Bishops with flash cars

[Jerry_Mitchner]

What do you think Jesus meant when He said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:24. Similar verses are in Mark 10:25 and Luke 18:25).

Have heard unsupported theory that the original text said, “It is easier to pass a rope through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” But somehow the original Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek word for “rope” got accidentally changed to "camel’ by a transcription error. Does anyone know these ancient languages well enough to tell if/how this could have happened?

Anyways, all the souls in purgatory are blessed with a deep spirit of poverty so they can enter heaven. The rich man who dies becomes poor in purgatory before entering heaven. Maybe? Huh?:juggle:

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Could not resist. Please see link below.
lolcars.com/images_htm/donkey-car.php

ps - “how does the prayer meeting” turn into worrying about someone else’s posessions, especially the bishop? :juggle:

Especially the bishop? Are they exempt from being held accountable for their choices and life style? Why worry about constructive feed back for our leaders, or would that be blind obedience? Elders/leaders who rule WELL are worthy of double honor…and worthy of his wages. If the bishops’ car is funded by parishioners, moderation would seem appropriate and respectful of those who support their Church and struggle to make ends meet.

When in Rome two years ago, I saw what seemed to be a bishop or cardinal driving by himself in a 7 series BMW, looked like a new or recent model. Currently they start at $75,000 to $122,000, plus tax. Yet why should that be surprising that some like flashy cars. Look at some of the fancy robes and hats and gloves some wear for special occasions.

1 Tim 5:17-20 “The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.”

Not much rebuking going on these days… does that mean there is not much sin by elders, or are we laity afraid of offending by correcting?

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

The Bishop has two options of choosing a new car that will enable him to do his work:

1, New and reliable model of car that costs £8,000

2, New and reliable model of car that costs £50,000

By my understanding of the teachings of Jesus is that I should choose option 1.

Hello Dorothy,

I've enjoyed reading your posts. Here is a quote from an article written by Leon J Suprenant, president of Catholics Unitied for the Faith:
"Still, it’s a bit of an overstatement to assert that this is a cushy position, let alone a “reward” or significant personal honor. Cardinal Law does receive a monthly stipend of $5,000, which Vatican correspondent John Allen notes must cover not only his personal expenses, but also the costs of a car and driver as well as the living expenses of two or three religious sisters who will run his household."

Michael

 

[Caesar]

Hello Dorothy,

I've enjoyed reading your posts. Here is a quote from an article written by Leon J Suprenant, president of Catholics Unitied for the Faith:
"Still, it’s a bit of an overstatement to assert that this is a cushy position, let alone a “reward” or significant personal honor. Cardinal Law does receive a monthly stipend of $5,000, which Vatican correspondent John Allen notes must cover not only his personal expenses, but also the costs of a car and driver as well as the living expenses of two or three religious sisters who will run his household."

Michael

I’m rather surprised that the Cardinal could live off of that.

Some Bshops can, by choice, live an austere life- like Cardinal Law is doing, somewhat. But we should in no way comdemn those who merely live according to the rights of their most holy offices.

 

[Al_Masetti]

It’s a little astonishing that folks would be suspicious about other folks’ living expenses without having actual numbers.

I was once invited to lunch by a priest-friend and he was “upset” because I wouldn’t let him pick up the check. Someone had given him a gift of one of those American Express gift cards and he wanted to use it. I gathered that no one would let him pay for anything.

One priest drove around in a Mercedes. A gift from a parishioner. When one of our pastors retired, everyone chipped in to buy him a car. They collected so much money that at the “unveiling”, they gave him the keys to a glitzy red Cadillac. He almost passed out from shock.

When a pastor said with insistence that he wanted to pay off a long-standing parish debt, they collected so much money from all over the parish, in small amounts, that there was enough IN ONE YEAR to retire the debt, AND enough left over to renovate the basement of the church into meeting rooms AND still enough to install a handicap elevator.

A few years ago, there was a fire in our rectory while some contractors were doing electrical upgrades. The kitchen was out of action for a couple of months. Literally within seconds, the priests were deluged with open charge accounts at every restaurant in town. Parishioners responded in every way possible, and they simply contacted restaurant owners and told them to let the priests sign for their meals and send the bills to the donors.

At another parish, when the pastor wanted to fix up the church which was showing a decades of wear, people came out of nowhere to BUILD A NEW CHURCH. I mean like, marble from Italy … the same quarry as the Pieta! All donated.

People are very generous.

 

[Caesar]

It’s a little astonishing that folks would be suspicious about other folks’ living expenses without having actual numbers.

I was once invited to lunch by a priest-friend and he was “upset” because I wouldn’t let him pick up the check. Someone had given him a gift of one of those American Express gift cards and he wanted to use it. I gathered that no one would let him pay for anything.

One priest drove around in a Mercedes. A gift from a parishioner. When one of our pastors retired, everyone chipped in to buy him a car. They collected so much money that at the “unveiling”, they gave him the keys to a glitzy red Cadillac. He almost passed out from shock.

When a pastor said with insistence that he wanted to pay off a long-standing parish debt, they collected so much money from all over the parish, in small amounts, that there was enough IN ONE YEAR to retire the debt, AND enough left over to renovate the basement of the church into meeting rooms AND still enough to install a handicap elevator.

A few years ago, there was a fire in our rectory while some contractors were doing electrical upgrades. The kitchen was out of action for a couple of months. Literally within seconds, the priests were deluged with open charge accounts at every restaurant in town. Parishioners responded in every way possible, and they simply contacted restaurant owners and told them to let the priests sign for their meals and send the bills to the donors.

At another parish, when the pastor wanted to fix up the church which was showing a decades of wear, people came out of nowhere to BUILD A NEW CHURCH. I mean like, marble from Italy … the same quarry as the Pieta! All donated.

People are very generous.

I know a parish in the downtown area of my city where the priests recieve free tickets to almost all the events at a nearby concert hall, not to mention free dinners at some very expensive restaurants.

My mother used as a secretary at a Portugese church in Portugese section of town. The priests there never bought groceries- the local bakery sent over supplies of bread every week, the butchers sent meats, and all the old widows took it as their duty to bring over an abundance of meals. When the priest’s car broke down, a mechanic down the street fixed it free of charge, and nearby dealership made him a gift of a new one- not to mention all the people who offered to drive him or let him have the use of their own vehicles. Once a storm damaged the church and part of the rectory- the next day a large group of men showed up with tools and supplies to repair the damage, and of course all their wives and the old widows came over to feed them . But the trick is- all of this was their offertory donations!

 

[Aramis]

Eye of the Needle is the name of one of Jerusalem’s gates. Not tall enough for a laden camel to walk upright through.

Camel fits. It isn’t impossible, just quite difficult. I’ve seen it demonstrated.

 

[az_4_faith]

I know a parish in the downtown area of my city where the priests recieve free tickets to almost all the events at a nearby concert hall, not to mention free dinners at some very expensive restaurants.

My mother used as a secretary at a Portugese church in Portugese section of town. The priests there never bought groceries- the local bakery sent over supplies of bread every week, the butchers sent meats, and all the old widows took it as their duty to bring over an abundance of meals. When the priest’s car broke down, a mechanic down the street fixed it free of charge, and nearby dealership made him a gift of a new one- not to mention all the people who offered to drive him or let him have the use of their own vehicles. Once a storm damaged the church and part of the rectory- the next day a large group of men showed up with tools and supplies to repair the damage, and of course all their wives and the old widows came over to feed them . But the trick is- all of this was their offertory donations!

This is the Gospel in action.

Jesus told the disciples to go without a second tunic, to take nothing on their journey to evangelize, because He knew that the disciples would be provided for, that they should trust in His Providence.

He didn’t put any conditions on what they were allowed to accept as gifts, only to trust that they would have what they need.

So, okay, some of today’s gifts may be little more extravagent than some tastes. But most are gifts given freely and I’m not going to question why the bishops accept them, cause I don’t know the details behind them and I’m not gonna make judgments without those details.

Also, someone told me once that the “pass through the eye of the needle/camel story” was based on the fact that most of the ancient cities had fortress walls surrounding them for protection. The fortress walls had huge gates that were opened fairly liberally throughout the day, but once nightfall came they were locked up tight. Stragglers that needed to enter the city after the gates were locked were required to pass through a much smaller side door or risk staying outside unprotected all night. The smaller door, sometimes compared to the “eye of a needle”, was designed for foot travelers, so if one were traveling with a camel loaded with goods, it could be quite difficult to squeeze the camel through the gate without the inconvenience of unloading everything first that the camel was carrying - hence, the rich man’s camel would be difficult to pass or squeeze through the gate or the “eye of the needle”. Sometimes the rich man would have to leave his camel behind to enter.

Now, I don’t know if that story (or parable) is really true, but the moral of the story was that the task wasn’t impossible by any means, just more of a challenge.

I sure helps explain that having material goods isn’t necessarily sinful, it’s what you do with your possessions that matters more.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

I’m rather surprised that the Cardinal could live off of that.

Some Bshops can, by choice, live an austere life- like Cardinal Law is doing, somewhat. But we should in no way comdemn those who merely live according to the rights of their most holy offices.

If he is not paying rent, who with a free place to stay could not live off 5,000 per month? Who needs two or three sisters to manage their household, and a driver?

 

[johnnyjoe]

If he is not paying rent, who with a free place to stay could not live off 5,000 per month? Who needs two or three sisters to manage their household, and a driver?

I can’t imagine an old guy from Boston needing a driver to get around the City of Rome! What a lazy bum! Didn’t he learn nothin while he was living in Boston?

 

[johnnyjoe]

A short story about our bishop.

He came here from another city driving a 6 year old compact car.

An old and wise Monsignor here got together with a car dealer and a few men of means and got our new bishop a Black Toyota Camry - maybe not a “luxury” car today, but darned close.

The old Monsignor pulled up to the house (in a Santa hat) and knocked on the door. When the bishop came out and saw the gift, his first response was, “I am not worthy of such a gift!”. The old Monsignor said, “Of course you aren’t, but your office is, and so our new bishop should have a car as dignified as his office.” Our humble bishop accepted the car as a sign of his flock’s respect and honor for his office.

It is the right response when evaluating the balance between material ostentaiousness, and materials that exibit a respect for the office being held.

The bishop donated his car to the Diocese, and it is being used for visiting mission priests (the midwest in America is now mission territory, you know).

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

I can’t imagine an old guy from Boston needing a driver to get around the City of Rome! What a lazy bum! Didn’t he learn nothin while he was living in Boston?

Reminds me of the elderly couples I sometimes see going to the hospital/doctor’s offices for appointments, or going to Mass, as they get out of their cars at their pace, often one helping the other. When will they learn to get a driver? Should I suggest that to my elderly relatives at the next family get together?

As far as him learning while in Boston, perhaps if he had learned a little more along the way he would still be living in Boston?

Michael

 

[dorothy_smith]

I listened to the priests and monsignor over the Easter period at the end of each Mass telling the congregation that their gifts and donations will be much appreciated. (hmm… they get some big cash gifts - good luck to em).

One of the priests even told a sad tale of how he has to drive around in an old car (his car is four years old) before smiling pitifully at the congreation saying ‘Well I can always dream of owning a nice sporty BMW like my accountant friend.’

I didn’t know what to think? Were we supposed to feel sorry for him? The clergy don’t do too bad - they don’t seem to want for anything really. I am a Catholic and am trying not to criticize but sometimes I can’t help doing so when I hear people and in particular the clergy themselves saying how hard up they are.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Then for all of you who would denounce a Bishop who merely lives according to the rights his most holy office allows him, please go and evict the Holy Father from the Apostolic Palace, the Lateran Palace, Castel Gandalfo, and the numerous other Papal residences. Please tell the Vicar of Christ that to have Palaces and servants and guards and a massive personal library is a grave evil, and then direct him to a cardboard box.

Discussing, encouraging, correcting, rebuking when done out of love and concern for the faith of the community, is proper. Let’s not jumping to calling this denouncing. If an aspect of my life style it thought to be extravegant by some, and it is mentioned, why would I assume I am being denounced? Because I have a fault? We all have faults. And since teachers will be held to a higher standard, shouldn’t our leaders WANT encouragement and correction?

“Cardboard box”? Oh how extreme!

All those palaces, never really thought about how many there were. But now that you mention it, does seem a bit excessive.

What did Paul do when someone tried to bow to him?

The car question was one thing. Now you bring up palaces, servants, and a massive personal library, and all those pictures of fancy ornate clothing and hats and gloves you provided links for. Why not do away with all the fancy clothing? Or would that take away attention from individuals and their clothing?

Michael

 

[SoulRebel777]

Bishops in america , most of them not all, need to get on there hands and knees and repent for there cover ups and there approval of the nab footnotes which will confuse many and help them lose there faith.

Most of these bishops dont deserve to be bishops, We need to get men like Scoot Hahn in there, Tim Staples, Karl Keating, Father Dubay, Father Corapi, NotWorthy, John Hiner, Marco Fallon in as Bishops.

We got the wrong men as Bishops

 

[dorothy_smith]

Hello Dorothy,

I've enjoyed reading your posts.l

Hello Michael. It is nice to hear a friendly voice. I’ve also enjoyed reading your posts. They make a lot sense.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Bishops in america , most of them not all, need to get on there hands and knees and repent for there cover ups and there approval of the nab footnotes which will confuse many and help them lose there faith.

Most of these bishops dont deserve to be bishops, We need to get men like Scoot Hahn in there, Tim Staples, Karl Keating, Father Dubay, Father Corapi, NotWorthy, John Hiner, Marco Fallon in as Bishops.

We got the wrong men as Bishops

I wonder what Scott Hahn’s wife thinks about the idea that he was called to be a Priest/Bishop and not father/husband?

But to the point of this thread, much has been made about how some think that Bishops shouldn’t have anything but the simplest of accommodations.

First of all, many have pointed out that Bishops have these things becuase of the generosity of the flock out of respect, honor and dignity of the office. They weren’t given these things because they were great guys.

Second, St. Francis said that ascetisism (spelling is wrong I know) for its own purpose is as sinful as its opposite (pursuit of earthly goods). Every single example I have ever seen of “luxury” in a Priest life is the product of a gift from the flock. Why are so many willing to take Judas view that “this oil could be used for the poor?”

Third, I got a kick out of the ignorance of the person who said what Bishop needs a driver and three sisters keeping his house? First of all, most Bishops are so on the road that they would be a threat to other drivers if they didn’t have drivers. My Bishop who has a driver when he leaves town so he can prepare for where he is going and sleep on his return.

Then with regard to having people care for their house? At our Bishop’s residence, he puts up Priests coming to see him, seminarians, visiting Priests from Africa coming to the Diocese to learn things like how Tribunals work and Canon Law.

I always marvel at how hard Pastors work. They are on 24/7 and 95% of what they do is outside the public eye (visiting the sick, counseling the mourning, etc.) But then when one considers what a Bishop does, I marvel at the fact that they don’t collapse inside of a month. They truly have supernatural support from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, let’s see. Taking aside the fact that the ‘fancy clothing’ etc. are gifts, well, one could argue that once a person gives a gift, it becomes the ‘property’ of the giver.

But. . .remember our great John Paul II? He had things like the Popemobile–but, oops, it didn’t really ‘belong’ to him.

Same with the Vatican. The library, the books, even the ‘fancy clothing’–these don’t belong to “Joseph Ratzinger” anymore than they belonged to Karol Woltya, do they? :dts:

Who ‘owns’ the “wealth” like the Sistine Chapel? Not the Pope, not the cardinals or the bishops or the priests. These things are held in trust for ‘us’, for all humanity. Those things to be used, the symbols of the office of ‘priest’ (or bishop, cardinal, Pope) are not personal property.

So what do they do? :newidea: Obviously they could ‘auction off’ things like clothing. . .how much for a tiara? Or a cloak? But after that it’s a little hairier. Are you going to ask that just because the chalice at St. Peter’s is made of gold that it be sold–you know, you’re still going to need a chalice for the Mass. And even if you get a ‘plain’ metal vessel, in another couple of hundred years, even the ‘plain’ vessel is going to have ‘worth’ for its ‘antique’ value. And if you keep on jettisoning the vessels say every 10 years or so, so they won’t ‘accumulate value’, you’re being wasteful. :ehh:

And once the things are sold (the few things that could be sold that is), they’re done. How do you decide how ‘poor’ somebody should be to benefit by the money raised? How do you GET the money to them if they are in places like Iraq, or Pakistan, or Korea, for example? How about the ‘not so poor?’ What of the person who makes a fraction of a cent more than the cut off?

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who focus so much on outward appearance and are the first to criticize ‘wealth’ are usually themselves more than comfortable. Their ‘generosity’ often seems to extend only to making people free of ‘other people’s goods.’ uch:

Whereas the people who really are poor in worldly goods seem to focus much less on outward appearance. They themselves are the most generous people. Think of the widow and her mite.

I’ll just bet that somewhere somebody was muttering, “a fraction of a coin? She thinks that’s a gift? What a cheapskate. I gave 10 times that. Why are people so cheap? She must be saving her money for frivilous luxuries or she’d be able to make a decent tithe for God.”

I have a little challenge for all the people here.
If you think your bishop, priest, boss, mother-in-law, I don’t care who, is living ‘too large’. . .tell them so. Now. Right now. After all, it’s important enough for you to come on here and let us know how unChristian they are, how they’re driving people away from the Church, how they’re displeasing Jesus. It would be the loving thing to do, wouldn’t it, to let them know???

Then go sell what you have, give to the poor. . .and since you won’t have your computer, send a snail mail to Catholic Answers and put the URL address of this thread on it so we’ll know that you aren’t just ‘talking the talk.’

 

[az_4_faith]

Well, let’s see. Taking aside the fact that the ‘fancy clothing’ etc. are gifts, well, one could argue that once a person gives a gift, it becomes the ‘property’ of the giver.

But. . .remember our great John Paul II? He had things like the Popemobile–but, oops, it didn’t really ‘belong’ to him.

Same with the Vatican. The library, the books, even the ‘fancy clothing’–these don’t belong to “Joseph Ratzinger” anymore than they belonged to Karol Woltya, do they? :dts:

Who ‘owns’ the “wealth” like the Sistine Chapel? Not the Pope, not the cardinals or the bishops or the priests. These things are held in trust for ‘us’, for all humanity. Those things to be used, the symbols of the office of ‘priest’ (or bishop, cardinal, Pope) are not personal property.

So what do they do? :newidea: Obviously they could ‘auction off’ things like clothing. . .how much for a tiara? Or a cloak? But after that it’s a little hairier. Are you going to ask that just because the chalice at St. Peter’s is made of gold that it be sold–you know, you’re still going to need a chalice for the Mass. And even if you get a ‘plain’ metal vessel, in another couple of hundred years, even the ‘plain’ vessel is going to have ‘worth’ for its ‘antique’ value. And if you keep on jettisoning the vessels say every 10 years or so, so they won’t ‘accumulate value’, you’re being wasteful. :ehh:

And once the things are sold (the few things that could be sold that is), they’re done. How do you decide how ‘poor’ somebody should be to benefit by the money raised? How do you GET the money to them if they are in places like Iraq, or Pakistan, or Korea, for example? How about the ‘not so poor?’ What of the person who makes a fraction of a cent more than the cut off?

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who focus so much on outward appearance and are the first to criticize ‘wealth’ are usually themselves more than comfortable. Their ‘generosity’ often seems to extend only to making people free of ‘other people’s goods.’ uch:

Whereas the people who really are poor in worldly goods seem to focus much less on outward appearance. They themselves are the most generous people. Think of the widow and her mite.

I’ll just bet that somewhere somebody was muttering, “a fraction of a coin? She thinks that’s a gift? What a cheapskate. I gave 10 times that. Why are people so cheap? She must be saving her money for frivilous luxuries or she’d be able to make a decent tithe for God.”

I have a little challenge for all the people here.
If you think your bishop, priest, boss, mother-in-law, I don’t care who, is living ‘too large’. . .tell them so. Now. Right now. After all, it’s important enough for you to come on here and let us know how unChristian they are, how they’re driving people away from the Church, how they’re displeasing Jesus. It would be the loving thing to do, wouldn’t it, to let them know???

Then go sell what you have, give to the poor. . .and since you won’t have your computer, send a snail mail to Catholic Answers and put the URL address of this thread on it so we’ll know that you aren’t just ‘talking the talk.’

Amen!

 

[dorothy_smith]

Hello Tantum ergo

One more thing though that I can’t resist saying ’ the Bishops and Cardinals whilst dining with the rich in swanky restaurants that we will probably never be in or allowed in during our lives probably discuss the very same things that you’ve mentioned