Black Lives Matters vs All Lives Matters

[Nepperhan]

That would equate to the Black Lives Matter movement that is solely focused on the Black lives lost to conflicts with ‘white’ police

Maybe there are efforts to stem the violence in black communities which produce such killings (there are!). Many folks outside those communities do not know of these efforts and presume that black on black killings are ignored or at least not condemned. That is just not so.

“Black Lives Matter” is needed to focus on the loss of black life which is not being addressed and which informs individuals outside of black communities. So it is not ‘black lives matters only when ended by outsiders’ but that now we need to stress to outsiders that black lives matter. Those within black communities already get this fact.

 

[Lea101]

EDITING TO ADD: What about if I’m white but " identify" as black, i.e., Rachel Dolezal? A supporter of BLM must at least consider that some white people at a BLM rally may identify as black! Now, let’s go a step further. If I identify as black… who are you to say I’m not ? These are the sorts of (totally ridiculous) views some folks hold - I mean, look at Rachel Dolezal herself!)

The vast majority has rejected her nonsense. It never caught on. If anything that whole ‘choosing your identity’ usually applies to biracial people who struggled with said issue. So why bring it up? What’s the relevance

 

[Shakuhachi]

Yes, very good. let us then treat black lives as if they do matter.

But let us also make a distinction between that sentiment and the organization Black Lives Matter.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

 

[Tommy999]

For me, black lives definitely matter and racial prejudice of all kinds is always wrong.

However, to put in context, I harken back to a song I learned in Sunday School as a little boy that is a good motto to live by:

“… Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight. Jesus loves the little children of the world”.

 

[VonDerTann]

Why bring it up? What’s the relevance?
It’s relevant because it is part of the error of believing “BLM isn’t racist because some whites support it.” My point is that whites support it for many reasons, many (perhaps all) of them bad ones. The fact that some whites may be as screwed up as dolezal
Is should be cause for reflection.

 

[Lea101]

Why bring it up? What’s the relevance?
It’s relevant because it is part of the error of believing “BLM isn’t racist because some whites support it.” My point is that whites support it for many reasons, many (perhaps all) of them bad ones

All I saw was a judgemental post accusing these people of supporting it for weird reasons, no mention of those who are genuinely interested in standing against racism (which would be the charitable assumption). Especially given that most protestors are protesting the sentiment, and not the org.

I still don’t see the relevance. You’re bringing up a person that was immediately rejected by the majority of liberals/leftists. There’s no link between that and BLM, unless you can prove that pseduo black people are supporting it solely because they think they’re part of the black community.

Otherwise it just seem random. I know I would be obliterated here if I choose one example of someone/an ideology that virtually nobody supports to back up my claim. It’s just an odd choice, that’s all.

There are delusional people in general. Some think they are actually animals not humans. It seems irrelevant to use that. BTW, I don’t disagree that white people can be racist against their own race. We have many POC who are against their own and will literally align themselves with racist figures. I just find the reasons funny.

 

[VonDerTann]

There is nothing wrongful about making the judgment that whites support BLM for many objectively poor reasons, and articulating some of those reasons. Your not liking or agreeing with 1 of those reasons does not render my original conclusions any less valid.

I respectfully reject the notion that whites join for objectively good reasons, such as ending racism, particularly given all the other, non-racial nonsense BLM supports, i.e. Abortion rights; “queer rights,” rights for illegal immigrants, etc.

 

[Lea101]

whites join for objectively good reasons, such as ending racism, particularly given all the other, non-racial nonsense BLM supports, i.e. Abortion rights; “queer rights,” rights for illegal immigrants, etc.

Assume the worst of people’s characters if you want.

We’ve seen again and again that the protestors are just protesting based on the sentiment. You ask them about BLM, the organisation, and they will look at you blankly. It’s just a slogan for a movement to them. You’re thinking too highly of people. You’re assuming they actually researched organisations and then make a choice to post something on SM, or attend a protest. In reality, they just heard it’s about police brutality on black people and decided to attend. Have you seen the crowds? You genuinely believe they all look at that part of the website?

Also, one can be pro other things you mentioned, and are still posting BLM content, marching etc because they want to end racism. The idea of people being anti racist isn’t unrealistic. What kind of white people do you know?

 

[VonDerTann]

Your post is internally inconsistent:
You castigate me for “assuming the worst of people’s character” but then 3 sentences later castigate me for “thinking too highly of people.”

People should be anti-racist. If they want it be anti-racist, joining BLM is far from their best option. It’s actually one of their worst options.

 

[Lea101]

thinking too highly of people.”

That was just tongue in cheek, my good fellow. I know you don’t think of them as good.

People should be anti-racist. If they want it be anti-racist, joining BLM is far from their best option. It’s actually one of their worst options.

There’s a difference between simply not being a racist, and being anti racist tbh. That’s perhaps a topic for another day.

If you’re talking about joining BLM as an organisation, then yup.

If you’re talking about peaceful protests with those signs, or a hash tag on SM, then no. The outrage literally held the cops involved accountable. It led to some cases being investigated now. It’s making some people known for their dogwhistles sweat. That’s meaningful change.

Of course it’s preferable/ideal for them to have a different slogan than a shady organisation. The fact that it’s the same is unfortunate. Most people aren’t aware of the actual organisation and what they actually do. They probably didn’t even donate to them.

But to say that they’re all affiliated with the organisation, or the fact that they’re racist is intellectually dishonest.

 

[YADA]

Perhaps … but I have family members in the black community and know many people in that community who feel that BLM should fcus on all lives and on where the greatest lives are being lost not on these high profile cases that create the havoc we are seeing now.

More people have lost their lives in the rioting and looting in a matter of weeks than a years worth of the incidences they are protesting. Which is not to discount the life of George Floyd and other victims of police malpractice. But the loss of life to the riots is also malpractice. In many big cities more lives are lost every week in each city than are lost in a year nationally to police malpractice.

You say maybe there are efforts to stem that tide … but if there are - they are not working … and since that is the majority of black lives being lost - many people - especially African Americans - believe that BLM should include those black lives - as they number in the thousands [and to abortion tens of thousands].

Also, many people believe that if those issues are dealt with - the crime - especially the black on black murders, assaults, gangs, drugs, etc … there will be less encounters with police. Less police interactions reduces the chance of those contacts spiraling into an incident.

 

[Nepperhan]

More people have lost their lives in the rioting and looting in a matter of weeks than a years worth of the incidences they are protesting.

Okay, verify that claim, please.

many people - especially African Americans - believe that BLM should include those black lives - as they number in the thousands [and to abortion tens of thousands].

Also, many people believe that if those issues are dealt with - the crime - especially the black on black murders, assaults, gangs, drugs, etc … there will be less encounters with police. Less police interactions reduces the chance of those contacts spiraling into an incident.

Who are these ‘many people’? Do you have any citations for them? I have not heard of many communications from or about these many people.

 

[Theo520]

I personally say black lives matter. I think in some instances, people say “All lives matter” without realizing that it is undermining black people. Of course all lives matter, but right now, some lives are not being treated like they matter. So saying “all lives matter” can be said with perfectly good intent, but it is a phrase used in opposition to black lives matter.

I think people object to the peer pressure to blindly give their support to “BLM” when the case being heralded isn’t deserving, is a farce.

One example

There are deserving cases, but the BLM movement more often than not picks the wrong ones as their protest theme.

They are a political movement, not a sincere grass roots effort of reform.

 

[Socrates92]

To illustrate the point, imagine you heard of a group raising money for breast cancer. You wouldn’t go “how dare you, lung cancer also matters!”

Fair point. On the other hand, if you were raising money for lung cancer and you came across a group raising money for cancer research in general, you probably wouldn’t demonize them, such as the BLM crowd is doing with the “All Lives Matter” crowd.

 

[Dan123]

What’s the agenda of the All Lives Matter protests? Where are the protests? What slogans seem to occur frequently at their gatherings?

 

[YADA]

More people have lost their lives in the rioting and looting in a matter of weeks than a years worth of the incidences they are protesting.

Okay, verify that claim, please.

Even if you discount Patrick Underwood [Because he was killed by the Boogaloo nut job using the riots as cover] - We still have these deaths that are tied to the riots: David Dorn, David McAtee, Chris Beaty, Dorian Murrell, Italia Kelly, Marquis Tousant, Calvin Horton Jr., James Scurlock, Javar Hurrell, Barry Perkins III, Jorge Gomez, Jose Gutierrez, Victor Cazares Jr, Marvin Francios, John Tiggs, Robert Forbes, plus two unidentified in Philadelphia and 2 unidentified in Seattle. These are the ones that news reports have indicated are results of the protests/riots/looting that stemmed from the murder of George Floyd. That is 20 people dead with a connection to the riots … many of which are African Americans. And then there are those with serious injuries - the policeman shot in Vegas who is on a ventilator … and hundreds more injured.

In 2019 - 9 unarmed African Americans were shot and killed by police - I do not have numbers for other types of deaths similar to the outrageous murder of George Floyd - even if that number is the same - 9 … that would be 18 people

 

[Nepperhan]

We still have these deaths that are tied to the riots: David Dorn, David McAtee, Chris Beaty, Dorian Murrell, Italia Kelly, Marquis Tousant, Calvin Horton Jr., James Scurlock, Javar Hurrell, Barry Perkins III, Jorge Gomez, Jose Gutierrez, Victor Cazares Jr, Marvin Francios, John Tiggs, Robert Forbes, plus two unidentified in Philadelphia and 2 unidentified in Seattle.

So, were these individuals looting or were they innocent bystanders? Please quantify also how many people died at the hands of the police but were not on videos like Mr. Floyd.

Nevermind, you made an inaccurate comment and I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[YADA]

They are dead whether they died trying to save their business, their livelihoods, were there to to peacefully protest. They are equally dead if they came to create mayhem through theft, assault and murder …

These victims comprise a combination of all of the above - there are at least one victim that falls into every category …

Please note - they are equally just as dead … and they are dead because people decided to protest and others decided to use the protests to commit criminal actions …

Do you really think the people who loved and cared for them care whether they are dead while 100% innocent of wrong doing or are dead while committing a crime? We know they are all grieving - for those lives lost - it does not matter. There lives mattered just as much as George Floyds and the hurt is just as real, their deaths are just as senseless - and perhaps even more so …as they stem from a senseless murder …

An Eye for an Eye leaves a room full of blind people … A Life for a Life just leads to full cemeteries, an ocean of tears and ever more hatred … it is not a way to create justice, equality or to unify people.

 

[VonDerTann]

Nepper, you asked for quantification and you got it, admirably. YADA is correct: the riots have resulted in more deaths (in like 2 weeks no less) than a years’ worth of encounters between unarmed blacks and police nationwide.

 

[Lea101]

Fair point. On the other hand, if you were raising money for lung cancer and you came across a group raising money for cancer research in general, you probably wouldn’t demonize them, such as the BLM crowd is doing with the “All Lives Matter” crowd

To be fair, all the All Lives Matter crowd is doing is just chanting that in response to the BLM crowd. They’re not actually protesting for a cause, they’re just protesting against something. They’re not actually doing anything for the community. So it’s not comparable to a group raising money for cancer research in general. A more fitting analogy would be these people only showing up to fundraisers for lung cancers and saying all cancer matters and only saying all cancers matter whenever someone brings up lung cancer. Instead of organising funds of their own