Bishops with flash cars

[Mt_28_19_20]

IThird, I got a kick out of the ignorance of the person who said what Bishop needs a driver and three sisters keeping his house? First of all, most Bishops are so on the road that they would be a threat to other drivers if they didn’t have drivers. My Bishop who has a driver when he leaves town so he can prepare for where he is going and sleep on his return.

Then with regard to having people care for their house? At our Bishop’s residence, he puts up Priests coming to see him, seminarians, visiting Priests from Africa coming to the Diocese to learn things like how Tribunals work and Canon Law.

I always marvel at how hard Pastors work. They are on 24/7 and 95% of what they do is outside the public eye (visiting the sick, counseling the mourning, etc.) But then when one considers what a Bishop does, I marvel at the fact that they don’t collapse inside of a month. They truly have supernatural support from the Holy Spirit.

Should I reply in kind? You think I spoke out of ignorance? And even if it was in ignorance, you got a kick out of ignorance? Interesting message.

Most bishops have an assistant, and the diocese office to arrange out of town travel, etc. Having his own driver seems excessive, in my opinion, and he could either drive or have the assistant drive, or take turns.

Three sisters to maintain a house? Even with visitors, that seems excessive as well.

And yes, pastors and bishops work very hard, as do alot of other people. 24/7? And many people would like to sleep on their way home from a business trip, or have someone drive them around during the day. Not a luxury many people have, even among many company presidents, or hosptial administrators, or department chairpersons.

Michael

 

[gvogt4]

Especially the bishop? Are they exempt from being held accountable for their choices and life style? Why worry about constructive feed back for our leaders, or would that be blind obedience? Elders/leaders who rule WELL are worthy of double honor…and worthy of his wages. If the bishops’ car is funded by parishioners, moderation would seem appropriate and respectful of those who support their Church and struggle to make ends meet.

When in Rome two years ago, I saw what seemed to be a bishop or cardinal driving by himself in a 7 series BMW, looked like a new or recent model. Currently they start at $75,000 to $122,000, plus tax. Yet why should that be surprising that some like flashy cars. Look at some of the fancy robes and hats and gloves some wear for special occasions.

1 Tim 5:17-20 “The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.”

Not much rebuking going on these days… does that mean there is not much sin by elders, or are we laity afraid of offending by correcting?

Michael

Dear Michael,
Wow! If I hadn’t checked to see how Dorothy was doing **(Dorothy, I hope this note finds you well.) **I would never had seen your post. I hadn’t seen this thread in weeks.

I stand by my remark as it was a legitimate question in the early stages of this discussion. A few lines of Scripture do not present the entire Biblical message. It would seem that including this particular Scripture, there is an implication that the aforementioned Bishop is “continuing in sin” which I would not be so certain of. I believe that I have not taken a particular side (guilty / not guilty) Holding someone “accountable for their choices and lifestyle” does not mean judging them unjustly and then gossiping about my interpretation of his/her actions. However, if I were to truly believe that someone was “in sin”, I would do my best to gently and lovingly help that person to recognize this. (It’s not our light that shines, but the reflection of Christ’s light within us.) If that did not work, then depending on the person and the circumstances, I would seek help from the next appropriate source. Rebuking does not mean getting together with a group of people and talking about someone else.
So, yes, it was difficult for me to understand how the prayer meeting went from praying to talking about someone else, and yes, especially the bishop. Dorothy, drop me a line some time. Again, I hope all is well with you.

 

[maryjk]

I can’t imagine an old guy from Boston needing a driver to get around the City of Rome! What a lazy bum! Didn’t he learn nothin while he was living in Boston?

That “lazy bum” is 76 years old.
Mt 28 19_20:

Reminds me of the elderly couples I sometimes see going to the hospital/doctor’s offices for appointments, or going to Mass, as they get out of their cars at their pace, often one helping the other. When will they learn to get a driver? Should I suggest that to my elderly relatives at the next family get together?

No, you should, if you can, drive your elderly relatives. I hope that I still care about my parents when they get to the age that driving would be dangerous. I hope that I care enough to drive them or find someone that can.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Should I reply in kind? You think I spoke out of ignorance? And even if it was in ignorance, you got a kick out of ignorance? Interesting message.

Most bishops have an assistant, and the diocese office to arrange out of town travel, etc. Having his own driver seems excessive, in my opinion, and he could either drive or have the assistant drive, or take turns.

Three sisters to maintain a house? Even with visitors, that seems excessive as well.

And yes, pastors and bishops work very hard, as do alot of other people. 24/7? And many people would like to sleep on their way home from a business trip, or have someone drive them around during the day. Not a luxury many people have, even among many company presidents, or hosptial administrators, or department chairpersons.

Michael

I get the feeling that most folks have NO IDEA what Bishops do.

For example, in a casual chat with one of my pastor-friends, he said that just prior to our chat, he was driving someone with cancer to New York for a radiation treatment. His cell phone rings; he answers the phone; it’s the Archbishop.

The Archbishop tells him to pull over and park; he needs to talk.

The problem is that another pastor had suddenly died. In order to get a replacement pastor in there, they had to juggle the assignments of several other priests. As part of the reassignment, the only way they could work out the juggling was to reassign my pastor-friend, as well. So, he had to report to his new parish the next day.

Bishops have to deal with personnel issues all day every day. They have to make parish visits all the time.

On top of that the bishops have to meet with Cardinals and, from time to time, they have to meet with the Pope, himself.

Every diocese also has a huge number of we used to call “additional duties”. One pastor I know works with the bishop on foreign mission activity. Huge responsibility. Another pastor had been involved in foreign missions also and was telling me how depressed he was getting at the reports of all the Catholic priests who were being murdered (martyred, in fact), in various overseas places.

It’s not an issue of having one personal assistant to drive for them or cook their meals.

It’s that bishops have a bizillion things that they are responsible for. Their job involves juggling ten balls in the air at one time.

It’s not all spotlights and dais dinners.

 

[jbuck919]

Dom Helder Camara, the bishop of Recife in Brazil who should in my opinion be considered for canonization but probably will not be, led the most modest life. He slept on a simple cot in a simple room and thumbed all his rides rather than driving anything at all. He wore a simple wooden pectoral cross. However, when asked whether it was wrong for (I believe this was the exact example offered) the Archbishop of Paris to wear a pectoral cross that was priceless, he responded that he could not question a bishop who had an obligation to a great patrimony.

Recently, the newest Archbishop of Boston, who was brought in amid scandal, decided to vacate the Archiepiscopal residence and live with his Capuchin brethren. Did he do the right thing? In my opinion, no. Ordinary working class Catholics, mostly Irish in those days, sweat blood to make it possible for their bishop, the only symbol they had of hope for social status, to live in relative luxury. It is a dishonor to the great US tradition of common laborers and poor immigrants building a great church to turn one’s back on that testimony

The situation is made worse by the fact that once a prelate renounces something (as for instance Paul VI renounced the papal tiara which had been a gift from the people of Milan), it is impossible for any successor to take it up without appearing foolishly egotistical. Let’s be thankful that at least Vatican City has not been made a public trust out of some misguided sense of modesty.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Bishops have to deal with personnel issues all day every day. They have to make parish visits all the time.

On top of that the bishops have to meet with Cardinals and, from time to time, they have to meet with the Pope, himself.

Every diocese also has a huge number of we used to call “additional duties”. One pastor I know works with the bishop on foreign mission activity. Huge responsibility. Another pastor had been involved in foreign missions also and was telling me how depressed he was getting at the reports of all the Catholic priests who were being murdered (martyred, in fact), in various overseas places.

It’s not an issue of having one personal assistant to drive for them or cook their meals.

It’s that bishops have a bizillion things that they are responsible for. Their job involves juggling ten balls in the air at one time.

It’s not all spotlights and dais dinners.

Please, lots of people, many of whom are married with the responsibility of being good spouses and parents as well are in positions of authority and have to juggle many tasks and decisions. One person I know, it is incredible what this person has to deal with. They have a secretary to help, but not a house keeper or personal driver. Gives talks around the world, teaches locally, pulbishes bench research prolifically, oversees a bench research lab, the training of medical students, residents, and fellows, guides colleagues in their careers, and oversees intensive care areas in two hospitals, dealing with personel of all sorts. And yes, there are direct life and death decisions and consequences of performing the job well They also have juggled being a spouse and parent. They are not young, yet do not need a driver or one, or three house managers. If someone asked them to come help in the middle of the night, they would be there. And they would do it without a personal driver. Let us not lose focus, we are hear to love and serve one another, to consider others better than ourselves. We are not hear to be driven around and drive fancy cars and have three people manage our households.

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Recently, the newest Archbishop of Boston, who was brought in amid scandal, decided to vacate the Archiepiscopal residence and live with his Capuchin brethren. Did he do the right thing? In my opinion, no. Ordinary working class Catholics, mostly Irish in those days, sweat blood to make it possible for their bishop, the only symbol they had of hope for social status, to live in relative luxury. It is a dishonor to the great US tradition of common laborers and poor immigrants building a great church to turn one’s back on that testimony

The situation is made worse by the fact that once a prelate renounces something (as for instance Paul VI renounced the papal tiara which had been a gift from the people of Milan), it is impossible for any successor to take it up without appearing foolishly egotistical. Let’s be thankful that at least Vatican City has not been made a public trust out of some misguided sense of modesty.

Wow! Let’s look at that again:
“Ordinary working class Catholics, mostly Irish in those days, sweat blood to make it possible for their bishop, the only symbol they had of hope for social status, to live in relative luxury.”

So ordinary working class Catholics are to make it possible for their bishop to live in relative luxury?

The bishop is the only symbol they have of hope for social status?

“It is a dishonor to the great US tradition of common laborers and poor immigrants building a great church to turn one’s back on that testimony”

 Please explain how a bishop living in humble manner dishonors those who built a great church? Who do we think the Church is for? The bishop? For us to feel good and proud? Or to honor God? In my opinion, it is a dishonor to the "common laborers and poor immigrants" to use their offering of hard work and offerings for Church leaders to live in relative luxury that many will never experience. A great dishonor is all the money and Church property, offered by all the hard work of those you think will be dishonored if the bishop turns his back on relative luxury, that is being spent due to the molestation scandal. That is the great dishonor. How many millions of dollars, now much Church propertly being sold, because the Church, all Catholics, were dishonored by those who could not keep there pants on and molested children? And leadership did not know how to deal with this? Absurd. A man as described in 1 Tim 3 would probably know how to deal with such situations, with a holy anger! And he probably wouldn't be giving the person an assignment in Rome with a $5,000 a month stipend for a driver, and two or three sisters to manage his household! So, aren't we the holy ones?

Michael

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I would like (really) if every one here making ‘thumbs down’ decisions on those ‘flashy’ bishops and (without having any personal knowledge of what the bishops have to do, or personal knowledge of who ‘paid’ for a car, etc.) had, for a day, to ‘step into’ that bishop’s shoes.

Dare I say, the ‘enlightenment’ that would come about would be DAMASCENE (IOW, like that of St. Paul being blinded).

All the armchair ‘bishops’ and the “ostentation” police (naming no names here, nothing personal ) should know exactly what they are criticizing before they do so. Especially when they proceed, in their merry fashion, to extrapolate their own ‘interpretations’ of what is ‘too much’, or how somebody ‘doesn’t need this’ not just onto one person, but pretty much onto everybody (themselves excepted; once again, I don’t see any of the “too-muchers” giving up their computers ‘for the poor’).

God knows I have my faults. But I’ll say this: I would much rather be judged in the end as having erred ‘too much’ on the side of trust, when it comes to assessing the motives and the ‘trappings’ of a human being. . .than of having erred ‘too much’ on the side of distrust, when it comes to assessing the motives and the "trappings’ of a human being.

IOW–I would rather be found to have been ‘wrong’ about the assessment of somebody’s ‘personal Christian behavior’ by having them be ‘worse’ than I had thought, than be found to have been ‘wrong’ by having them be ‘better’ than I had thought.

Because in the first case, I am looking for Christ in them; whereas in the second, I’m really looking for the ‘lack of Christ’ in them.

Notice how few say, “Well, maybe it’s true–proven true–that Bishop X is driving a ‘more expensive’ car than is ‘absolutely necessary’–but isn’t that between the Bishop and God, and perhaps the Bishop ‘makes up’ for this vanity with mortifications elsewhere?”

No, instead it’s, “All bishops who drive cars that I think are ‘too much’ are unChristian, hypocritical, probably guilty of thousands of other faults, drive away ‘real Christians’, and do so purely and simply for their own personal power and pleasure.”

Gentle questions about whether people can truly know the heart of another, or all the facts about a case, are met with derision at best, and more and more strident accusations, going on from a Bishop to indictment of the entire Catholic faith.

Is this what we want to be discussing on Judgment Day–because, for sure, we will be. Do we want to be apologizing to the Bishop for thinking that he was ‘better’ than he was. . .or for thinking that he was ‘worse’ than he was? I know which I would rather be ‘guilty’ of!

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

I would like (really) if every one here making ‘thumbs down’ decisions on those ‘flashy’ bishops and (without having any personal knowledge of what the bishops have to do, or personal knowledge of who ‘paid’ for a car, etc.) had, for a day, to ‘step into’ that bishop’s shoes.

Dare I say, the ‘enlightenment’ that would come about would be DAMASCENE (IOW, like that of St. Paul being blinded).

All the armchair ‘bishops’ and the “ostentation” police (naming no names here, nothing personal ) should know exactly what they are criticizing before they do so. Especially when they proceed, in their merry fashion, to extrapolate their own ‘interpretations’ of what is ‘too much’, or how somebody ‘doesn’t need this’ not just onto one person, but pretty much onto everybody (themselves excepted; once again, I don’t see any of the “too-muchers” giving up their computers ‘for the poor’).

God knows I have my faults. But I’ll say this: I would much rather be judged in the end as having erred ‘too much’ on the side of trust, when it comes to assessing the motives and the ‘trappings’ of a human being. . .than of having erred ‘too much’ on the side of distrust, when it comes to assessing the motives and the "trappings’ of a human being.

IOW–I would rather be found to have been ‘wrong’ about the assessment of somebody’s ‘personal Christian behavior’ by having them be ‘worse’ than I had thought, than be found to have been ‘wrong’ by having them be ‘better’ than I had thought.

Because in the first case, I am looking for Christ in them; whereas in the second, I’m really looking for the ‘lack of Christ’ in them.

Notice how few say, “Well, maybe it’s true–proven true–that Bishop X is driving a ‘more expensive’ car than is ‘absolutely necessary’–but isn’t that between the Bishop and God, and perhaps the Bishop ‘makes up’ for this vanity with mortifications elsewhere?”

No, instead it’s, “All bishops who drive cars that I think are ‘too much’ are unChristian, hypocritical, probably guilty of thousands of other faults, drive away ‘real Christians’, and do so purely and simply for their own personal power and pleasure.”

I for one have thumbs down on bishops driving luxury cars/flashy cars. That does not mean I judge them as unChristian, or not have a diffiult task. We all have areas we could be more modest in, and live in less luxury. I struggle with that all the time, and have much improvement to make. That does not mean I do not consider myself to be Christian by the grace of God.

Saying one thinks a bishop should not be driving a fancy car is also not necessarily saying we know the heart of the other, although yes that is a danger to be avoided. I have the same opinion for all Catholics concerning fancy cars. That does not mean I made assumptions about their circumstances or their heart, or that I would consider them unChristian. They may very well be living their vocation in a way that would be a good example for myself.

Finaally, if we do not hold our leaders accountable, and encourage them, as we should each other, in kindness and gentlleness, then are we allowing the light to dim before those who do not know Jesus Christ?

As far as suggesting those who thumbed down flashy cars for bishops “had, for a day, to ‘step into’ that bishop’s shoes.”
Good idea.
And, how about if the bishops wall for a day, step into the shoes of the parishoner who drives to the factory, works at tedious, repetitive labor all day, with timed 15 minute breaks, with coworks who may or may not give them common respect, (not getting glances of respect or words of encouragment by those who have never met the person before based on the bishops’ attire they are wearing), drive home to a spouse and children who may or may not love and respect them as would be hoped for, and worries about having enough money if the car breaks down, or to pay the insurance, (though they can’t afford a driver, so there’s one expense thankfully they do not have to worry about.) Then on Sunday, they get a look from others when they get there late for one reason or another, they hear about the multimillion dollars being paid for the sexual abuse by Church leaders, and they still reach into their pockets and give what they can when the collection comes by, and the again at the second collection, which is to fund maybe retired/aging priests who somehow did not know what was going on over the years.

Michael

 

[dorothy_smith]

"The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The Pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars.

chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp

Children are dying of starvation in feeding centres in Niger, where 3.6m people face severe food shortages.

?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Dorothy, Dorothy, Dorothy. . .

Citing Jack Chick as an authority???

No wonder you’re confused. . .

 

[az_4_faith]

Holy Cow, Jack Chick publications???

That’s a resource I’d never thought I’d see a Catholic use against the Church on this website.

Wow.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Mr. Chick claims this:

The Pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars

Now we read here:
from www.vatican.va

TESTAMENT OF THE HOLY FATHER
JOHN PAUL II

Totus Tuus ego sum

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen.

“Watch, therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming” (Mt 24: 42) - these words remind me of the last call that will come at whatever time the Lord desires. I want to follow Him and I want all that is part of my earthly life to prepare me for this moment. I do not know when it will come but I place this moment, like all other things, in the hands of the Mother of my Master: Totus Tuus. In these same motherly hands I leave everything and Everyone with whom my life and my vocation have brought me into contact. In these Hands I above all leave the Church, and also my Nation and all humankind. I thank everyone. I ask forgiveness of everyone. I also ask for prayers, so that God’s Mercy may prove greater than my own weakness and unworthiness.

During the spiritual exercises I reread the Testament of the Holy Father Paul VI. It was reading it that gave me the incentive to write this Testament.

I leave no possessions of which it will be necessary to dispose. As for the things I use every day, I ask that they be distributed as seems appropriate. Let my personal notes be burned. I ask that Fr Stanis³aw see to this, and I thank him for his help and collaboration, so understanding for so many years. On the other hand, I leave all my other “thank yous” in my heart before God Himself, because it is difficult to express them.

With regard to my funeral, I repeat the instructions that were given by the Holy Father Paul VI (here a note in the margin says: burial in the ground and not in a sarcophagus, 13 March 1992). Let the College of Cardinals and my Fellow Citizens decide on the place.

“apud Dominum misericordia
et copiosa apud Eum redemptio”

John Paul PP. II

So much for the ‘richest man’, ‘worth billions’. . . eh?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Unbelievable but true. . .people will write things which can be disproven in a matter of seconds by reputable authorities, and yet be citied as ‘authorities’ themselves. . .

 

[dorothy_smith]

Dorothy, Dorothy, Dorothy. . .

Citing Jack Chick as an authority???

No wonder you’re confused. . .

OMG I didn’t realise it was Jack Chick. I’ve just taken my Olanzapine an hour a go and I am tired and confused. I abhor Jack Chick! I need to go to bed. Good night and God Bless.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Children are dying of starvation in feeding centres in Niger, where 3.6m people face severe food shortages.

?

Niger has periodic droughts which have caused problems for agriculture in the past, and in particular for raising livestock, which is the principal agricultural commodity.

The people of the Niger region have always been nomadic, but since independence, national borders have interfered with traditional patterns of movement. They used to be able to migrate around to where there was water and take their herds with them. But now the people are stuck. Some people blame the French for the way the region was carved up and for the lack of infrastructure. And the French do control the uranium mine.

We need to see how the other countries in the region are doing. Burkina Fasso, for example. Or northern Benin. Or Chad.

In addition, the governments of Niger have been highly unstable for several decades, which makes economic life tenuous.

Left without government interference, the people would probably do alright, but they are blocked by the government.

When you add to the mix the fact that the country is totally landlocked and that importing fuel is very expensive, then one wonders how they survive at all.

The principal assets of the country are the water in the Niger River and in Lake Chad which allow local irrigated agriculture, and of course, the now-famous uranium.

One wonders why they don’t have a nuclear power reactor.

[Does the president of Niger still have an air conditioned hangar for the presidential airplane??]

 

[maryjk]

Quote:
"The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The Pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars.

chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp
Children are dying of starvation in feeding centres in Niger, where 3.6m people face severe food shortages.

?

dorothy_smith:

OMG I didn’t realise it was Jack Chick. I’ve just taken my Olanzapine an hour a go and I am tired and confused. I abhor Jack Chick! I need to go to bed. Good night and God Bless.

The web site kinda gives it away.

 

[dorothy_smith]

The web site kinda gives it away.

If you knew how badly mental illness affected people’s concentration and awareness then you’d probably be a bit more sympathetic.

I’m definitely off to bed now. God Bless

 

[TimOliv]

I’d like to remind people that many Dioceses lease cars so that they can trade them in every few years. However, there are Bishops who own new cars.

I’d like to remind people also that Bishops are paid, just like any Diocesan Priest. If a Bishop, Priest or Deacon chooses to spend his wages on a nice car, that is his choice. Our Bishop spent his personal income on a small aircraft because he is a pilot. Why are we focusing so much on the personal spending habits of clergy?

They are not bound by a vow of poverty and they receive income. Since they are giving their life to the church, I think maybe the least we can do is not complain when they buy something.

 

[maryjk]

If you knew how badly mental illness affected people’s concentration and awareness then you’d probably be a bit more sympathetic.

I’m definitely off to bed now. God Bless

It must effect your concentration, you didn’t log off for another 20 minutes.

I wouldn’t want to minimize anyone’s illness, mental or physical. But it seems that you have had no problem concentrating when gossiping about the Bishop or quoting Jack Chick. There only seems to be a problem when you get called on it.