Black and LDS

[scipio337]

Can you explain that?

Didn’t he claim to be a descendent of Ephriam, and the “righteous branch” and “choice seer” of Joseph’s lineage? 2 Nephi 3:5-7

Ephraim was the son of Joseph and Asenath, an Egyptian woman. According to the Book of Abraham, the Egyptians are the seed of Cain through Ham, and were cursed to not having the “priesthood”.
Book of Abraham 1:20-27:

20 Behold, Potiphar’s Hill was in the land of Ur, of Chaldea. And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood. 21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth. 22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land. 23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden; 24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land. 25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal. 26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood. 27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry

Asneath, according to Genesis, was an Egyptian, and daughter of the high priest of Heliopolis (center for Egyptian sun-god worship)

Gen 41:45-50

Pharaoh also bestowed the name of Zaphnath-paneah on Joseph, and he gave him in marriage Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera, priest of Heliopolis.

Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh, king of Egypt. After Joseph left Pharaoh’s presence, he traveled throughout the land of Egypt.

During the seven years of plenty, when the land produced abundant crops,

he husbanded all the food of these years of plenty that the land of Egypt was enjoying and stored it in the towns, placing in each town the crops of the fields around it.

Joseph garnered grain in quantities like the sands of the sea, so vast that at last he stopped measuring it, for it was beyond measure.

Before the famine years set in, Joseph became the father of two sons, borne to him by Asenath, daughter of Potiphera, priest of Heliopolis.

He named his first-born Manasseh, meaning, “God has made me forget entirely the sufferings I endured at the hands of my family”;

and the second he named Ephraim, meaning, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

An Egyptian, being the line of Ham, wouldn’t be eligible for the priesthood, and therefore, Joseph’s decendents through Ephriam or Manasseh (supposedly including Joseph Smith, Jr) would also be ineligible, prior to 1978. I’ve had LDS argue that the birthright is passed through the father, not the mother, and then one only has to wonder why the pre 1978 priesthood ban didn’t just have people born of a black father stated.

By their own doctrine, Joseph Smith wasn’t eligible for the LDS “priesthood” until 1978.

I also have a few quotes from Hugh Nibley regarding Pharoh, and from Joseph Fielding Smith regarding the curse of Ham, Abraham, etc, but I usually don’t get that far, getting brushed off as an “anti”.

 

[NewSeeker]

“Theosophists for instance will preach an obviously attractive idea like reincarnation; but if we wait for its logical results, they are spiritual superciliousness and the cruelty of caste. For if a man is a beggar by his own pre-natal sins, people will tend to despise the beggar.”

Sound familiar? G.K. Chesterton made this statement regarding Hinduism, but it applies just as well to Mormon prophets’ quasi-reincarnational teachings about our status in this life and its determination based on our deeds in the pre-earth life. It’s not surprising, given this doctrine, that many Mormons (including nearly all Mormon prophets) held racist views about blacks based on LDS church teaching that blacks were less valiant in the pre-earth life and were thus born black in this life and cursed as pertains to the priesthood. It is also not surprising, given this doctrine, that many Mormons value their belief that the most valiant in the pre-earth life are those who are born into the church within good Mormon familes. It must be very reassuring to think that being born into the LDS Church is evidence that you were valiant in the pre-earth life and are therefore one of God’s chosen ones. But, as Chesterton so astutely observed, this very convenient doctrine is prideful at its core and produces spiritual superciliousness. The Mormon teaching of a hierarchy of degrees of righteousness in the pre-earth life has the same effect on Mormons as Hindu beliefs about sin, Karma, and reincarnation has on Hindus from higher castes who view the Untouchables in India as unclean and worthless.

Much better is the Catholic teaching about Original Sin, which produces the completely opposite effect for “all have sinned [in Adam] and fall short of the glory of God.” Chesterton says:

“But Christianity preaches an obviously unattractive idea, such as original sin; but when we wait for its results, they are pathos and brotherhood, and a thunder of laughter and pity; for only with original sin we can at once pity the beggar and distrust the king.”

– these quotes are from the final chapter in
G.K. Chesterton, “Orthodoxy”

Thank God I’m no longer a Mormon but am now a member of Christ’s true church.

NS

 

[PaulDupre]

Didn’t he claim to be a descendent of Ephriam, and the “righteous branch” and “choice seer” of Joseph’s lineage? 2 Nephi 3:5-7

Ephraim was the son of Joseph and Asenath, an Egyptian woman. According to the Book of Abraham, the Egyptians are the seed of Cain through Ham, and were cursed to not having the “priesthood”.

Asneath, according to Genesis, was an Egyptian, and daughter of the high priest of Heliopolis (center for Egyptian sun-god worship)

Gen 41:45-50

An Egyptian, being the line of Ham, wouldn’t be eligible for the priesthood, and therefore, Joseph’s decendents through Ephriam or Manasseh (supposedly including Joseph Smith, Jr) would also be ineligible, prior to 1978. I’ve had LDS argue that the birthright is passed through the father, not the mother, and then one only has to wonder why the pre 1978 priesthood ban didn’t just have people born of a black father stated.

By their own doctrine, Joseph Smith wasn’t eligible for the LDS “priesthood” until 1978.

I also have a few quotes from Hugh Nibley regarding Pharoh, and from Joseph Fielding Smith regarding the curse of Ham, Abraham, etc, but I usually don’t get that far, getting brushed off as an “anti”.

You’re right! Holy cow! Why did no one ever think of that before?

 

[PaulDupre]

Didn’t he claim to be a descendent of Ephriam, and the “righteous branch” and “choice seer” of Joseph’s lineage? 2 Nephi 3:5-7

Ephraim was the son of Joseph and Asenath, an Egyptian woman. According to the Book of Abraham, the Egyptians are the seed of Cain through Ham, and were cursed to not having the “priesthood”.

Asneath, according to Genesis, was an Egyptian, and daughter of the high priest of Heliopolis (center for Egyptian sun-god worship)

Gen 41:45-50

An Egyptian, being the line of Ham, wouldn’t be eligible for the priesthood, and therefore, Joseph’s decendents through Ephriam or Manasseh (supposedly including Joseph Smith, Jr) would also be ineligible, prior to 1978.

You’re right! Holy Cow!

I’ve had LDS argue that the birthright is passed through the father, not the mother…

Not according to the Church…
Now what is our policy in regard to inter-marriage? As to the Negro, of course, there is only one possible answer. We must not inter-marry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse.

• (Race Problems—As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954)

By their own doctrine, Joseph Smith wasn’t eligible for the LDS “priesthood” until 1978.

I also have a few quotes from Hugh Nibley regarding Pharaoh, and from Joseph Fielding Smith regarding the curse of Ham, Abraham, etc, but I usually don’t get that far, getting brushed off as an “anti”.

If this is true, then none of the Mormons are eligible for the priesthood. In the patriarchal blessing, they are always declared to be from either Ephraim of Manasseh. This needs to be pursued further.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

I also have a few quotes from Hugh Nibley regarding Pharoh, and from Joseph Fielding Smith regarding the curse of Ham, Abraham, etc, but I usually don’t get that far, getting brushed off as an “anti”.

Could you share those with me, either here or by PM or e-mail?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[excaliber]

Ok is it just me or can I check mormons of the list?
Jehovah’s Witnesses are already checked of the list.

Which means The restoration Churches who claim a great apostasy, seem to be the easiest ones to check of the list.

The bible alone churches are proven wrong almost to easily.

This seems to be a battle between
Catholic and Orthodox…Knowone else puts up much of a fight so far.

The Mormon Church is clearly beyond doubt WRONG on this matter.

However because this pertains to Black People, it would be clear to blacks that The Lds Churches teachings were corupted by racism very early on.

My question is this…would this evidence be just as strong for an asian or caucasian or mexican etc…would the treatment of a race that’s not there own even concern them enugh to get them to question the Lds faith?

 

[ibkc]

However because this pertains to Black People, it would be clear to blacks that The Lds Churches teachings were corupted by racism very early on.

My question is this…would this evidence be just as strong for an asian or caucasian or mexican etc…would the treatment of a race that’s not there own even concern them enugh to get them to question the Lds faith?

It did me. When I was a teenager, a close friend converted to the LDS church and was trying to get me to come along with her. She gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon and I read it, and went to the library and checked out a couple of books on LDS history. I found the racial doctrines to be horrifying and told my friend that there was no way that LDS church can be from God.

 

[zerinus]

My question is this…would this evidence be just as strong for an asian or caucasian or mexican etc…would the treatment of a race that’s not there own even concern them enugh to get them to question the Lds faith?

Why don’t you go and ask that question from the growing numbers of black members of the Church? Did you know that recently the LDS Church dedicated a temple in Ghana? Temples are only built in areas where there is a large LDS population to cater for. So why don’t you go and ask that question from them? Here is an interesting site you can look at:

meridianmagazine.com/ghana/index.html

Click on the links in the left panel to see all the interesting photo essays.

zerinus

 

[excaliber]

Why don’t you go and ask that question from the growing numbers of black members of the Church? Did you know that recently the LDS Church dedicated a temple in Ghana? Temples are only built in areas where there is a large LDS population to cater for. So why don’t you go and ask that question from them? Here is an interesting site you can look at:

meridianmagazine.com/ghana/index.html

Click on the links in the left panel to see all the interesting photo essays.

zerinus

If I see a black mormon I will ask them about this.

However this thread at the facts in this thread are more important then what other mormons think about those facts.

So far The Lds church has been proven to have taught herasy!!!

Now you may say" well there are black mormons".

But having black,asian,mexican,caucasian…
or alien mormons, dosent change the fact that the Lds church has taught herasy.

And it was proven on this thread.

 

[PaulDupre]

zerinus:

Why don’t you go and ask that question from the growing numbers of black members of the Church? Did you know that recently the LDS Church dedicated a temple in Ghana? Temples are only built in areas where there is a large LDS population to cater for.

I would bet that none of those members in Ghana have read Brigham Young or Mark E. Peterson’s racist diatribes.

Also, it is no longer true that the LDS only build temples in areas where there are lots of members. They now build temples in areas where they hope to get lots of members. They are currently very interested in Africa because most Africans do not have internet access. Anywhere people have access to the internet, they are forewarned about Mormonism and will not fall for the missionaries’ lies.

the LDS sect is shrinking. There is no way to stop the hemorrhaging of members as the deception is exposed.

Paul

 

[excaliber]

I would bet that none of those members in Ghana have read Brigham Young or Mark E. Peterson’s racist diatribes.

Also, it is no longer true that the LDS only build temples in areas where there are lots of members. They now build temples in areas where they hope to get lots of members. They are currently very interested in Africa because most Africans do not have internet access. Anywhere people have access to the internet, they are forewarned about Mormonism and will not fall for the missionaries’ lies.

the LDS sect is shrinking. There is no way to stop the hemorrhaging of members as the deception is exposed.

Paul

Is it realy shrinking?
I hear there are 6 million just in america.

Mormons are twice the size of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[zerinus]

If I see a black mormon I will ask them about this.

Oh, there are loads you can ask. Here are some:

ldsgenesisgroup.org/
blacklds.org/
blacklds.org/testimonies

However this thread at the facts in this thread are more important then what other mormons think about those facts.

Is that so? This thread is nothing. I can show you loads of “threads” that tells you worse things about Catholicism or JWs or any other. That proves nothing

So far The Lds church has been proven to have taught herasy!!!

Who says? And what determines heresy? Who made you the judge and jury of what is and what is not heresy?

Now you may say" well there are black mormons".

But having black,asian,mexican,caucasian…
or alien mormons, dosent change the fact that the Lds church has taught herasy.

Of course it does. You are one voice among many. You call it a heresy, I don’t. What makes you think you are smarter than everybody else? What makes you a cut above the rest? Why should I listen to you and not to other black Mormons? There are around 400,000 black Mormons, 225,000 of whom live in Africa, and the rest mostly live in North and South America and the Caribbean. Why should I believe you and not them? What makes you think you are the only smart one around?

And it was proven on this thread.

This thread has “proves” nothing. If you think you can judge Mormonism on the basis of this “thread,” go for it. But let me give you a word of caution found in the Book of Mormon:

Mormon 8:

19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

Is it realy shrinking?
I hear there are 6 million just in america.

Most of them are inactive or have left the church entirely. It is estimated that there are less than 5 million active LDS worldwide. They severely inflate their membership statistics.

 

[scipio337]

Why don’t you go and ask that question from the growing numbers of black members of the Church? Did you know that recently the LDS Church dedicated a temple in Ghana? Temples are only built in areas where there is a large LDS population to cater for. So why don’t you go and ask that question from them? Here is an interesting site you can look at:

meridianmagazine.com/ghana/index.html

Click on the links in the left panel to see all the interesting photo essays.

zerinus

Prolly guilty conscience. They have quite a bit of the “Seed of Cain” to proxy baptise after 140 years of abject racism.

 

[PaulDupre]

The LDS teach that people are born into the black race and in Africa because in the pre-existence they were not righteous or valiant enough to be born white and Mormon.

Are they teaching that in Africa now? I doubt it.

 

[excaliber]

Oh, there are loads you can ask. Here are some:

ldsgenesisgroup.org/
blacklds.org/
blacklds.org/testimonies

Is that so? This thread is nothing. I can show you loads of “threads” that tells you worse things about Catholicism or JWs or any other. That proves nothing

Who says? And what determines heresy? Who made you the judge and jury of what is and what is not heresy?

Of course it does. You are one voice among many. You call it a heresy, I don’t. What makes you think you are smarter than everybody else? What makes you a cut above the rest? Why should I listen to you and not to other black Mormons? There are around 400,000 black Mormons, 225,000 of whom live in Africa, and the rest mostly live in North and South America and the Caribbean. Why should I believe you and not them? What makes you think you are the only smart one around?

This thread has “proves” nothing. If you think you can judge Mormonism on the basis of this “thread,” go for it. But let me give you a word of caution found in the Book of Mormon:

Mormon 8:

19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

zerinus

I don’t mean to make you defensive.

Perhaps I should not have said that so bluntly.

You brought up a good point. What makes me the judge for others.
I have my standard that I judge by and you have a different set of standards.

By your standards this thread dosent prov anything.
I understand that perfectly.

So WHAT IS the standard by which you have judged all churches and have decided Lds meets that standard?

Basicly…what exactly makes you feel that Lds is true?

 

[zerinus]

So WHAT IS the standard by which you have judged all churches and have decided Lds meets that standard?

Basicly…what exactly makes you feel that Lds is true?

I have read the Book of Mormon, and the Spirit of the Lord bears winess to me that it is a book of scripture, a revelation from God, and it is true.

zerinus

 

[NewSeeker]

the Spirit of the Lord bears witness to me

I don’t mean to be flippant, but this is something I struggled with my entire life while still a Mormon - how do you **know **it was the Spirit of the Lord that bore witness to you?

NS

 

[excaliber]

I have read the Book of Mormon, and the Spirit of the Lord bears winess to me that it is a book of scripture, a revelation from God, and it is true.

zerinus

How did you first find out about the book of mormon?

How did you get it to begin with, and what faith did you convert from?

 

[zerinus]

How did you first find out about the book of mormon?

How did you get it to begin with, and what faith did you convert from?

What difference does that make? It doesn’t matter what religion you convert form—or from no religion at all. The process of conversion is the same. Even if you are born into the Church, you still have to obtain that testimony for yourself at some stage, and know for yourself that it is true. You can’t just rely on what other people tell you. The process of conversion is always the same—regardless of whether you convert from another religion, or you are born into the Church. The Spirit of the Lord witnesses to you that it is true.

zerinus