Black and LDS

[ibkc]

No, the half truths part was directed at you. I believe that some of their speculations were wrong, and that provides plenty of ammo for people like you, but it is there for all to see. People can choose for themselves.

What half-truths have I said? Is it not a fact that your prophets have taught that people with dark skin have the mark of Cain? Is it not a fact that this teaching is still current in the LDS?

 

[NewSeeker]

This explains your distorted view of all Mormons.

No. A lifetime in the church, including a full-time mission and temple marriage explains my view of all Mormons. My stake patriarch made me the same promise in my patriarchal blessing - that I too would one day be tutored by God himself in the creation of worlds. Try as you might, you can’t lamely attempt to explain away the Church’s official teaching of man’s eternal destiny in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

NS

 

[ljahns]

Not to mention many of you have LDS family members. Are they all brainwashed racists? I would guess they would be surprised to learn of your opinion of them. I can’t believe not one person has defended their family members here.

we are not black but i’ll respond. my mother is mormon and i love her very much. she told me recently that the reason she chose morminism is because it fills the spiritual hole in her. i think it goes beyond that to the fact that she was raised mormon and when she was ready to fill that hole the mormon church was at her door (literally). for her it has very little to do with truth. she has told me that there are many things in the lds that she disagrees with. however she just want to live a good life and leave the “deeper theology” to others.

Sadly this is all too typical with many people attending churches today. truth for them is what they want it to be.

i respect her decision to be in the lds church even though i think the church itself is very wrong.

 

[newshadow]

and many priests are pedafiles. See how easy that is? Think of me as a mirror.

It’s great that both sides have stopped discussing things and are just throwing out insults. A couple people seem to still be serious about the discussion. The rest of us are just trying to score points with clever word play. Awesome. Way to reflect Christ.

 

[wademann]

It’s great that both sides have stopped discussing things and are just throwing out insults. A couple people seem to still be serious about the discussion. The rest of us are just trying to score points with clever word play. Awesome. Way to reflect Christ.

I’m sorry for getting extreme, but It is hard to see the same stuff over and over, without responding. I have a very strong testimony of the truth of the COJOLDS, and no one knows what my experiences have been, if you had lived my life and seen what I"ve seen, I think that it would be hard for anyone to not be LDS, but if you don’t believe fine. I am not here to debate. I just like to watch and learn. I think for the most part most people on both sides show a lot of restraint, but there are a few that just spew hate constantly and I could do it all day long about any church including my own if I wanted to, but what purpose does it serve? I think that Bdawg, teacum, zerinus, and others make a great representation of our beliefs, and are much more capable of defending the truth, than I am, so I will leave it to them. I know I am probably waisting my time trying get my point across to certain people, and I’m sorry to any that were offended. I’m done for now.

 

[majick275]

I’m sorry for getting extreme, but It is hard to see the same stuff over and over, without responding. I have a very strong testimony of the truth of the COJOLDS, and no one knows what my experiences have been, if you had lived my life and seen what I"ve seen, I think that it would be hard for anyone to not be LDS, but if you don’t believe fine. I am not here to debate. I just like to watch and learn. I think for the most part most people on both sides show a lot of restraint, but there are a few that just spew hate constantly and I could do it all day long about any church including my own if I wanted to, but what purpose does it serve? I think that Bdawg, teacum, zerinus, and others make a great representation of our beliefs, and are much more capable of defending the truth, than I am, so I will leave it to them. I know I am probably waisting my time trying get my point across to certain people, and I’m sorry to any that were offended. I’m done for now.

i think bdawg does a good job of debating head on and is pretty good about citing verifiable references. teancum makes too many unfounded allegations and zerinus just rants and raves frequently contradicting LDs GA’s. you’ve done a pretty fair job of illustrating your point of view at least. i think you’ve earned some respect for that. for what it’s worth, many catholics have had intense spiritual experiences that have really edified their faith as well. i don’t doubt for one minute that you have had significant spiritual experiences of your own, i just believe they are more due to your sincere faith in god than your being mormon. i hope he continues to bless you and keep you.

 

[ralphinal]

Was I asking too much? I still am not sure about my questions .

Oh well. Maybe next time I can be more forceful

 

[wademann]

Wademann,

Please answer my questions. I would like to understand your position better. Anyone on here will tell you that I am not interested in attacking or making fun in any way.

{Do you deny that BY and those that followed him said and taught was is attributed to them?}

Which teaching?

{Do you deny that the LDS was the last of the large denominations to allow minority males to be ministers?}

Does it matter who was first or last?

{Do you deny that Mormon doctrine still says that dark-skinned people bear the curse of Cain?}

Which doctrine are you referring to.?

{Now I am not saying that the LDS is racest today. On the contrary, they have made great strides in reaching out to minorities. However, the attitude that existed as late as 30 years ago is not gone completely, and neither are the actual teachings./quote}

We all have come a long way, and still have a long way to go. There is plenty of attitude still going on in society as a whole!!!

 

[why_me]

I suppose that I can safely assume that no one listened to the presentation link that I posted earlier. It tells a lot about blacks and the history of the lds church considering blacks.

But I think that most people want to believe what they want to believe and stick to it, if it works for them.

 

[why_me]

People can also watch this trailer for the upcoming documentary:

untoldstoryofblackmormons.com/

I think that it sounds interesting.

 

[ralphinal]

ralphinal;3914314:

Wademann,

Please answer my questions. I would like to understand your position better. Anyone on here will tell you that I am not interested in attacking or making fun in any way.

{Do you deny that BY and those that followed him said and taught was is attributed to them?}

Which teaching?

{Do you deny that the LDS was the last of the large denominations to allow minority males to be ministers?}

Does it matter who was first or last?

{Do you deny that Mormon doctrine still says that dark-skinned people bear the curse of Cain?}

Which doctrine are you referring to.?

{Now I am not saying that the LDS is racest today. On the contrary, they have made great strides in reaching out to minorities. However, the attitude that existed as late as 30 years ago is not gone completely, and neither are the actual teachings.

Thank you so much for your reply.

The teachings of BY that are in question are the ones related to the status of the African-American soul and state in eternity.

DOes it matter who was last and who was first? Only if one of the groups claims continuous revelation from God. IF that group is last, there is an issue as to why God was not using them to lead the way.

As far as specific teachings and scriptures

Alma 3: 6 “And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.”

Skin color equal to punishment. We also see generational curses.

1: 2 Nephi 5: 21- ‘And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.’

This one also calls whites “fair and delightsome” and dark skinned peoples unattractive.

1 Nephi 11:8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

1 Nephi 11:13 And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

Jesus and Mary were white?

1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

Ah, black folks are lazy

1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

I can find more, I think

We can pull quotes from other prophets as well.

Yes, there is more work that needs to be done. But, to paraphrase LBJ, you cannot free a man from bondage and then say there, your the same. These issues have deep roots in Mormon churches and will take years to dissolve away. I am still bothered by the racist scriptures however.

Besides, it does not matter if one minority or ten million join. It does not prrove truth. After all, more African Americans will become Muslims this year than Mormon.

 

[wademann]

wademann;3917084:

Thank you so much for your reply.

The teachings of BY that are in question are the ones related to the status of the African-American soul and state in eternity.

DOes it matter who was last and who was first? Only if one of the groups claims continuous revelation from God. IF that group is last, there is an issue as to why God was not using them to lead the way.

As far as specific teachings and scriptures

Skin color equal to punishment. We also see generational curses.

This one also calls whites “fair and delightsome” and dark skinned peoples unattractive.

Jesus and Mary were white?

Ah, black folks are lazy

I can find more, I think

We can pull quotes from other prophets as well.

Yes, there is more work that needs to be done. But, to paraphrase LBJ, you cannot free a man from bondage and then say there, your the same. These issues have deep roots in Mormon churches and will take years to dissolve away. I am still bothered by the racist scriptures however.

Besides, it does not matter if one minority or ten million join. It does not prrove truth. After all, more African Americans will become Muslims this year than Mormon.

I did not say that joining the church proved anything. I happy with my decision to be LDS. There are many Intelligent, Happy, Black people who feel the same. The quotes that you bring up have been thrown out time and time again. I am sure you could find the past debates in the archives. I am satisfied with my choice. I don’t have the time, or typeing ability, to get caught up in these debates. I am sure that you will find plenty of others willing to engage with you.

 

[ralphinal]

ralphinal;3917489:

I did not say that joining the church proved anything. I happy with my decision to be LDS. There are many Intelligent, Happy, Black people who feel the same. The quotes that you bring up have been thrown out time and time again. I am sure you could find the past debates in the archives. I am satisfied with my choice. I don’t have the time, or typeing ability, to get caught up in these debates. I am sure that you will find plenty of others willing to engage with you.

And that is your choice. I am glad that you have found a home in the LDS church. Note that I did say that they have made great strides in moving beyond their past. My issue is less about today and more about the theological implications of this concept

I have discussed these verses more than once, and I am still not satisfied. I really have trouble accepting that the denomination with continuous revelation would have missed the boat this badly.

 

[wademann]

wademann;3918509:

And that is your choice. I am glad that you have found a home in the LDS church. Note that I did say that they have made great strides in moving beyond their past. My issue is less about today and more about the theological implications of this concept

I have discussed these verses more than once, and I am still not satisfied. I really have trouble accepting that the denomination with continuous revelation would have missed the boat this badly.

store.fairlds.org/prod/p2003DV03.html

Here you go, if you really want to know.

 

[why_me]

The pope is now in Australia. He will probably apologize to the aboriginies for the harm that the catholic missionaries did to them. It was not a pretty picture at that time in catholic history in Australia. I have said it´before, All churches had touches of racism in them in the past. It is always difficult to escape the confines of society regardless of the age one is living in.

All christian churches have touches of guilt in them. And the same holds true for non-christian faiths.

 

[ralphinal]

The pope is now in Australia. He will probably apologize to the aboriginies for the harm that the catholic missionaries did to them. It was not a pretty picture at that time in catholic history in Australia. I have said it´before, All churches had touches of racism in them in the past. It is always difficult to escape the confines of society regardless of the age one is living in.

All christian churches have touches of guilt in them. And the same holds true for non-christian faiths.

But here is the question that I keep runnning into. Was the racist nature of the crimes caused by men or by doctrine? FOr example, no where did any of the RCC doctrine say that blacks were inferior spiritually. They were never denyed the priesthood with the claim that God said they were unworthy. Why would GOd not use the Mormons has a standard bearer if they oisses contnuous revelation?

 

[why_me]

But here is the question that I keep runnning into. Was the racist nature of the crimes caused by men or by doctrine? FOr example, no where did any of the RCC doctrine say that blacks were inferior spiritually. They were never denyed the priesthood with the claim that God said they were unworthy. Why would GOd not use the Mormons has a standard bearer if they oisses contnuous revelation?

Have you listened to the presentation that I posted a link to? It is rather clear in terms of what was happening at that time. I have no idea why god would do or wouldn’t do this or that. But I do know that human beings are far from perfect. I believe that the lds treated those men who could not hold the priesthood rather well. They were not denied membership in the lds church. I have my own take on the matter but it is only my own personal opinion.

At the time of JS, blacks could hold the priesthood. But at the time of BY and Orson Hyde, a change occurred. In my opinion it has something to do with the climate of the time. Missouri was not a welcoming state for the lds and in fact, it was quite a racist state. I think that this had something to do with it. But listen to the presentation. It is interesting.

ldsgenesisgroup.org/media.htm

 

[why_me]

Nice try, but no that is not correct historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/utah_today/thecivilrightsmovementinutah.html

From your link:

Unlike the southern states, Utahns had never legally segregated their schools, colleges, or universities. Most children attended neighborhood elementary and junior high schools. Schools were open to all but were partially segregated as much by economic status as by race through residential living patterns. Before 1954, when Ogden opened Ben Lomond High on the secondary level, no Utah city except Salt Lake had more than one high school. Thus, patterns of residential living had not segregated most high schools. Moreover, the predominantly Euro-American students at Ogden High elected African Americans Shirley and Carl Kinsey to student-body offices in the early 1950s. During the 1970’s, most cities with racial and economic minorities began to try to eliminate informal economic and racial segregation by balancing the demographic makeup of student bodies.

I think that this says a lot about ordinary mormons and the attitude of the lds church at that time.

 

[why_me]

But here is the question that I keep runnning into. Was the racist nature of the crimes caused by men or by doctrine? FOr example, no where did any of the RCC doctrine say that blacks were inferior spiritually. They were never denyed the priesthood with the claim that God said they were unworthy. Why would GOd not use the Mormons has a standard bearer if they oisses contnuous revelation?

That would be a good debate. Some may claim that within christianity itself, there is this superior quality that was abused during the time in question. Christians tended to look upon all non-christians as pagans or savages in need of conversion by any means necessary. But I would call it the weakness of the human being at that time in not seeing god’s children in all creatures regardless of race, creed or origin.

 

[zaffiroborant]

From your link:

Unlike the southern states, Utahns had never legally segregated their schools, colleges, or universities. Most children attended neighborhood elementary and junior high schools. Schools were open to all but were partially segregated as much by economic status as by race through residential living patterns. Before 1954, when Ogden opened Ben Lomond High on the secondary level, no Utah city except Salt Lake had more than one high school. Thus, patterns of residential living had not segregated most high schools. Moreover, the predominantly Euro-American students at Ogden High elected African Americans Shirley and Carl Kinsey to student-body offices in the early 1950s. During the 1970’s, most cities with racial and economic minorities began to try to eliminate informal economic and racial segregation by balancing the demographic makeup of student bodies.

I think that this says a lot about ordinary mormons and the attitude of the lds church at that time.

The same could be said of the northern states, couldn’t it?