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Arizona_Mike
Guest
I would suggest that it is appropriate to distinguish between homoerotic behavior (as you term it) and a homosexual act.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
Would you feel the same way about Dr. Kinsey’s threats to sue anyone who contradicts his data?
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Midwest88
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13126963&postcount=82
The kid (and his sisters) was brought into the world via IVF and is now an LGBT activist.
The kid (and his sisters) was brought into the world via IVF and is now an LGBT activist.
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gilliam
Guest
Zach Wahls is a Scouter. His group is working with a number of councils and districts to recruit more BSA units. We may not agree with his politics but he loves Scouting and wants to see it grow. Their next steps website: scoutsforequality.org/nextstep/
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
That “Next Steps” recruitment page gives a pretty good sense of what the LGBT movement has planned next (emphasis mine)
It would appear Wahls is attempting to recruit Scouters specifically to change the policies further to end the religious exception for COs, to allow athiests to enter(and change the rules further), and to allow “trans” members to enter (girls who think they are boys, and female members who think they are men.) And they would like a whole lot more media attention to all the new gay members Wahls wants to recruit. Wahls wants Scouting to grow, I agree, but in nothing like the shape we recognize it.
Gillam, I’m honestly confused. Do you think the above is a good thing for Scouting?
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gilliam
Guest
Want to know what I think? I think Scouting should be open to everyone who can profess a duty to God and abides by the BSA policies. A number of churches and synagogues dropped Scouting because of the ban. If this group can bring them back, that is a good thing.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
So you’ll fight against Wahl’s new recruits when they join and begin fighting to allow atheists to enter, and to remove any requirement to profess God because it will offend them.
Yikes. Just, yikes.
Scouting is, or was, a tool to teach kids good morals and attitudes and skills. It’s not that anymore, and will become less so each year. I think many Scouters and many Catholics have become so enamored of the tool that they still want to use it when it can no longer accomplish the task.
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Midwest88
Guest
I am fully aware that Wahl’s is a Scout - I thoroughly read his site so you don’t need to remind me of his involvement. My point of my post to refer to my other is to shed light that people like Wahl’s are factors into moving away from the original BSA rules to the integrate those with same-sex attraction within packs and leaders in the form of “Let Your Pride Shine.” I believe there was a Seattle, WA troop who had a parade a couple of weeks ago holding the LGBT flag. How innocent and totally not broadcasting anything whatsoever. My post also was meant to show that Wahl’s has become an LBGT activist - he’s the perfect model that the LGBT supporters/activists need. In “Two lesbians raised a kid and this what they got” back in 2011 I recall someone saying that he’d probably become a tool for his guardians sexuality. That turned out true. His website and his “missions” prove that. All he needs to add is “Hawkeyes For Equality Engineering!” project.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
If you choose to use the term “bisexual” to describe anyone who has had a sexual encounter with a person of the same sex, you will be including those who who were molested against their will, whether as children by an adult or an older boy, by those who were assaulted in prison, or in other non-consensual events. That isn’t right, and I think you know that.
A larger problem is that other studies do not corroborate Kinsey’s findings.
If you are interested in which percentage of men have EVER had any sexual contact with another male, later international studies of western countries using much larger test groups and stricter protocols do not support Kinsey’s conclusions.
For contrast, the much older Kinsey study concluded that 46% of the male subjects had “reacted” sexually to persons of both sexes in the course of their adult lives, and 37% had at least one homosexual experience. 11.6% of white males (ages 20–35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) throughout their adult lives. The study also reported that 10% of American males surveyed were “more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55” (in the 5 to 6 range).
In Australia (2001/2002), with 19,307 respondents between the ages of 16 and 59 in 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as homosexual and 0.9% as bisexual. Only 5.9% of men reported any instance of homosexual experience in their lives; these figures fell to 5.7% and 5.0% respectively when non-genital sexual experience was excluded (Grulich, A. E.; De Visser, R. O.; Smith, A. M.; Rissel, C. E.; Richters, J (2003). “Sex in Australia: Homosexual experience and recent homosexual encounters”. Australian and New Zealand journal of public health 27 (2): 155–63. PMID 14696706.)
A 2014 update of the Australian study had an even larger survey group: 20,055 respondents), and a broader respondent age range (16-69). The study found that 96.5% of the entire sample (or 96.7% of the men and 96.3% of the women) identified as heterosexual, a drop from the 2003 findings (97.5%). Homosexuals accounted for 1.9% of the male population and 1.2% of the female population, a non-significant difference between the sexes. Bisexuals accounted for 1.3% of the male population and 2.2% of the female population. **Only nine percent of men and 19% of women had any history of same-sex attraction or experience. **
(Richters J, Altman D, Badcock PB, Smith AM, de Visser RO, Grulich AE, Rissel C, Simpson JM (2014). “Sexual identity, sexual attraction and sexual experience: the Second Australian Study of Health and Relationships.”. Sex Health. 11 (5): 451–60. doi:10.1071/SH14117.)
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
A French study in 1992 of 20,055 people found that only 4.1% of the men and 2.6% of the women had at least one occurrence of intercourse with person of the same sex during their lifetime. (urbanreproductivehealth.org/resource/aids-and-sexual-behaviour-france)
In Ireland in 2006, A study of the responses of 7,441 individuals found that 2.7% of men and 1.2% of women self-identified as homosexual or bisexual. A question based on a variant of the Kinsey scale found that only 5.3% of men and 5.8% of women reported some same-sex attraction. Of those surveyed, 7.1% of men and 4.7% of women reported a homosexual experience some time in their life so far. It also found that 4.4% of men and 1.4% of women reported a “genital same-sex experience” in their life so far. The study was commissioned and published by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency in partnership with the Department of Health and Children. (Layte, Richard et al. (2006). The Irish study of sexual health and relationships (PDF). Dublin: Crisis Pregnancy Agency. p. 126. ISBN 1905199082. Retrieved 18 April 2012.)
In a1988 survey of 6,300 random Norwegians, 3.5% of the men and 3% of the women reported that they had a homosexual experience sometime in their life (Sundet JM, Kvalem IL, Magnus P, Bakketeig LS (1988). “Prevalence of risk-prone sexual behaviour in the general population of Norway”. In Fleming AF, Carbaliv M, Fitzsimons DF. Global Impact of AIDS. New York: Alan R. Liss. pp. 53–60)
A 1992 study of of 8,337 British men found that 6.1% have had a “homosexual experience” and only 3.6% had "1+ homosexual partner ever."
In the U.S. of A., a study that did not rely on self-reporting by Seth Stephens-Davidowitz estimated that roughly 5 percent of American men are “primarily attracted to men”. First, using Facebook data and Gallup poll results, he correlated the percentage of men who are openly gay with their state of birth and residence. Second, he measured what percentage of Google pornographic searches were for gay porn. The first method gave between 1 and 3 percent. The second showed that roughly 5 percent of men search for gay porn in every state. The figure was slightly higher in states considered gay-tolerant than in others. (Stephens-Davidowitz, Seth. “How Many American Men Are Gay”. nytimes.com. The New York Times. Retrieved 24 August 2014.)
The American National Health Interview Survey conducted household interviews of the civilian non-institutionalized population in 1992. The results of three of these surveys, done in 1990–91 and based on over 9,000 responses each time, found that between 2–3% of men responding said yes to a set of statements which included "You are a man who has had sex with another man at some time since 1977, even one time. (Dawson, D. & Hardy, A.M. (1990–1992). National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control, Advance Data, 204, 1990–1992.)
In 1993, the Alan Guttmacher Institute’s study of sexually active men aged 20–39 found that only 2.3% had experienced same-sex sexual activity in the last ten years, and only 1.1% reported exclusive homosexual contact during that time.
None of these or any other studies I have read confirm Kinsey’s very high estimates of the number who have had at least one homosexual experience in their lives.
So, based on the discrepancies between outcomes and the lack of any reputable studies that duplicate Kinsey’s claim of 37%, can we finally agree that Kinsey is discredited?
In Ireland in 2006, A study of the responses of 7,441 individuals found that 2.7% of men and 1.2% of women self-identified as homosexual or bisexual. A question based on a variant of the Kinsey scale found that only 5.3% of men and 5.8% of women reported some same-sex attraction. Of those surveyed, 7.1% of men and 4.7% of women reported a homosexual experience some time in their life so far. It also found that 4.4% of men and 1.4% of women reported a “genital same-sex experience” in their life so far. The study was commissioned and published by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency in partnership with the Department of Health and Children. (Layte, Richard et al. (2006). The Irish study of sexual health and relationships (PDF). Dublin: Crisis Pregnancy Agency. p. 126. ISBN 1905199082. Retrieved 18 April 2012.)
In a1988 survey of 6,300 random Norwegians, 3.5% of the men and 3% of the women reported that they had a homosexual experience sometime in their life (Sundet JM, Kvalem IL, Magnus P, Bakketeig LS (1988). “Prevalence of risk-prone sexual behaviour in the general population of Norway”. In Fleming AF, Carbaliv M, Fitzsimons DF. Global Impact of AIDS. New York: Alan R. Liss. pp. 53–60)
A 1992 study of of 8,337 British men found that 6.1% have had a “homosexual experience” and only 3.6% had "1+ homosexual partner ever."
In the U.S. of A., a study that did not rely on self-reporting by Seth Stephens-Davidowitz estimated that roughly 5 percent of American men are “primarily attracted to men”. First, using Facebook data and Gallup poll results, he correlated the percentage of men who are openly gay with their state of birth and residence. Second, he measured what percentage of Google pornographic searches were for gay porn. The first method gave between 1 and 3 percent. The second showed that roughly 5 percent of men search for gay porn in every state. The figure was slightly higher in states considered gay-tolerant than in others. (Stephens-Davidowitz, Seth. “How Many American Men Are Gay”. nytimes.com. The New York Times. Retrieved 24 August 2014.)
The American National Health Interview Survey conducted household interviews of the civilian non-institutionalized population in 1992. The results of three of these surveys, done in 1990–91 and based on over 9,000 responses each time, found that between 2–3% of men responding said yes to a set of statements which included "You are a man who has had sex with another man at some time since 1977, even one time. (Dawson, D. & Hardy, A.M. (1990–1992). National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control, Advance Data, 204, 1990–1992.)
In 1993, the Alan Guttmacher Institute’s study of sexually active men aged 20–39 found that only 2.3% had experienced same-sex sexual activity in the last ten years, and only 1.1% reported exclusive homosexual contact during that time.
None of these or any other studies I have read confirm Kinsey’s very high estimates of the number who have had at least one homosexual experience in their lives.
So, based on the discrepancies between outcomes and the lack of any reputable studies that duplicate Kinsey’s claim of 37%, can we finally agree that Kinsey is discredited?
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DrTaffy
Guest
Nowhere has anyone else but you said this. All I have said is that a man raping a boy does not prove that that man is attracted to other adult men.
Why are you so determined to link men attracted to other adult men to child abuse, despite the evidence? Do you see how this looks as though you hate such men, not just disagree with their lifestyle?
meltzerboy
New member
This just shows how far behind the times I am (as well as scouting). Do you mean to say BSA still does not allow atheists to become members?
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JimG
Guest
“To be sure, upholding “high principles and moral values” is Scouting’s purpose, Gates says. But to hear Gates tell it, these principles and values are secondary to what the courts, the federal bureaucracy, and the surrounding cultural climate demand. Scouting, then, far from being a paragon of moral uprightness in a wayward age, is now to be the vehicle for the pragmatic capitulation to Leviathan. Boys must be Scouts in order to learn how to compromise, in a strategic way, with what the Bible unequivocally teaches is a grave sin.”
. . .
“There are many who see the current homosexual revolution as a logical continuation of the chaos of the Sexual Revolution begun in the 1960s. This is only partially correct. For while the Sexual Revolution was always aimed at diminishing, and ultimately destroying, the cultural power of the Church, the LGBTQ Revolution is aimed at replacing that ecclesial authority with naked state power. What we are witnessing now is the joining together of Alfred Kinsey and Saul Alinsky.”
The quotes are from this article.
. . .
“There are many who see the current homosexual revolution as a logical continuation of the chaos of the Sexual Revolution begun in the 1960s. This is only partially correct. For while the Sexual Revolution was always aimed at diminishing, and ultimately destroying, the cultural power of the Church, the LGBTQ Revolution is aimed at replacing that ecclesial authority with naked state power. What we are witnessing now is the joining together of Alfred Kinsey and Saul Alinsky.”
The quotes are from this article.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
Nope. Never have, although some religions (such as Buddhism) that profess a belief in a higher power but may not all believe in God or gods join. Scouting was started by Baden-Powell as an explicitly theistic movement and has remained such until now.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
Bishop James V. Johnson discusses Catholic response to the change:
Bishop James V. Johnston said Scout units sponsored by Catholic Churches within his diocese — which extends from Joplin to Cape Girardeau and oversees about 30 Cub Scout packs and Boy Scout units — will not allow any openly gay adults to be leaders.
“We get to choose who our leaders and scout masters are. And we want those men to be models of upright living that is consistent with Catholic moral teaching,” Johnston said. “I am an Eagle Scout myself. Scouting is very important to me and has been a big part of my life.”
Although the units sponsored by Catholic Churches in Johnston’s diocese will not allow gay adult leaders, Johnston said he fears the decision will still affect the Catholic units.
“It’s going to be challenging to participate in activities and Scout jamborees that are on a national level. I’m also concerned about how the Boy Scout handbook and some of the official material that are common are going to be changed,” he added. “I think there is reason to be concerned. I think only time will tell how this affects the future of Boy Scouts.”
news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2015/07/30/boy-scouts-ok-gay-leaders-springfield-area-scouts-ignore-decision/30877417/
Bishop James V. Johnston said Scout units sponsored by Catholic Churches within his diocese — which extends from Joplin to Cape Girardeau and oversees about 30 Cub Scout packs and Boy Scout units — will not allow any openly gay adults to be leaders.
“We get to choose who our leaders and scout masters are. And we want those men to be models of upright living that is consistent with Catholic moral teaching,” Johnston said. “I am an Eagle Scout myself. Scouting is very important to me and has been a big part of my life.”
Although the units sponsored by Catholic Churches in Johnston’s diocese will not allow gay adult leaders, Johnston said he fears the decision will still affect the Catholic units.
“It’s going to be challenging to participate in activities and Scout jamborees that are on a national level. I’m also concerned about how the Boy Scout handbook and some of the official material that are common are going to be changed,” he added. “I think there is reason to be concerned. I think only time will tell how this affects the future of Boy Scouts.”
news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2015/07/30/boy-scouts-ok-gay-leaders-springfield-area-scouts-ignore-decision/30877417/
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frobert
Guest
First let me congratulate you for finally doing the grunt work to backup some of your opinions.
Second, I never said I accepted Kinsey’s numbers which I actually believe are high by a factor of 2-3x.
The studies you cited where all from other countries. All were telephone surveys which have their own problems especially the later ones with the increasing use of mobile. The best of the bunch was the Irish study. Neither you or I am not in a position to properly evaluate the study but I did find it has only been cited 64 times by other researchers. But can you imagine the sampling errors with the many rejections you get when you are asked on a telephone to confide your sexual actives in a 30 minute interview? I know I would thank such a cold caller for including me and then politely recline.
In contrast all of Kinsey’s interviews were face to face and Kinsey was a master interviewer who could remain non-judgmental and establish trust. That is not to say that the study did not have faults but even with its faults it is still has much merit as nothing like it has been done since nor will likely ever be done again. In addition, in 1979, Paul Gebhard and Alan Johnson of the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University spent years “cleaning” the data of suspected contaminants. I already covered much of this in the links I provided in the previous posts.
That said. Let me remind you that the Kinsey Report is tangential to your post #179 linking homosexuality and pedophilia. So now that you have shown you can do the grunt work I would be forever grateful if you do the grunt work and backup your opinion with some facts. Mainly, how do you equate a few known figures from a fringe group, who identify themselves as pederasts, to the general population of gay men.
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Dawnia
Guest
Orientation is more than just lust.I assume that you mean that there is no objective test to determine someone’s orientation.
In which case I assume that the last time you checked was before this was published:
Freund, K., Watson, R., & Rienzo, D. (1989). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference. The Journal of Sex Research, 26 (1), 107-117.
And similair studies since.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
First off, if you didn’t give Kinsey’s conclusions any credence, why did you waste the forum’s time and bandwidth on it?
No, the studies I cited were not all from other countries. Are you even reading what other people are writing?
The people I cited self-identify as gays, as well as having an interest in pederasty. They hold prominent positions in “gay” organizations, not just NAMBLA. They are apparently well known to other gays., Harvey Milk certainly is. Do you want me to start listing other gay men who promote, practice, and exalt sexual contact with minors?
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DrTaffy
Guest
Sexual orientation is, in my opinion at least, about who you find sexually attractive. If you have a different definition, we can agree to disagree. But it is in fact possible to objectively test whether a man finds other men sexually interesting, which is what is relevant to this discussion, surely?Orientation is more than just lust.
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pnewton
Guest
Here again we have a a slippage of language. Child abuse encompasses everything from infants to teenagers. Not all “recognize” there is a difference, the “very well known difference” in older minors, including the Catholic Church who took the rather drastic step of removing those with same sex attraction from seminaries to fight child sexual abuse.
Oh, and the “it is well known” is which fallacy, since you are so familiar with this?
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