Boy Scouts Expected to End Ban on Gay Leaders

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jtauke said:
Can you present solid, scientific data, linking homosexuality and pedophilia?

Statistics 101, correlation is not causation.
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Solid? That is an elusive term. I am referring to the John Jay report which resulted in the Catholic Church disallowing homosexual priests ( those with same-sex attraction) in the priesthood. While this has been a very difficult cross for many, the result has supported the conclusion that there was a link in the case of the Catholic Church. Yes, this is still correlation, from one point of view. From another, it is a trial in which the outcome matched the prediction, which supports the theory. Likewise, the next few years will provide more data, one way or another, on whether there is a link.

For me, it is sufficient to be cautious of male homosexuals around my son without sufficient supervision. Each parent must decide things for themselves, as what sufficient supervision even meant. I also would not like to over-dramatize the situation though, to where I pass on some stigma or prejudice that is not grounded in prudence.
 
bibcat said:
Don’t bet the ranch on that. Most of the priests involved in the various “pedophilia” scandals in the Catholic Church were actually ephebophile homosexuals, attracted to adolescent boys. So Boy Scouts would be in more danger than Cub Scouts!
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Yes, the vast majority of cases involved homosexual predation on adolescents. But the authors of the John Jay report simply refused to acknowledged the implications of their own findings.
 
pnewton said:
Solid? That is an elusive term. I am referring to the John Jay report which resulted in the Catholic Church disallowing homosexual priests ( those with same-sex attraction) in the priesthood. While this has been a very difficult cross for many, the result has supported the conclusion that there was a link in the case of the Catholic Church. Yes, this is still correlation, from one point of view. From another, it is a trial in which the outcome matched the prediction, which supports the theory. Likewise, the next few years will provide more data, one way or another, on whether there is a link.

For me, it is sufficient to be cautious of male homosexuals around my son without sufficient supervision.
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So you yourself should not be trusted around female children? I mean, you’re attracted to the female gender, and since the large majority of

I’ll even provide you some scientific research on the matter:

Research Article 1

Also, a quote by Margaret Smith (John Jay Researcher)
We do not find a connection between homosexual identity and the increased likelihood of subsequent abuse from the data that we have right now … It’s important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior. Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.
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Arizona_Mike said:
If you haven’t already, please read the legal brief I linked to from the former BSA General Counsel and tell me what you think.
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After your post, I read the legal brief.

But I think that sort of problem could come about regardless of whether the BSA discriminates or not. If anything this goes along with what the leader said earlier about the discrimination policy not being sustainable.
RACJ said:
What kind of idiot parent would risk his or her young son by sending him on a camping trip with a homosexual scout leader? Hey, all in the name of political correctness is good! Right? :bigyikes:
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As I said earlier, when the change was proposed, another parent might say, “I don’t want my son to be part of an organization that practices discrimination.” And quite a few parents do believe that.
 
gracepoole said:
Male heterosexual leaders have been allowed in Girl Scouting for eons, with the stipulation that a female leader must also be present (this ensures that a focus on female-centered activities and empowerment will be maintained). Should we assume that all male heterosexual leaders are there simply to prey on girls?
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So based on your approval of that policy, we should require that every gay scout leader must be accompanied by a heterosexual scout leader, and that you can’t have two gay scout leaders together as part of two in depth leadership, any more than you could have two males supervising the girls in the girl scout camp - same logic, right?

Good luck when you express that theory to the LGBT lobbyists.
 
jtauke said:
So you yourself should not be trusted around female children? I mean, you’re attracted to the female gender, and since the large majority of

I’ll even provide you some scientific research on the matter:

Also, a quote by Margaret Smith (John Jay Researcher)
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Yes, I am familiar with that quote. I also know the percentage of the offenses that were male on male which leads me to question that quote.

No, I should not be trusted around female children without proper supervision.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
So based on your approval of that policy, we should require that every gay scout leader must be accompanied by a heterosexual scout leader, and that you can’t have two gay scout leaders together as part of two in depth leadership, any more than you could have two males supervising the girls in the girl scout camp - same logic, right?
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You missed the part where I explained why a heterosexual male leader can’t be the sole leader of a girls’ troop: at least in large part, it’s because GSUSA wants to promote female empowerment and female leadership is imperative in that respect, not because it’s convinced sexually inappropriate activities will occur anytime a heterosexual male is present with girls.
 
bibcat said:
Don’t bet the ranch on that. Most of the priests involved in the various “pedophilia” scandals in the Catholic Church were actually ephebophile homosexuals, attracted to adolescent boys. So Boy Scouts would be in more danger than Cub Scouts!
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Scientific evidence to back your claim? I posted a research article from UC Davis a few replies up that debunks your claim. As well as a quote by a research who worked on the John Jay report.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
He’s talking about pederasty, not pedophilia, jtauke.
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I fail to see a distinction between the terms… Or how it makes any difference in my argument.

Fact is science doesn’t back the claim that homosexual men endanger children anymore than heterosexual men do.
 
pnewton said:
Yes, I am familiar with that quote. I also know the percentage of the offenses that were male on male which leads me to question that quote.

No, I should not be trusted around female children without proper supervision.
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You lost me at the last comment. Do you actually feel as though you are a threat to children? That would concern me.

You should be able to say with certainty that you are not a sexual threat to female children…and if you’re trying to make a point that no one should be trusted. What a sad, sad world we live in.
 
jtauke said:
You lost me at the last comment. Do you actually feel as though you are a threat to children? That would concern me.
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No, I am not a threat, but no I should not be trusted. Yes, we live in a sad, sad world. I would think anyone who reads the news should know how fallen the world is. The care of children in these organization should not depend on trust though. Rather, common sense guidelines work to keep kids pretty safe. Furthermore, common sense rules make those that want to break these rules stand out as a potential danger.

I do work with children through my parish music, including a few girls 8-12. I have a rule that one of the parents need to stay, or some other adult. I have never had any problem, and this is in accord with diocesan policy.
 
jtauke said:
I fail to see a distinction between the terms… Or how it makes any difference in my argument.

Fact is science doesn’t back the claim that homosexual men endanger children anymore than heterosexual men do.
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Okay, in terms of social acceptance within their subculture, pedophilia (a sexual interest in young children, whether male or female) is pretty much reviled by everyone, straight or gay,

Pederasty (a homosexual interest in male teenagers) is and was accepted by many in the homosexual community, with stories of “coming out” as a teen with an adult common in gay literature (cf Samuel Delaney, William Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, etc., etc.) and celebrated in numerous gay websites.

The call to decriminalize sexual contact between adult male gays and teenaged boys is more and more common on gay websites and in statements by gay leaders.

We even have a postage stamp devoted to a man who was a practicing pederast - Harvey Milk, an icon of gay culture.

Still don’t believe me? Look at the “talk” pages with administrative notes for the Wikipedia pages on “pedophilia” and “pederasty”.

The “Pedophilia” has no illustrations (thankfully) and treats the matter as pathology. There are no links to LGBT pages, it is linked under science.

However, the “Pederasty” Wikipedia page, if you can stomach looking at it, has a permissive tone and idealized pictures of sculpture and art depicting pederasty. The Talk page notes that “This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.”

And this symbol for the WikiProject LGBT studies program:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

When commentors argued against linking it to the article child sexual abuse, one of the commenters wrote: “I agree this tag needs to be removed. Pederasty is not sexual abuse. What a bloody moronic prude! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.109.44 (talk) 01:21, 27 December 2014 (UTC)” The tag was removed. It remains an object of gay interest and even approval by some, apparently.

I have no idea where you got the idea that “science” doesn’t back the claim that homosexual men endanger children anymore than heterosexual men do.

There are far fewer of them (as you would expect, or the human race would expire), but study after study has shown that homosexual abusers of minors have a staggeringly higher number of victims than heterosexual abusers of minors.

Do you want me to start providing you with journal and law enforcement monograoh cites? You won’t win that argument, jtauke.
 
I don’t know why this discussion is appearing to require scientific backing! Catholics have not only a right but an obligation to protect their children from sinful influences and openly homosexual scout masters certainly fall into that category. I don’t care a hoot about scientific evidence of criminal activity, homosexuality does not belong in a Church setting where children are learning through the influence and observation of youth leaders.
 
Here’s a sampling of religious responses:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

Mormons said they were “deeply troubled” by the decision and said their “century-long association with Scouting will need to be examined.”

The Southern Baptist Convention:

The SBC has grown cooler to the BSA in the past few years. “We express consummate sadness that this once vibrant organization continues to cave to social pressure, compromising its long-held, constitutionally protected tenets,” said Roger “Sing” Oldham, spokesman for the SBC’s executive committee. Baptist churches are autonomous, so each church will decide for itself.

Roman Catholic Church:

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting expressed concerns about how Scouts define “sexual orientation” and how the new policy will be put into practice, but still supports the organization. “While this fluctuating situation will be increasingly challenging, we recognize the vital importance of providing a Catholic emphasis to Catholic Scouts and Scouters seeking ways to live out their ‘duty to God,’” its leaders said.

United Methodist Church:

Gilbert C. Hanke, CEO of the General Commission on United Methodist Men, pointed out that the new policy gives religious groups the option of selecting their own leaders.

“No church will be required to accept any volunteer as a Scout leader simply because of the new policy,” Hanke said.

Reform Judaism:

The Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism, which in 2001urged its congregations to stop housing Scout troops because of bans on gay members and leaders, “will swiftly review its recommendation to our synagogues,” said Barbara Weinstein, its director.

Unitarian Universalist Association:

The Boston-based association will reopen a dialogue “between our two organizations in order to re-establish right relations,” said its president, the Rev. Peter Morales.

washingtonpost.com/national/religion/religious-groups-react-to-boy-scouts-vote-to-drop-ban-on-gay-adults/2015/07/28/219f8e78-3562-11e5-b835-61ddaa99c73e_story.html
 
baliano said:
I don’t know why this discussion is appearing to require scientific backing! Catholics have not only a right but an obligation to protect their children from sinful influences and openly homosexual scout masters certainly fall into that category. I don’t care a hoot about scientific evidence of criminal activity, homosexuality does not belong in a Church setting where children are learning through the influence and observation of youth leaders.
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I’m just saying not all Catholics have a problem with it. We are all allowed to have our own beliefs and views.
 
gilliam said:
Are lawsuits ahead for church-based Boy Scout troops?

cruxnow.com/life/2015/07/27/are-lawsuits-ahead-for-church-based-boy-scout-troops/
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A few quotes from this article:

“The stage had been set for Monday’s action on May 21, when Gates told the Scouts’ national meeting that the long-standing ban on participation by openly gay adults was no longer sustainable. He said the ban was likely to be the target of lawsuits that the Scouts likely would lose.”

“The BSA’s top leaders have pledged to defend the right of any church-sponsored units to continue excluding gays as adult volunteers. But that assurance has not satisfied some conservative church leaders.”

“Stuart Upton, a lawyer for the LGBT-rights group Lambda Legal, questioned whether the BSA’s new policy to let church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable.”

“There will be a period of time where they’ll have some legal protection,” Upton said. “But that doesn’t mean the lawsuits won’t keep coming. … They will become increasingly marginalized from the direction society is going.”
 
JimG said:
A few quotes from this article:

“The stage had been set for Monday’s action on May 21, when Gates told the Scouts’ national meeting that the long-standing ban on participation by openly gay adults was no longer sustainable. He said the ban was likely to be the target of lawsuits that the Scouts likely would lose.”

“The BSA’s top leaders have pledged to defend the right of any church-sponsored units to continue excluding gays as adult volunteers. But that assurance has not satisfied some conservative church leaders.”

“Stuart Upton, a lawyer for the LGBT-rights group Lambda Legal, questioned whether the BSA’s new policy to let church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable.”

“There will be a period of time where they’ll have some legal protection,” Upton said. “But that doesn’t mean the lawsuits won’t keep coming. … They will become increasingly marginalized from the direction society is going.”
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Hard for me to believe the scouts aren’t finished as an organization.

It’s all very well for people to be tolerant of a homosexual scout leader, but how many are really willing to risk their own young sons in that circumstance? How can one be sure that a person who is sexually perverted in one way is not perverted in other ways?

As to heterosexual males leading girl scout troops or instructing them or whatever, I think it’s different, though I think any man who does it is foolish unless there is also a female leader there at all times without exception. Too easy to be the victim of some accusation.
 
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