Black and LDS

[zerinus]

I don’t mean to be flippant, but this is something I struggled with my entire life while still a Mormon - how do you **know **it was the Spirit of the Lord that bore witness to you?

NS

I just do. I know it in the same way that Peter know Jesus was his Lord (Matthew 16:13–17). So apparently there is a way that you can know. I know it in the same way. I would further tell you that you couldn’t know that the Bible is true, except by the same testimony of the Holy Ghost.

zerinus

 

[excaliber]

What difference does that make? It doesn’t matter what religion you convert form—or from no religion at all. The process of conversion is the same. Even if you are born into the Church, you still have to obtain that testimony for yourself at some stage, and know for yourself that it is true. You can’t just rely on what other people tell you. The process of conversion is always the same—regardless of whether you convert from another religion, or you are born into the Church. The Spirit of the Lord witnesses to you that it is true.

zerinus

Oooook

so I guess by not answering, that means you were born into the mormon faith…that’s all you had to say shesh.

There is a HUGE difference in being born and raised Mormon.
And converting and having to learn
everything new.

My goodness Z!!!

you were waaaay of on that one.

That’s like saying there is no difference between a cradel catholic…and a mormon convert to catholosism…huge difference!!!

 

[zerinus]

Oooook

so I guess by not answering, that means you were born into the mormon faith…that’s all you had to say shesh.

There is a HUGE difference in being born and raised Mormon.
And converting and having to learn
everything new.

My goodness Z!!!

you were waaaay of on that one.

That’s like saying there is no difference between a cradel catholic…and a mormon convert to catholosism…huge difference!!!

You got a lot of things wrong with that one. First of all, my not giving a direct answer to your original question is neither an indication that I am born into the Church, nor that I am a convert. I am deliberately leaving that answer blank. Secondly, I don’t know why you keep comparing Mormonism with other religions. First you compared us with JWs; now you want to compare us with Catholics. The answer is that we are like neither. In the LDS Church, all members must be converted at some stage in their lives; and that conversion comes by the testimony of the Holy Ghost. There is no other way. From that point of view, there is no difference between someone born into the Church, and someone coming in from outside. Take my word for it, that is how it is in the LDS Church. I don’t know how it is in other churches, and don’t care. If you want to know about Mormonism, you learn it from me; you don’t try to tell me what Mormonism is.

zerinus

 

[excaliber]

You got a lot of things wrong with that one. First of all, my not giving a direct answer to your original question is neither an indication that I am born into the Church, nor that I am a convert. I am deliberately leaving that answer blank. Secondly, I don’t know why you keep comparing Mormonism with other religions. First you compared us with JWs; now you want to compare us with Catholics. The answer is that we are like neither. In the LDS Church, all members must be converted at some stage in their lives; and that conversion comes by the testimony of the Holy Ghost. There is no other way. From that point of view, there is no difference between someone born into the Church, and someone coming in from outside. Take my word for it, that is how it is in the LDS Church. I don’t know how it is in other churches, and don’t care. If you want to know about Mormonism, you learn it from me; you don’t try to tell me what Mormonism is.

zerinus

Aaahaa!!!
You said you don’t know about other churches,which means you were raised mormon.
You can’t get that passed my noodle!!! LOL

Im just trying to figure out your background, so I can know what your Idea of a church was…and what you were looking for…just tryin to understand better…that’s all.

 

[zerinus]

Aaahaa!!!
You said you don’t know about other churches,which means you were raised mormon.
You can’t get that passed my noodle!!! LOL

Im just trying to figure out your background, so I can know what your Idea of a church was…and what you were looking for…just tryin to understand better…that’s all.

Well, I don’t discuss my background; and that is totally irrelevant to the subject of the discussion. You had asked me how I knew that Mormonism is true. I gave you an answer. I told you that I have read the Book of Mormon, and the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true. That experience is totally irrelevant to whether I was born in the Church or coming into it from outside. Every Mormon must obtain that witness for himself; just as every convert from outside has to. Trust me, that is how it is in the LDS Church.

zerinus

 

[excaliber]

Well, I don’t discuss my background; and that is totally irrelevant to the subject of the discussion. You had asked me how I knew that Mormonism is true. I gave you an answer. I told you that I have read the Book of Mormon, and the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true. That experience is totally irrelevant to whether I was born in the Church or coming into it from outside. Every Mormon must obtain that witness for himself; just as every convert from outside has to. Trust me, that is how it is in the LDS Church.

zerinus

COME ON NOW!!!

Z you have to be fair.
A feeling you have on the inside may be enugh for you, but do you think a feeling is enugh for everyone?

If you were in my shoes, there would need to be more SOLID proof then that.

 

[zerinus]

COME ON NOW!!!

Z you have to be fair.
A feeling you have on the inside may be enugh for you, but do you think a feeling is enugh for everyone?

If you were in my shoes, there would need to be more SOLID proof then that.

You can call it “a feeling on the inside” all you want. I call it the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

I didn’t start Mormonism. Joseph Smith didn’t either. God did. And He will have to convince you of the truth of it Himself. All I can tell you is that He has done that for me (and for millions of other people), and show you how to go about obtaining it for yourself.

The way to obtain it is to read the Book of Mormon, and at the same time to talk to our people, and visit our church, and get to know us better, and talk to the missionaries; and eventually when God has determined that you are sufficiently sincere in your desires to know, and humble, and committed to following and obeying the truth, the revelation will be given to you to know that it is true. The rest is between you and Him. I have no control over what happens next. It is entirely in your own hands. But the promises of God are sure. He will not fail you if you do not fail Him.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

so z is a born in the church mormon who only knows what he has been taught in his sheltered mormon experience that is incomplete. he has yet to go through the temple and has often expressed views that contradict LDS leaders. this indicates a lack of knoeledge of LDs history and doctrinal development all too typical of young mormons today. if you want to learn about mormonism ask someone who knows ALL of it, not Z

 

[excaliber]

You can call it “a feeling on the inside” all you want. I call it the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

I didn’t start Mormonism. Joseph Smith didn’t either. God did. And He will have to convince you of the truth of it Himself. All I can tell you is that He has done that for me (and for millions of other people), and show you how to go about obtaining it for yourself.

The way to obtain it is to read the Book of Mormon, and at the same time to talk to our people, and visit our church, and get to know us better, and talk to the missionaries; and eventually when God has determined that you are sufficiently sincere in your desires to know, and humble, and committed to following and obeying the truth, the revelation will be given to you to know that it is true. The rest is between you and Him. I have no control over what happens next. It is entirely in your own hands. But the promises of God are sure. He will not fail you if you do not fail Him.

zerinus

AGAIN Z…lets be fair here.
Don’t ask others to do what you won’t do.

Would you go to Mass and read the Catechism of the Catholic church…Go through Rcia and pray to find out if Catholosism could be correct???

no I don’t think you will do that.

You would want to see proof, and see it now.
Catholics are the very best at doing that…the very very very best.
You can trace the church back to Christ…read about the marters…read about the early church fathers…etc…etc ITS ALL THERE.

now compare that to waiting for a feeling…or something.

A total apostasy was virtualy IMPOSSIBLE!!
The Church spread ALL OVER…all of them would have to get together and at the same time say…hey lets apostasize.
Because if they did not we would have a record of writings from the pure churches warning the apostate churches.
NONE of that exists.

And God has never left his people before, even when isreal was just as bad as everyone else…he kept working with isreal…he did not start a new nation.And isreal had gotten bad!!

Why then would he leave his church WHILE ITS STILL OPERATING…and start a new one?
If God wanted to restore a church he could have restored the one he started.

God is far to smart to have been run out of his own house by humans.

Then have to start all over in embarrassment as the church he got run out of spreads out to become the largest body of christians on the planet, and here God is with his 12 million mormons. Or 6 million Jehovah’s Witnesses.

A total apostasy would be the second biggest thing next to the coming of Christ, but yet there is no record of it???!!!

Not once have I spoken to a mormon that was not born and raised mormon.

 

[zerinus]

AGAIN Z…lets be fair here.
Don’t ask others to do what you won’t do.

Would you go to Mass and read the Catechism of the Catholic church…Go through Rcia and pray to find out if Catholosism could be correct???

no I don’t think you will do that.

You would want to see proof, and see it now.
Catholics are the very best at doing that…the very very very best.
You can trace the church back to Christ…read about the marters…read about the early church fathers…etc…etc ITS ALL THERE.

now compare that to waiting for a feeling…or something.

A total apostasy was virtualy IMPOSSIBLE!!
The Church spread ALL OVER…all of them would have to get together and at the same time say…hey lets apostasize.
Because if they did not we would have a record of writings from the pure churches warning the apostate churches.
NONE of that exists.

And God has never left his people before, even when isreal was just as bad as everyone else…he kept working with isreal…he did not start a new nation.And isreal had gotten bad!!

Why then would he leave his church WHILE ITS STILL OPERATING…and start a new one?
If God wanted to restore a church he could have restored the one he started.

God is far to smart to have been run out of his own house by humans.

Then have to start all over in embarrassment as the church he got run out of spreads out to become the largest body of christians on the planet, and here God is with his 12 million mormons. Or 6 million Jehovah’s Witnesses.

A total apostasy would be the second biggest thing next to the coming of Christ, but yet there is no record of it???!!!

Not once have I spoken to a mormon that was not born and raised mormon.

No comment. I have already told you all that you need to know to make a decision. You are just bringing excuses. That suggests that you are not serious in wanting to know the truth. You need to repent of that if you want to discover the truth of Mormonism for yourself. I have nothing further to say.

zerinus

 

[excaliber]

No comment. I have already told you all that you need to know to make a decision. You are just bringing excuses. That suggests that you are not serious in wanting to know the truth. You need to repent of that if you want to discover the truth of Mormonism for yourself. I have nothing further to say.

zerinus

I was born and raised Jehovah’s Witness Z…that won’t work on me. Lets just say Im immune to arguments with no foundation.

You know when someone is presenting fact as Catholics do.
Or when someone is using tactics,such as avoiding questions or topics…or telling a person that having questions is wrong…or that its making excuses.

I was trained to do this as a Jehovah’s Witness…my own tricks won’t work on me.
The problem is that I did not know that the tactics ai was trained to use were wrong.

 

[excaliber]

The more I think of racism being taught in a church the worst it is!!!

Think back…humans in the image of God, were being(and some people still are) kidnaped…and not just forced to work…but hit with whips…killed…etc…etc
Jesus Christ knows EXACTLY how it feels to be put in chains and beaten with whips…I seriously doubt he would contribute to racism.

Also God was very protective of Mary and the infant Jesus, God protected him when the king was killing all the babys…why would God send an angel to tell Joseph to take his family to egypt…there are quite a few black people there
LOL.

Also when Moses brought Gods people out of egypt, and all those egyptian people came with them, probably because of the 10 plagues…why didn’t God set up some sort of racism then…when blacks were traveling with isreal.

I could go on and on about God saving both egyptians and Isrealites from the great famine.
When Joseph (who married an egyptian) told the egyptians to save seven years worth of food.

Racism is just not from God.
Hate of any kind is not from God.
And those mormon teachings were
racist.

What’s next??!! are angels in heaven going to be different colors based of how good you did on earth?

 

[ralphinal]

According to LDS teaching, what did Jesus look like? What does he look like now? What does God look like?

 

[excaliber]

And another thing!!!
What were angels judged to see if they would be men or women also??!!
Why couldn’t the mormon women have all the husbands she wanted?
Sort of like the queen bee in a hive.

Ok Ill quit fussing…

For now LOL

 

[excaliber]

According to LDS teaching, what did Jesus look like? What does he look like now? What does God look like?

Look at pictures of Jesus in there churches!!!
He looks like an american white guy LOL.

 

[ralphinal]

Look at pictures of Jesus in there churches!!!
He looks like an american white guy LOL.

Well, there are a lot of churches guilty of that.

IT is my understanding that the LDS teach that God has some sort of physical form. That would mean he looks like something. What does he look like? What color eyes? Hair? Same with Jesus? What about Mary? What did they look like according to the LDS?

Someone said that there is a verse where JS said the virgin in Bethlehem was white. Is this correct?

 

[zerinus]

Someone said that there is a verse where JS said the virgin in Bethlehem was white. Is this correct?

It is! The quote is from the Book of Mormon. It refers to a vision that Nephi saw of Mary the mother of Jesus:

1 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

In the Bible, whitens is associated with beauty, as well as with purity and holiness:

Psalms 51:

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Song of Solomon 5:

10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.

Lamentations 4:

7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire

Daniel 11:

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 12:

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 19:

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

zerinus

 

[scipio337]

It is! The quote is from the Book of Mormon. It refers to a vision that Nephi saw of Mary the mother of Jesus:

1 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

In the Bible, whitens is associated with beauty, as well as with purity and holiness:

Psalms 51:

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Song of Solomon 5:

10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.

Lamentations 4:

7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire

Daniel 11:

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 12:

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 19:

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

zerinus

So even Nephi was a racist?

Funny, but my NAB has different translations

Daniel 11:35

Of the wise men, some shall fall, so that the rest may be tested, refined, and purified, until the end time which is still appointed to come.

I’m assuming you are using the KJV, “so far as it is translated correctly”. In this case, those particular KJV passages support that racist doctrine, so they’re OK.

I think we could lay this all down into an interesting textual criticism topic. Unfortunately, we can have no such discussion of the BoM or Book of Abraham, as they were “translated” by a man looking into a hat with a rock in it. Obviously, it must be right!

 

[ralphinal]

So Jesus and his momma would have looked like Northern Europeans? I am surprised it took 33 years for them to want to kill him.

What does the Father look like?

 

[zerinus]

What does the Father look like?

The Father and the Son look alike. Joseph Smith who is the only one in this dispensation that we know has seen them both said that they are exactly alike. That of course agrees with what the Bible says. Jesus says that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father (John 14:9); and Paul tells us that Jesus is in the “express image” of His Father’s “person” (Hebrews 1:3)—which means that they look exactly alike.

zerinus