Boy Scouts Expected to End Ban on Gay Leaders

[pnewton]

The gay agenda, if such a thing truly exists, is wasting its time trying to gain admission to the BSA on behalf of gay scout leaders for the purported purpose of normalizing homosexual relationships. It’s not worth the effort.

And yet, here we are. We have this news article. It is worth the effort to some. The “gay agenda” is not an organization, but a trend in society pushed by individuals. As such, there is not one agenda, but a synthesis of many agendas, as in all movements within a society. I assure you, not all promoters of homosexuality will accept the right of charters to exclude homosexuals and they will push for a furtherance of homosexuality within society.

There is no end to this, until a movement starts back to reverse the situation, stigmatize homosexuality as it was in the past. Stephen Colbert used to jest about the gay agenda was going to make him gay marry. The problem with his jest is that it is not totally jest in the minds of some. All we need to do is look at history where such a movement was never checked. Sodom was not an aberration, it was the completion of an unholy work.

 

[outremer]

National Catholic Committee on Scouting (NCCS) Statement on BSA Adult Membership Resolution
nccs-bsa.org/pdf/letters/NCCS%20Statement-150727.pdf

A very polite, sanitized statement of remaining within the BSA. Catholic Scouts should not materially support the evil that the BSA has adopted. It is a scandal.

If a statement had been issued by the Russian Orthodox, they would have noted that the BSA, like the Protestant denominations in Europe, were preparing their members to embrace the anti-Christ by adopting this position.

But, that’s the Orthodox mindset, sadly lacking in the Catholic world.

 

[bibcat]

According to what may be some dated statistics, out of about 100,000 chartered BSA troops in the country,

71.5 percent of all units are chartered to faith-based organizations.
21.3 percent of all units are chartered to civic organizations.
7.2 percent of all units are chartered to educational organizations.

Not all of those religious COs will be opposed to homosexual leadership - some Episcopalian, Presbyterians, and Methodists will welcome it. But that still leaves a very large chunk of the BSA technically exempt from the new requirements from National to allow gay leadership, and the LGBT organization’s lawyers have to know that.

No way will they allow those religious exceptions to survive if its just under 3/4 of the BSA.

In the BSA figures below for religious COs, the single largest by far is the LDS. If they feel that Gates treated them high-handedly and pull out, it’s Game Over for the Boy Scouts of America. I’m certain there are some frenzied calls being made between BSA HQ and the LDS as we speak.

(First number below is the number of units, second is the number of members. Can the BSA afford to lose 437,160 boys because of Gates’ decision? I doubt it.)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints*
37,933
437,160
United Methodist Church*
10,703
349,614
Catholic Church *
8,131
259,297
Presbyterian Church *
3,520
119,879
Lutheran Church *
3,728
111,483
Baptist Churches *
3,532
91,526
Episcopal Church *
1,180
41,340
United Church of Christ, Congregational Church
1,154
36,194
Community Churches
1,009
30,114
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
1,083
30,113
Church of Christ*
495
13,559
Evangelical/independent churches
299
7,740
Church of God
207
4,354
Reformed Church in America
124
3,921
Church of the Nazarene
154
3,841
Jewish synagogues and centers*
146
3,268
Church of the Brethren
101
2,614
Islam, Muslim, Masjid*
75
2,226
African Methodist Episcopal*
128
2,053
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
91
2,004
The Salvation Army
101
1,721
Community of Christ
66
1,718
Buddhist Churches of America
69
1,698
Assemblies of God*
91
1,620
Other churches
802
21,804

So why did the Boy Scouts change its policy in the first place, then. After all, it’s protected by a 2000 Supreme Court decision that says it doesn’t have to allow homosexual. Why buckle? The end result is going to be a greatly reduced BSA, and other faiths (evangelicals, maybe the Roman Catholic Church at some time) with their own youth organizations. Scouting will become a faith-based activity.

 

[bibcat]

And yet, here we are. We have this news article. It is worth the effort to some. The “gay agenda” is not an organization, but a trend in society pushed by individuals. As such, there is not one agenda, but a synthesis of many agendas, as in all movements within a society. I assure you, not all promoters of homosexuality will accept the right of charters to exclude homosexuals and they will push for a furtherance of homosexuality within society.

There is no end to this, until a movement starts back to reverse the situation, stigmatize homosexuality as it was in the past. Stephen Colbert used to jest about the gay agenda was going to make him gay marry. The problem with his jest is that it is not totally jest in the minds of some. All we need to do is look at history where such a movement was never checked. Sodom was not an aberration, it was the completion of an unholy work.

An awful lot of bad things (mass shootings, natural disasters, even shark attacks) have been happening since the 6/26/15 decision. Don’t want to say I told you so, but …

 

[pnewton]

If a statement had been issued by the Russian Orthodox, they would have noted that the BSA, like the Protestant denominations in Europe, were preparing their members to embrace the anti-Christ by adopting this position.

I do not see how a civic organization can be compared to a religion in this context. I think I am simply missing this point. Is it a typo?

 

[SWolf]

So why did the Boy Scouts change its policy in the first place, then. After all, it’s protected by a 2000 Supreme Court decision that says it doesn’t have to allow homosexual. Why buckle? The end result is going to be a greatly reduced BSA, and other faiths (evangelicals, maybe the Roman Catholic Church at some time) with their own youth organizations. Scouting will become a faith-based activity.

From the looks of it, it boiled down to money from corporate sponsors they want back and less expense from potential lawsuits.

 

[bibcat]

I do not see how a civic organization can be compared to a religion in this context. I think I am simply missing this point. Is it a typo?

Not at all. Even a civic organization has moral responsibilities, to say nothing of responsibility to the Almighty and His wishes. Nothing can waive that. And few things infuriate God more than when his people put mammon (i.e. $$$) before Him.

 

[pnewton]

Not at all. Even a civic organization has moral responsibilities, to say nothing of responsibility to the Almighty and His wishes. Nothing can waive that. And few things infuriate God more than when his people put mammon (i.e. $$$) before Him.

Then I am still not getting this. What has the Russian Orthodox to do with it. I do not even think they have Boy Scouts.

 

[Erich]

I’m guessing the Scouts have been suffering from declining membership for years now

Yep. 6% in 2013 and another 7% in 2014. If this trend continues, they’ll have lost 22% in just 3 years.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Yep. 6% in 2013 and another 7% in 2014. If this trend continues, they’ll have lost 22% in just 3 years.

Plus whatever losses they’ll have if the LDS units pull out, which will probably accelerate the losses from other denominations.

 

[gilliam]

Yep. 6% in 2013 and another 7% in 2014. If this trend continues, they’ll have lost 22% in just 3 years.

6% + 7% is not 22%

But I do expect more losses this year with the membership policy change.

Most of the loss is Cub Scout boys and the reasons for the loss have much more to do with single mothers having to both work and be a mother (with no time to also be a den mother) than anything else.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

From the looks of it, it boiled down to money from corporate sponsors they want back and less expense from potential lawsuits.

Pretty short-sighted of them. They are now going to have to pay the cost of defending lawsuits that they have committed to funding, after having given up the legal protection the Dale decision gave them.

Alternatively, they could just find reasons to to fund the legal defenses, either declaring that COs like the KoC and Catholic friends of scoutings orgs and parochial school PTAs are not “really” religious, following the administration’s lead; or they could discover a new and financially convenient “moral obligation” not to defend the religious COs against the LGBT lawsuits - an action which would accelerate departures of traditionally religious COs.

The reason could be that Gates, who initially promised that there would be no such change, did a 180 because he travels in the sort of elite circles where he and his wife were castigated at cocktail parties for the BSA’s position, and he wanted to be seen as “forward looking” by the next organization he will move on to. That would be my guess.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

So why did the Boy Scouts change its policy in the first place, then. After all, it’s protected by a 2000 Supreme Court decision that says it doesn’t have to allow homosexual. Why buckle? The end result is going to be a greatly reduced BSA, and other faiths (evangelicals, maybe the Roman Catholic Church at some time) with their own youth organizations. Scouting will become a faith-based activity.

That’s the situation in France and some other European countries now. The Catholics have their own scouting organization as do other faiths. May be the path we are going down.

 

[gilliam]

AZ Mike,

Trail Life USA is not a possibility for LDS units. If you read the religious principles you basically have to be an evangelical protestant to belong; although they will tolerate Cathoics (kinda.) Anyway they are trinitarian and the only scripture is the Christian bible; so the LDS are not welcome.

I also would like to see Rowe as president or better yet commissioner of the BSA.

I don’t have too much insight into what is going on with the LDS; but it would appear they wanted to wait until October so they could hold some internal LDS church meetings in August to come out with a unified statement. For whatever reasons (my guess legal ones) the BSA didn’t wait and the statement yesterday was the result. As I said before, I seriously doubt the LDS will pull out of the BSA; and I am pretty sure some LDS members voted in favor of the change yesterday (I know 2 did not) but the reason for voting no could very well be that they felt pressured.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I seriously doubt that. They will meet in August and they will come out with a statement of reluctant support.

I don’t think that is likely to happen, based on the final line of the LDS statement:

"As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available. Those worldwide needs combined with this vote by the BSA National Executive Board will be carefully reviewed by the leaders of the Church in the weeks ahead.”

Why bring up that issue, which is largely unconnected with homosexuality, unless they are already providing themselves cover for their departure, and do not wish the issue to be seen as solely about homosexuality?

As a side issue, they are possibly concerned about dissident gay Mormons who will join non-LDS scout units as leaders, and will then interact with LDS units in cross-troop activities, such as camps, roundtables, Order of the Arrow, etc. and will be seen as further attempts by the LDS gay dissidents to campaign for LGBT issues with the LDS units, verbally and by example. The LDS church can’t demand that other troops NOT accept gay Mormons as leaders, so that may be another issue which they feel compels them to leave.

 

[Brendan]

AZ Mike,

Trail Life USA is not a possibility for LDS units. If you read the religious principles you basically have to be an evangelical protestant to belong; although they will tolerate Cathoics (kinda.) .

In the previous thread, you never did mention why a Catholic cannot subscribe to their statement of religious principles.

Statement of Faith

We believe there is One Triune God – God the Father; Jesus Christ, His one and only Son; and the Holy Spirit – Creator of the universe and eternally existent. We believe the Holy Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) to be the inspired and authoritative Word of God. We believe each person is created in His image for the purpose of communing with and worshiping God. We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, Who enables us to live godly lives. We believe each of us is called to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. We believe God calls us to lives of purity, service, stewardship and integrity.

The Statement of Faith and Values is designed to affirm the need for those in leadership to follow biblical standards. Leaders are held to a higher standard than those who are not in leadership and must agree to the tenets contained in the Statement. All adults in leadership roles—whether staff or volunteer at any level—must agree to sign and adhere to the Statement of Faith. Youth members are not required to sign this statement.

Statement of Values

Purity // God calls us to lives of holiness, being pure of heart, mind, word and deed. We are to reserve sexual activity for the sanctity of marriage, a lifelong commitment before God between a man and a woman.

Service // God calls us to become responsible members of our community and the world through selfless acts that contribute to the welfare of others.

Stewardship // God calls us to use our God-given time, talents, and money wisely.

Integrity // God calls us to live moral lives that demonstrate an inward motivation to do what is biblically right regardless of the cost.

Membership Standards

Membership in the program has both youth and adult elements. Youth membership in the program is open to all who meet the membership requirements, and is currently designed for biologically male children under the age of 18. The adult applicant must be at least 18 years of age and subscribe to and abide by the Trail Life USA Statement of Christian Faith and Values as well as the Oath and Motto of the program. While the program is undergirded by Biblical values and unapologetically reflects a Christian worldview, there is also a clearly defined inclusion policy for youth. Accordingly, all boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. Our goal is for parents and families of every faith to be able to place their boys in a youth program that endeavors to provide moral consistency and ethical integrity in its adult leaders. Charter partners own and operate local groups, selecting leaders and admitting members as they deem beneficial to their group and within the parameters of the national policy. The basis for the program’s ethical and moral standards is found in the Bible. In terms of sexual identification and behavior, we affirm that any sexual activity outside the context of the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman is sinful before God and therefore inconsistent with the values and principles of the program. Within these limits, we grant membership to adults and youth who do not engage in or promote sexual immorality of any kind, or engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the program. We welcome boys whose parents are seeking a faith-based outdoor adventure program that places an emphasis on character development, leadership, and moral purity, and who aspire to live in accordance with the values expressed in the program’s Oath and Creed.

Could you quote which parts that you believe restricts their religious principles to evangelical protestants?

traillifeusa.com/whoweare

 

[Arizona_Mike]

AZ Mike,

Trail Life USA is not a possibility for LDS units. If you read the religious principles you basically have to be an evangelical protestant to belong; although they will tolerate Cathoics (kinda.) Anyway they are trinitarian and the only scripture is the Christian bible; so the LDS are not welcome.

I also would like to see Rowe as president or better yet commissioner of the BSA.

I don’t have too much insight into what is going on with the LDS; but it would appear they wanted to wait until October so they could hold some internal LDS church meetings in August to come out with a unified statement. For whatever reasons (my guess legal ones) the BSA didn’t wait and the statement yesterday was the result. As I said before, I seriously doubt the LDS will pull out of the BSA; and I am pretty sure some LDS members voted in favor of the change yesterday (I know 2 did not) but the reason for voting no could very well be that they felt pressured.

I agree that LDS will not transfer to Trail Life for the reasons you stated. Instead, they would simply form their own youth organization, using their substantial experience base and the troops they already control. It wouldn’t be a huge change for them.

I know a couple of Catholic families that dropped out of the BSA and transferred over to Trail Life after the last decision on SSA youth. Last time I talked to them, they seemed happy. Afterl leaving the BSA,I don’t think I will be likely to do that, though.

 

[gnjsdad]

Already struggling to reverse a long-term decline in membership, the Boy Scouts have been increasingly consumed over the last two decades by battles over the exclusion of gay people, divisions that threatened to fracture the organization. Conservative partners saw the policy as a bulwark against unwanted social change, but the Boy Scouts’ anti-gay stance was costing it public support and cachet as well as corporate funders, and lately has brought on the threat of costly lawsuits.

nytimes.com/2015/07/27/us/boy-scouts-expected-to-end-ban-on-gay-leaders.html

I have added these bolded sections to highlight who has really forced this change.

This is the end of the BSA as we’ve always known it. Now it will be turned into a front group for “gay rights” and perhaps a more open hunting grounds for the sodomites. Quite sad.

 

[gilliam]

I have added these bolded sections to highlight who has really forced this change.

This is the end of the BSA as we’ve always known it. Now it will be turned into a front group for “gay rights” and perhaps a more open hunting grounds for the sodomites. Quite sad.

This may be surprising but the BSA does not take direction from the NY Times.

 

[gilliam]

I agree that LDS will not transfer to Trail Life for the reasons you stated. Instead, they would simply form their own youth organization, using their substantial experience base and the troops they already control. It wouldn’t be a huge change for them.

I know a couple of Catholic families that dropped out of the BSA and transferred over to Trail Life after the last decision on SSA youth. Last time I talked to them, they seemed happy. Afterl leaving the BSA,I don’t think I will be likely to do that, though.

I have a lot of visibility in Scouting in AZ and after the last change there was very little membership change. Last year the council actually grew.

Again, the real issue with membership in Scouting has to do with the fact that the family structure in the US has dramatically changed.