Bishops with flash cars

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It must effect your concentration, you didn’t log off for another 20 minutes.

I wouldn’t want to minimize anyone’s illness, mental or physical. But it seems that you have had no problem concentrating when gossiping about the Bishop or quoting Jack Chick. There only seems to be a problem when you get called on it.
It took me twenty minutes to finish taking my medication. I cannot help being ill. My medication does make me get very confused and have already explained that I abhor Jack Chick. But you seem determined to want to pick on the vulnerable. I am not well enough to listen to personal attacks. I am pleading with you as a Christian to please leave me alone.
 
No, you should, if you can, drive your elderly relatives. I hope that I still care about my parents when they get to the age that driving would be dangerous. I hope that I care enough to drive them or find someone that can.
My point was that they, like many of us, cannot afford a personal driver, and somehow (by the grace of God and making an effort?) are able to get around. And many of those that can afford a personal driver, do not chose that luxury.

If he is in such condition to be unsafe to drive, why not send him back to the convent in Maryland and share the transportation with others in the community there, instead of being in charge of Church and needing a driver and two or three house managers.

Michael
 
Then for all of you who would denounce a Bishop who merely lives according to the rights his most holy office allows him, please go and evict the Holy Father from the Apostolic Palace, the Lateran Palace, Castel Gandalfo, and the numerous other Papal residences. Please tell the Vicar of Christ that to have Palaces and servants and guards and a massive personal library is a grave evil, and then direct him to a cardboard box.
i respect the position and the man, but if i had a papal audience, i would address the gross misuse of funds for these palaces. the apostle paul repeatedly says in the new testament that the apostles give up their “rights” because it is not the will of God.
 
i respect the position and the man, but if i had a papal audience, i would address the gross misuse of funds for these palaces. the apostle paul repeatedly says in the new testament that the apostles give up their “rights” because it is not the will of God.
Well said.

Michael
 
Would you care to provide an authoritative link for the “gross misuse of funds for palaces?”

I am not denying that there are rather ‘ornate’ (and not just by noted style such as Baroque and Rococco) dwellings and churches, simply because Catholicism has been around for 2000 years and for most of that time Western culture has believed that the best way to show love and worship of God was to “give him the best” as had been commanded by Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

However, I fail to see God condemning the Israelites for the construction of the extremely ornate “Ark” and he positively commends the building of the extremely costly Temple.

God Himself makes the distinction (and St. Paul does also in his letters) between what is demanded of a person in his ‘private’ life, and what is demanded of a person in his ‘public’ life. The high priest of the Jewish people, let’s call him “Ezekiel”, is to do everything demanded of any other Jewish male. . .fast, give alms to the poor, follow the Law. BUT. . .when “Ezekiel” is up there in his **function ** as High Priest, “Ezekiel” is no longer to wear sackcloth or even a ‘modest’ garment. “Ezekiel” is no longer to worship “in silence” in his modest home but is to lead the worship in this huge ornate temple–not because of “Ezekiel’s” personal holiness but because of his God-given authority. Can’t you see the difference?

Since God is unchanging, I don’t think that He suddenly decided, “Hey, I want nothing but Woolworth for cups, Walmart for linens and you can scavenge the dumps for lumber, etc. And as for priests/bishops, they should be in the local Motel 6.”

People are making a mistake (IMO) by trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There is nothing wrong with having an expensive church, chalice, car, anything whatsoever. As has been pointed out, most ‘wealthy’ or ‘flashy’ churches, etc. were not extorted from the poor but freely given by rich and poor alike. Ever seen what is carved into most churches, schools, etc. here in the U.S.? It’s a Latin phrase which translates as “To the Glory of God”.

We all have free will. Many bishops are good and holy men who live quite frugally in their personal lives --but are called upon to have, in their public function as bishops–more responsibilities and more expenses than you and I do.

For example, another poster cast aspersions on a bishop who needed “3 housekeepers” (imagine that, tsk tsk). One fails to consider that, should said bishop somehow be able to put up the house for sale. . .3 people will be, poof! out of a job. . .

Hmmm.

Not enough people are clear sighted to see past the knee jerk and simplistic “cherry picking Scripture” along with the very violent if subconscious anticlericalism that runs so prominently in places which pride themselves on their “democratic” way of view.

IOW, if Bishop X has something “better than me” (no matter the reason), fie on Bishop X! He does not follow Christ! Make him “give up everything”-- but please don’t expect ‘me’ to follow the same rules. 🤷
 
For example, another poster cast aspersions on a bishop who needed “3 housekeepers” (imagine that, tsk tsk). One fails to consider that, should said bishop somehow be able to put up the house for sale. . .3 people will be, poof! out of a job. . .

Hmmm.

Not enough people are clear sighted to see past the knee jerk and simplistic “cherry picking Scripture” along with the very violent if subconscious anticlericalism that runs so prominently in places which pride themselves on their “democratic” way of view.
Please refrain from false witness. In post #129 I asked “If he is not paying rent, who with a free place to stay could not live off 5,000 per month? Who needs two or three sisters to manage their household, and a driver?”

How is that casting aspersions on a bishop? Or is that just a knee-jerk reflex? From Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary:
aspersion: "2 a : a false or misleading charge meant to harm someone’s reputation b : the act of making such a charge : DEFAMATION "

You go on to state: "One fails to consider that, should said bishop somehow be able to put up the house for sale. . .3 people will be, poof! out of a job. . .

Hmmm."
Code:
  If three people and a personal driver are excessive improper luxuries, then one need not sell a house for one or more of those people to find something more useful, and less excessive to do with their Christian vocation. If they no longer are employed serving a servant of God, surely God will call them to a more useful service of others?
Michael
 
People are making a mistake (IMO) by trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There is nothing wrong with having an expensive church, chalice, car, anything whatsoever.
Of course there is nothing inappropriate with honoring God. A prooper Church building, chalice, etc. Be careful about throwing in an individual’s car in with the others.

Michael
 
Not enough people are clear sighted to see past the knee jerk and simplistic “cherry picking Scripture” along with the very violent if subconscious anticlericalism that runs so prominently in places which pride themselves on their “democratic” way of view.

IOW, if Bishop X has something “better than me” (no matter the reason), fie on Bishop X! He does not follow Christ! Make him “give up everything”-- but please don’t expect ‘me’ to follow the same rules. 🤷
So thinking a cleric should probably refrain from owning or accepting an expensive car that average people often cannot afford, like a seven series BMW is now being suggested as “very violetn if subconscious anticlericalism”? My subconscience must be so confused, going to confession regularly, thanking the priest for their homily on regular basis, appreciating the spiritual direction from a priest friend? If I don’t think priests and bishops should drive around in expensive cars, that makes me anticlerical? Interesting.

Michael
 
Michael, I mentioned nobody by name, did I? If your conscience is tender, that is certainly not my doing and it is disingenuous to put yourself, by implication as a ‘martyr’.

Further, you are the one mentioning the “BMW”. . .(not I).

And whether a person attends confession regularly etc. is really no indication of personal ‘rectitude’. . .unless, of course, one goes by the appearance and not the heart. . .🙂
 
Michael, I mentioned nobody by name, did I? If your conscience is tender, that is certainly not my doing and it is disingenuous to put yourself, by implication as a ‘martyr’.

Further, you are the one mentioning the “BMW”. . .(not I).

And whether a person attends confession regularly etc. is really no indication of personal ‘rectitude’. . .unless, of course, one goes by the appearance and not the heart. . .🙂
No you did not mention anyone by name. Where you or where you not referring to my post? Yes or no? Recognizing an apparent reference to what I wrote in post # 129 is observation, not a tender conscience. You wrote "For example, another poster cast aspersions on a bishop who needed “3 housekeepers” (imagine that, tsk tsk). One fails to consider that, should said bishop somehow be able to put up the house for sale. . .3 people will be, poof! out of a job. . :

If you where refering to me or my post, characterizing that as casting aspersions on a bishop, I consider that to be false witness against me. That does not hurt me, just an observation. If I point it out, don’t try to turn that into me implying “martyr”. That is nonsense.

"And whether a person attends confession regularly etc. is really no indication of personal ‘rectitude’. . .unless, of course, one goes by the appearance and not the heart. . "
That is true, and in no way was my following words intended to imply personal rectitude. I stated “So thinking a cleric should probably refrain from owning or accepting an expensive car that average people often cannot afford, like a seven series BMW is now being suggested as “very violetn if subconscious anticlericalism”? My subconscience must be so confused, going to confession regularly, thanking the priest for their homily on regular basis, appreciating the spiritual direction from a priest friend? If I don’t think priests and bishops should drive around in expensive cars, that makes me anticlerical? Interesting.”
Far from suggesting anything about my interior heart, was asking how disagreeing with celibacy can be suggested as subconscious anticlericalism in light of my expressed appreciation for priests and frequent positive interaction with them.

Michael
 
Great, now Jack Chick is being used as a source of information in this thread.

Look, we arent the Amish. We are bound by faith to glorify God, even through temporal means. We glorify God through beautiful churches, sacred vessels worthy of holding the Eucharist, the clothing of the priests and sacred ministers in noble and kingly vestments, and even in providing those who hold priestly and episcopal offices with tokens of gratification and symbols of their holy offices. The clergy are living icons of Christ the King, glorious and triumphant, so it is only fitting that we, as the faithful, bestow their offices with things worthy of Kings. For is not the lowest priest greater then every politician, monarch, industrialist that ever lived? The clergy must reflect the glory and majesty of God as does the whole of the Church.
 
Great, now Jack Chick is being used as a source of information in this thread.
No it isn’t. Jack Chick was quoted by mistake. Please read through the posts before making such comments because it is upsetting me. How many more times do I have to say that I was confused? I QUOTED JACK CHICK BY MISTAKE. I ABHOR JACK CHICK. IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE.
 
No it isn’t. Jack Chick was quoted by mistake. Please read through the posts before making such comments because it is upsetting me. How many more times do I have to say that I was confused? I QUOTED JACK CHICK BY MISTAKE. I ABHOR JACK CHICK. IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE.
Oh, ok then. My apologies.

I join you in your contempt of the works of Jack Chick 😉
 
On account of because this is “income tax weekend”, the newspapers are featuring articles and sidebars with the salaries of various Americans.

According to one of them, the Cardinal Archbishop of New York earns a salary of $18,000 per year.

Just to put things in perspective.
 
Problem is- times have changed. Once upon a time the clergy owed their belongings to the community, as well as the church and it’s furnishings. Many are the stories I have read of small villages in Africa and South America where the people willingly gave up what little they had so that the church could be beautifuly decorated and the priest could wear nice vestments at Mass and there would be worthy sacred vessels.

Today, we measure everything by the dollar.
 
On account of because this is “income tax weekend”, the newspapers are featuring articles and sidebars with the salaries of various Americans.

According to one of them, the Cardinal Archbishop of New York earns a salary of $18,000 per year.

Just to put things in perspective.
Is that the whole perspective?

Does he pay rent, or live in a really nice place?

Is that his personal allowance, above and beyond the cook, room and board, assistant, housekeeper(s), driver?, car, secretary?. Travel expenses? I once got bumped up to first class because coach overbooked, so got to sit next to Sister who travels first class when she goes to Rome for regular meetings.

Michael
 
I went to Friday prayer meeting today and the discussion was about our Bishops and their cars. The question that was raised: Why does our Bishop (and mostly all Bishops) drive a top of the range executive saloon car instead of a basic model? (He usually gets a new model every three years).

Both sides greed that having a new car every three years was acceptable, in that, the car would reasonably be expected not to break down and thus avoid the Bishop missing any of his engagements.

However, each side disagreed upon the choice of model i.e. expensive luxurious model v basic model. One side argued that you couldn’t expect the Bishop to turn up for engagements in a basic model because that it would look inappropriate for his office/post.

The other side argued that (on Palm Sunday) when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, He did so on the back of a colt at His request. He didn’t request to be carried upon a throne (Mark 11:1-11). Jesus might also have thought of which was appropriate? :ehh:
I agree, I don’t think it’s good for Bishops to be too flashy with fancy cars.
 
Children are dying of starvation in feeding centres in Niger, where 3.6m people face severe food shortages.

?🤷
LOL.

Sorry, no one takes Jack Chick seriously. He is consistantly uninformed and wrong on just about everything he talks about.

The Catholic Church puts more money and resources into helping the poor and downtrodden than any other organization on the planet.

PS. The Pope owns none of those things Chick talks about. So the Pope is probably worth more like 100,000 if you count the stuff people give him all the time. But I just saw yesterday how he auctioned his car off for Habitat for Humanity and raised something like 250,000 dollars.
 
Why not let the bishop have a good car? If someone has given to it, that’s nice. If he has used his own pay to get it, the better. Why should we treat our clergy as suspect if they have one or two luxuries? Is it even the slightest shred of our business?

Let’s quit looking for every opportunity to judge anyone, cleric or not.

Or better, we should think that perhaps this is part of God’s way of saying, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
 
This is certainly not appropriate. I mean live the life or try to, especially if you’re a religious!:rolleyes:
 
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