and his prospects for salvation.

 

[fix]

Brad:

When Orion says “excessively judgmental”, I presume that it means discounting the individual and his prospects for salvation.

I will let him answer that, but it seems that may not be the interpretation many have of excessively judgmental these days.